GRollins said:
One other characteristic of human nature is think of everything in terms of black and white and miss the grey area.
Furthermore, there is this characteristic of human nature, particularly evident in forums, that pushes people to think they know better, have more experience and are generally better than the people with whom they disagree.
Where exactly did I say that any class D amp can sound nearly as good as a top Class A amp? I didn't. That's because I've had the chance to hear the best of them out there and know how good they can sound. Where exactly did I say that I cannot afford to buy or make a good class A amp? Did you talk with my accountant? He probably thought you were from the IRS and lied to you.
I have already expressed my opinions and my views more than clearly. If you cannot or do not want to understand what I'm trying to say, please go on mumbling...
Class D is here to stay. Live with it. John Curl, Nelson Pass and other top guys have nothing to fear. The rest should really get to work....
Digital, in general, is here to stay as well - has been here for ages in areas other than amps but some people still haven't heard the wake up call.
At the end of the day, it's still a hobby for most of us. If someone is happy hearing his music through a SET - Full Range setup using vinyl as source, he can be my guest. I prefer to dream of a fully digital amp, a solid state disk music server as source, a digital crossover, DSP and active speakers. Some day...
Re: Re: high quality fi
Hi Mike
I grew up in Richmond, remember the Symphony from my school day field trips all too well. Is the Mosque still there? That's where we ended up hearing it; I recall huge columns supporting the balconies that blocked the view and the sound, but we still had a great time (and got out of school to boot!)
Also recall hearing the organ at the old Lowe's?? theater, where it came up out of the pit with the organist playing some rousing Sousa march or some such b4 the show. My dad had a "Liebert Takes Ricjmond!" record I used to marvel at thru our old Eico 12 watt tuber and E\V speaker mono system... those were the days...
John
MikeBettinger said:
Hi Mike
I grew up in Richmond, remember the Symphony from my school day field trips all too well. Is the Mosque still there? That's where we ended up hearing it; I recall huge columns supporting the balconies that blocked the view and the sound, but we still had a great time (and got out of school to boot!)
Also recall hearing the organ at the old Lowe's?? theater, where it came up out of the pit with the organist playing some rousing Sousa march or some such b4 the show. My dad had a "Liebert Takes Ricjmond!" record I used to marvel at thru our old Eico 12 watt tuber and E\V speaker mono system... those were the days...
John
My favorite, when installing pro systems in Bars..was to have my business partner do the acoustics. He's done over 5,000 separate film scenes, from the inside of a garbage can, to the sound of a concert hall in a box room..with no ceiling on it...in a room of over 7 million cubic feet. He's good. Damn good. Likely the best there is. If you see the Film Tuxedo, with Jackie chan, you've heard his acoustical work. All thsoe scenes were done by him, acoustically, sequentially. The entire film came off the sound floor. There is a scene in the 'bad guys' headquarters. it is a big space. It is done in the hull of a Lake Freighter!
And that puppy is in the water. One hand slap,and a 20-30 second decay. He fixed it. All of it. Right down to the subsonics. IIRC, there is even a firefight in that room. All of the sound came off the sound floor, within the scene filming iself. If you know anything at all about acoustics, you know how incredibly difficult and impossible that task was. I don't think anyone in the entire acoustics field can do what he did to that space. He's had experts (the guys who make and judge the rules of acoustics) in acoustics say that frankly, what he does, is actually impossible. In essence, their acoustic models are flawed, as he does defy their rules, all the time. See the film. The guys making films don't care, they have no idea. They give the acoustics guys 2 minutes to set up, after playing with the lighting guy's set-up and the star's eyebrow hair for 40 minutes.
Point is, We do a pro install for a bar. He equalizes the room, down to the subsonics. It is flat as hell. 100% perfect. At ANY dynamic range or loading ANYWHERE IN THE ROOM.
So..we put the 33 band EQ's in the rack. The sliders on the EQ's are moved about in a seemingly reasonable pattern. The things are put behind locked and sealed plexiglas.
But sometimes.... they are not in the circuit loop. Not necessary, at all.
And that puppy is in the water. One hand slap,and a 20-30 second decay. He fixed it. All of it. Right down to the subsonics. IIRC, there is even a firefight in that room. All of the sound came off the sound floor, within the scene filming iself. If you know anything at all about acoustics, you know how incredibly difficult and impossible that task was. I don't think anyone in the entire acoustics field can do what he did to that space. He's had experts (the guys who make and judge the rules of acoustics) in acoustics say that frankly, what he does, is actually impossible. In essence, their acoustic models are flawed, as he does defy their rules, all the time. See the film. The guys making films don't care, they have no idea. They give the acoustics guys 2 minutes to set up, after playing with the lighting guy's set-up and the star's eyebrow hair for 40 minutes.
Point is, We do a pro install for a bar. He equalizes the room, down to the subsonics. It is flat as hell. 100% perfect. At ANY dynamic range or loading ANYWHERE IN THE ROOM.
So..we put the 33 band EQ's in the rack. The sliders on the EQ's are moved about in a seemingly reasonable pattern. The things are put behind locked and sealed plexiglas.
But sometimes.... they are not in the circuit loop.
Not necessary, at all.TheShaman,
Where did you say it?
Here...
I rest my case.
That's nearly word for word the way I phrased it in my post--I just called the amps A and B.
You went on to concede that the $100 amp wasn't as good as a Krell costing several thousand percent more, which was quite gracious of you, but the idea that you even thought to compare the two says volumes about your perception of the sound quality of the class D circuit. To anyone who listens carefully, it's pretty much a non-starter.
For what it's worth, I haven't been impressed with the last couple of Krells I've heard, but they weren't in what I would call decent systems so it could be the fault of some of the other pieces. Final verdict not in. If I were to buy a Krell, I'd hit up Ebay and get an early model; one of the KMAs.
Grey
P.S.: What is it with Classe? Granted, I didn't have a chance to hear the first ones, which I'm told were quite good, but the ones I have heard were simply dreadful. How anyone, reviewer or customer, can get excited about the Classe stuff is beyond me. I've heard the big Omega (I think that's what they call it) top of the line dingus on several occasions and it matches closely the sound of the other pieces I've heard over the years. They have a distinctive house sound--call it white, gritty, call it what you will, but it's not the sound of real music. Ugh.
Where did you say it?
Here...
TheShaman said:
I rest my case.
That's nearly word for word the way I phrased it in my post--I just called the amps A and B.
You went on to concede that the $100 amp wasn't as good as a Krell costing several thousand percent more, which was quite gracious of you, but the idea that you even thought to compare the two says volumes about your perception of the sound quality of the class D circuit. To anyone who listens carefully, it's pretty much a non-starter.
For what it's worth, I haven't been impressed with the last couple of Krells I've heard, but they weren't in what I would call decent systems so it could be the fault of some of the other pieces. Final verdict not in. If I were to buy a Krell, I'd hit up Ebay and get an early model; one of the KMAs.
Grey
P.S.: What is it with Classe? Granted, I didn't have a chance to hear the first ones, which I'm told were quite good, but the ones I have heard were simply dreadful. How anyone, reviewer or customer, can get excited about the Classe stuff is beyond me. I've heard the big Omega (I think that's what they call it) top of the line dingus on several occasions and it matches closely the sound of the other pieces I've heard over the years. They have a distinctive house sound--call it white, gritty, call it what you will, but it's not the sound of real music. Ugh.
GRollins said:
Sorry to break it to you but you have no case.
The AW250's strong point are not its high freq's (I really prefer the high's of the good ol' Magnum Class A for instance) while the 2024 is probably the best tripath chip SQ-wise (with the right set of speakers, that is).
I was not comparing topologies and the hundreds of amps each one might include. I've talked about specific amps and models and that's it.
Unlike you I hate generalizing.
This is obviously why you have a hard time following what I'm trying to say.
Btw, the newer Krell gear really show what they can do in an all-Krell setup with the CAST connection. Big improvement there.
I have heard Classe amps and they make quite a match with the top-of-the-line B&W speakers but I cannot say anything more than that (about other setups).
GRollins said:
There is a story behind The classe' saga that makes my blood boil, and I will instantly be in a libel suit if I speak word of it, though every bit is true, I was there for it. Point is, that it has nothing to do with the current ownership.
Dave Reich designed and executed the first Classe' units. Dave would even measure the exact amount of solder for each solder junction. He was dead serious, and for all the right reasons. Dave made beautiful gear.
GRollins said:
Anyone who can read a graph knows the measured frequency response of a Tripath is up a couple db at 10 kHz. How do I fix it? I put an 8 ohm resistor in series with the supertweeter that takes over from the full range speaker in my speaker system.
Not so coincidentially, that tweeter's crossover response is 3 db down at 8.5 kHz.
In other words, I've matched the response of the speakers to compliment the amp's response. I've made my system into an audio system, as opposed to a bunch of equipment plugged together.
Finally, how does one know that the concert hall has the correct audio response? I've set up rooms where the audio response was all over the place-where the audio level at 8kHz (ref 500 Hz)could vary by over 10 db depending on where you sat. Set it up empty, and it sounds completely different with a full house. Set it up in summer and it sounds complerely different in winter. Why? The different clothes the audience has, among other things.
These were not bad rooms either.
Audio is a cr*p shoot. There are no absolutes. A piece of equipment that sounds like heaven at your house might well sound like crap in mine. That bass amp you listened to might have sounded GREAT in another place. Who knows?
That's part of what makes audio so subjective. BUT...realize that to condemn all IC's or class D amps is wrong too. There might well be some good ones in the bunch, not to mention that the
state of the art is not static-it is always changing...
dpuopolo said:
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http://michael.mardis.com/sonic/measure/combined-freq.html
dave
GRollins said:
Not likely that you appreciate opamp circuitry.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1255141#post1255141
Next time i speak the designer of the dingus i'll give him your regards.
(afaik, Mr Viglas only counts money, not always exact)
TheShaman,
If you like Classe, I can see how you would like class D. I wouldn't take it on a silver platter.
Start listening to real music, then compare. You have no referent, only a set of preferences. There's nothing wrong with liking the sound of PA systems at rock concerts, for instance, but to claim that it's high end, or even high fidelity for that matter, shows a lack of listening acuity.
Listing brands you've listened to is only another way of name dropping--like the earlier lists. It doesn't show that you can hear, you're just trying to impress people. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.
You've lost any credibility you might have had.
dpuopolo,
You forgot to add the old cliche about everybody's hearing being different.
jacco vermeulen,
That's a pretty serious parts farm you've got there...
Does the parts count include the internal portions of the opamps or is it just the external componentry?
Grey
If you like Classe, I can see how you would like class D. I wouldn't take it on a silver platter.
Start listening to real music, then compare. You have no referent, only a set of preferences. There's nothing wrong with liking the sound of PA systems at rock concerts, for instance, but to claim that it's high end, or even high fidelity for that matter, shows a lack of listening acuity.
Listing brands you've listened to is only another way of name dropping--like the earlier lists. It doesn't show that you can hear, you're just trying to impress people. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.
You've lost any credibility you might have had.
dpuopolo,
You forgot to add the old cliche about everybody's hearing being different.
jacco vermeulen,
That's a pretty serious parts farm you've got there...
Does the parts count include the internal portions of the opamps or is it just the external componentry?
Grey
dpuopolo said:
That's like asking whether a voice has the 'proper' frequency response. It doesn't apply in the same way. Frequency response as a metric for accuracy applies to reproduction, not production. In the latter case it's an aesthetic judgement.
I would expect an accurate system to sound exactly as bad as the poor acoustics of the original recording.
GRollins said:
Hahaha!
You are right. I admit it.
You should also e-mail the people at Abbey Road Studios. They really need your experience of live music and your hardcore ear training because they seem to like the B&W and Classe combo as well. Amateurs, I know.
This is where the "I rest my case" line goes...
Attachments
One more pic of the amateurs at Abbey Road Studios and their mid-fi gear.
Their URL (just in case someone has been living under a rock and doesn't know who those guys are):
http://www.abbeyroad.co.uk/
Their URL (just in case someone has been living under a rock and doesn't know who those guys are):
http://www.abbeyroad.co.uk/
Attachments
TheShaman said:
Hahaha!
You are right. I admit it.
You should also e-mail the people at Abbey Road Studios. They really need your experience of live music and your hardcore ear training because they seem to like the B&W and Classe combo as well. Amateurs, I know.
This is where the "I rest my case" line goes...
I have more a problem with that huge mixing console and all it' s electronics the music signal has to plough through.....
TheShaman said:
Trust me, as a broadcast engineer, it's a daily battle to keep my peers and the Program Directors from running their HD radio channels with 30 db of multi band 'processing'-including lots of peak limiting and clipping.
Why bother to have 80 db of dynamic range if you're going to squeeze everything into the top 12 db?
What's scary is that I and others like me are losing the battle.
Please don't ask the rest of us to further 'lose' the battle. Good audio is like: good food, good cameras and telescopes, or good auto tires.
Yes! Good auto tires. What do you comrades know about auto tires? We know that they look pretty much the same, some bigger, some smaller, but they are all made of some sort of rubber compound, round, and can be fairly well balanced. We also know that there are different ratings on tires, usually relating to top sustained speed, and a BIG price range difference.
Now what about FAT tires VS SKINNY tires. If sophomore physics were absolutely correct, then SKINNY tires would win! WHY? Because of lower air resistance and moving mass. The contact 'patch' should make NO difference, since the friction should be proportional to the pressure from the weight of the car, and the higher down force should match the smaller contact 'patch'. Didn't many of you do this experiment in college with wooden blocks and an angled plane?
Yes! Good auto tires. What do you comrades know about auto tires? We know that they look pretty much the same, some bigger, some smaller, but they are all made of some sort of rubber compound, round, and can be fairly well balanced. We also know that there are different ratings on tires, usually relating to top sustained speed, and a BIG price range difference.
Now what about FAT tires VS SKINNY tires. If sophomore physics were absolutely correct, then SKINNY tires would win! WHY? Because of lower air resistance and moving mass. The contact 'patch' should make NO difference, since the friction should be proportional to the pressure from the weight of the car, and the higher down force should match the smaller contact 'patch'. Didn't many of you do this experiment in college with wooden blocks and an angled plane?
That same physics experiment also predicts a maximum possible fuel dragster speed in the quarter mile that was exceeded decades ago. Next, someone will have to tell the bees they can't possibly fly, because aerodynamic theory prevents it. Why is it the simple case never applies in real life, audio fer instance?
TheShaman,
Your logic is weak to say the least...you tout what Abbey Road uses...then admit that the compressors are less than optimal...while pretending that they know good sound...err, come again?
The 'XXX studio uses them so they must be good' argument has been used before. If you actually talk to recording guys--instead of reading advertising fluff--you will find that they will bend your ear for hours about how much they spend on microphones. When they get done with mics, they'll spend perhaps an hour on the board, but then they spend about five minutes on compression, flangers, aural exciters, etc. and...oh, yeah...amplifiers and speakers. Note that most speakers aren't chosen for fidelity, but for how closely they mimic car speakers or the average home setup, where most people listen.
Your logic is inherently flawed and will remain so for as long as you continue to ask the wrong questions. Wrong questions (i.e. What have I seen in an advertisement recently?) will consistently give wrong answers (Mark Levinson, Classe, B&W).
Instead of asking does this amplifier sound like real music, you compare it to another amplifier. Instead of asking whether this amplifier sounds like real music, you fall back on advertisements you've seen--and trust me Classe and B&W are far from the first to use the "we gave it to studio xxx for reduced price (or even for free) so that we could use it in an ad campaign" strategy. Instead of asking whether this amplifier sounds like real music, you rely on brand name recognition. Instead of asking whether this amplifier sounds like real music you rely on the price tag. And, no, not even awards work. The touchstone is music. Sorry. That's the way it is.
You continue to try to impress and you continue to fail. By advancing flawed arguments, incompletely thought out positions, and slavishly parroting advertising, you have revealed yourself to have no clue whatsoever about the nature of high end.
The question--and the answer--is music. Music first. Music last. Music always. Period. Not price tag. Not brand name. Not advertisement. Not studios. Not even reviews, although they can (sometimes) help narrow the field if you're searching for a new component.
Music.
Real music.
Until you grasp that deceptively simple concept, the essence of high end will continue to elude you.
When I was in retail, we'd have doctors (sometimes lawyers, but doctors were the worst) come in and they would inevitably gravitate to:
1) A name they recognized
2) The most expensive gear
While I was glad to sell it to them, it was sad to see decent equipment go to waste. Might as well have installed the stuff in a deaf person's house. At least deaf people can feel the vibration through the floor and derive some enjoyment from it.
You are a lost soul.
Grey
Your logic is weak to say the least...you tout what Abbey Road uses...then admit that the compressors are less than optimal...while pretending that they know good sound...err, come again?
The 'XXX studio uses them so they must be good' argument has been used before. If you actually talk to recording guys--instead of reading advertising fluff--you will find that they will bend your ear for hours about how much they spend on microphones. When they get done with mics, they'll spend perhaps an hour on the board, but then they spend about five minutes on compression, flangers, aural exciters, etc. and...oh, yeah...amplifiers and speakers. Note that most speakers aren't chosen for fidelity, but for how closely they mimic car speakers or the average home setup, where most people listen.
Your logic is inherently flawed and will remain so for as long as you continue to ask the wrong questions. Wrong questions (i.e. What have I seen in an advertisement recently?) will consistently give wrong answers (Mark Levinson, Classe, B&W).
Instead of asking does this amplifier sound like real music, you compare it to another amplifier. Instead of asking whether this amplifier sounds like real music, you fall back on advertisements you've seen--and trust me Classe and B&W are far from the first to use the "we gave it to studio xxx for reduced price (or even for free) so that we could use it in an ad campaign" strategy. Instead of asking whether this amplifier sounds like real music, you rely on brand name recognition. Instead of asking whether this amplifier sounds like real music you rely on the price tag. And, no, not even awards work. The touchstone is music. Sorry. That's the way it is.
You continue to try to impress and you continue to fail. By advancing flawed arguments, incompletely thought out positions, and slavishly parroting advertising, you have revealed yourself to have no clue whatsoever about the nature of high end.
The question--and the answer--is music. Music first. Music last. Music always. Period. Not price tag. Not brand name. Not advertisement. Not studios. Not even reviews, although they can (sometimes) help narrow the field if you're searching for a new component.
Music.
Real music.
Until you grasp that deceptively simple concept, the essence of high end will continue to elude you.
When I was in retail, we'd have doctors (sometimes lawyers, but doctors were the worst) come in and they would inevitably gravitate to:
1) A name they recognized
2) The most expensive gear
While I was glad to sell it to them, it was sad to see decent equipment go to waste. Might as well have installed the stuff in a deaf person's house. At least deaf people can feel the vibration through the floor and derive some enjoyment from it.
You are a lost soul.
Grey
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