Bob, I do not wish to quibble 'points of view'. I find that minimizing the series caps, especially caps that can be eliminated by servoing, is an advantage. This is not a lesson that is always believed in, or appreciated, especially by mid-fi designers, even today.
When it comes to EQ, you are right. Sometimes a SERIES cap is necessary, or at least, a better approach than all parallel caps, even if it is possible to do it that way. Then, I do use a quality cap, usually polystyrene by Rel., even in my less expensive products, like the JC-3. The cap MAY cost more than the IC that is associated with it, but so what?
The listening results are what I seek, not engineering compromise.
When it comes to EQ, you are right. Sometimes a SERIES cap is necessary, or at least, a better approach than all parallel caps, even if it is possible to do it that way. Then, I do use a quality cap, usually polystyrene by Rel., even in my less expensive products, like the JC-3. The cap MAY cost more than the IC that is associated with it, but so what?
The listening results are what I seek, not engineering compromise.
Hi John
First of all let me thank you for the excess noise tip.... Google books is a powerfull tool and now I am at ease with the subject. I still believe Rs in a single jfet MC phono input is a major cause for noise.
IMO Noise is as influential as the loading resistor value/type in the final subjective sonic results.
Did you use global feedback in your original Vendetta phonos ?
I also agree that all series caps should be avoided because the cost needed to use good caps is very high... Are DC servo tech designed circuits developed enough to compete with simpler designs using the best caps and no opamps ?
Regards
Ricardo
First of all let me thank you for the excess noise tip.... Google books is a powerfull tool and now I am at ease with the subject. I still believe Rs in a single jfet MC phono input is a major cause for noise.
IMO Noise is as influential as the loading resistor value/type in the final subjective sonic results.
Did you use global feedback in your original Vendetta phonos ?
I also agree that all series caps should be avoided because the cost needed to use good caps is very high... Are DC servo tech designed circuits developed enough to compete with simpler designs using the best caps and no opamps ?
Regards
Ricardo
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There are people out there that claim that servos have a sound of there own. I followed endless discussion what Opamp sounds best and so forth. I sometimes use them and sometimes not. A little offset can drive the amplifying opamp into class a and for example a Mundorf tin foil KP can add a measure of warmth and humanity to an otherwise steryle sounding servoed Opamp. I use wirewounds too sometimes and i found a little trick. Most of them are not bifilar wound and have some measure of inductance. OK for a low value Rs that may not cause much trouble. I simply make the resistor out of two ones of double value that i mount real close in parallel and put the other one up side down. That cancels the inductance a bit. Is that art or engineering or just a stupid waste of time ?
Or waste of money? I've given up hope that you guys would subject your "Mundorfs add warmth to servos" to ANY kind of real scrutiny.
Listening yesterday to Segovia's 1959 tour recordings, just awesome beauty recorded through any number of devices now considered excremental.
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...And certainly through a chain of series caps, some of them electrolytics and not "boutique components" rated...
I would only use a cap when i do NOT want to use a servo. I did not say that i whould add a cap to a servoed Opamp. At ETF i had a little box where i could switch in 4 different capacitors and listen to a straight wire bypass as comparison. The cheepest cap was a 10nF NPO that i made out of 10 x 1nF in parallel. I loaded the caps with 680kOhms and under this circumstances no one could hear a relieable diffence. If more voltage develops over the cap the outcome can be different. One example was the input cap in a poweramp i made. I made it for Martina Schöner and she listenes to a lot of classical music from pre 60th. She has no idea what a cap is an how it works. Whatever i did, she found flaws especially in the voice of women where she told me that the "chest"
was sounding too small and was not formed out dynamically well. She is qualified to argue about that because she was living with a professional Soprano for a period of time. After a lot of cap swapping i found that the Mundorf ZN "solved" the problem. I do not say that i heard the difference as prononced or if it measured better or worse but this cap was important for her and our busyness relationship.
Another solution is to put the output cap into a feedback loop. I have shown how that can be done in my recent phonostage i described on my MPP thread recently.
was sounding too small and was not formed out dynamically well. She is qualified to argue about that because she was living with a professional Soprano for a period of time. After a lot of cap swapping i found that the Mundorf ZN "solved" the problem. I do not say that i heard the difference as prononced or if it measured better or worse but this cap was important for her and our busyness relationship.
Another solution is to put the output cap into a feedback loop. I have shown how that can be done in my recent phonostage i described on my MPP thread recently.
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John, I don't think we are quibbling at this point. There is nothing wrong with the way you are doing it.
There are other ways that are just as good, and represent a different philosophy. For example, Charles Hansen uses all passive RIAA. Just because there is more than one good way to skin a cat, and some choose a different way than you, does not mean they are quibbling with you or criticizing your approach.
I happen to have a mild preference for passive RIAA also, even though I use feedback in the amplifiers. But I have used feedback RIAA in the past as well, and choosing one over the other, when both are well-executed, is not a night and day thing in my experience.
Doug Self advocates against passive RIAA, but I don't agree with his arguments.
Cheers,
Bob
I have for a long time used the tinfoils in my loudspeakers....They simply sound sweeter and more calm in the treble than others....not turning this into a debate about capacitors, but to say they all sound the same is being ignorant...apart from the small electrical changes between types mechanics also play an important role, the forces of the charging pulses causes the layers to vibrate thus creating a signature...The tinfoils are quite heavy and thus more mechanically damped.. To me they sound more natural...
i happen to like them too but did not use them in loudspeakers. Can this be coincidence when two people that have not worked together much so far come to the same conclusion ? I think what diffentiates designer that work successfully in the high end from the pure engineering types ( that i have a lot of respect and admiration for ) is that they have different asumptions. An engineer just wants to amplify the information clean and straight whithout any editing whereas the designer that tryes to make a successful product in the marketplace knows that the source ( the recording ) is just a Venetian Mascarade and tryed to "unmask" the informationtion to make it sound more "real". If that whould not be the case and asuming that we have perfect recordings and listening rooms ( not to mention speakers that have a plethora of other problems) a system that has just brilliant measurements whould sound closer to the real thing and that is obviously not the case in my experience. A good equalizer can go a long way to correct at least the tonal flaws but unfortunately using it is a no-no in high end circles so the "real world" designer is also faced with opinion leaders that often stand in the way of progress. So far to the "objective" visa "subjective" debate.
Joachim, once again, you are very brave to express your feelings and opinions here. I agree with you that adding a series cap can 'voice' an audio design. Most of the time, I am trying to get the least 'voicing' from necessary caps, that are still necessary for coupling caps in many circuits not of my design.
At this time I have a selection of Elna Silmic electrolytic caps in front of me, that I must select to replace the ceramics that Sony chose for their radio. I might just go to RT caps, but it will be difficult to fit them in. Most hi end manufacturers use tin foil polystyrene, polypropylene, or Teflon caps, because they generally sound better than anything else. They are generally better 'damped' and go 'thunk' rather than 'dink' when you drop them.
At this time I have a selection of Elna Silmic electrolytic caps in front of me, that I must select to replace the ceramics that Sony chose for their radio. I might just go to RT caps, but it will be difficult to fit them in. Most hi end manufacturers use tin foil polystyrene, polypropylene, or Teflon caps, because they generally sound better than anything else. They are generally better 'damped' and go 'thunk' rather than 'dink' when you drop them.
Simics and Nichicon Muse KZ are well damped too and they give a distortion spec of -120dB in the data sheet so they seem to have took care to make then low in distortion. I sometimes use them for coupling when space or price is at a premium. I usually bypass them with a 10nF Wima FKP-2 or Röderstein MKP. I usually overzize them. Where i whould use a 3.3uF polypropylen i use 100 or 220uF. 100uF costs 1 € at Digikey and a 3.3uF Epcos PP foil costs 3.20 €. Well, i know John, talking about preferences is moot here. Listening test from the 60th have already proved that all amps that go from 20 to 20kHz, have less then 0.1% distortion, 0.01% crossover distortion, dot not hum nor hiss, have better then 40dB crosstalk and are not driven into clipping sound the same. The irony is that a well restored Wiliamson will still slaughter some presumably perfect gainclones. So what are we doing here ?
A Rolex tells time no better than a Timex, yet they still sell plenty of them.
I agree....Always on the side of music....ever thought about why it is that music is universal.. why the black-mans Choir of South-Africa fits the music of the Eskimos and that of the Australian Aborigines.. rhythm, pace an tune match each other to perfection...can't be coincidence...(not a derail attempt just thinking loud)
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