What is it exacly that hifi drivers do better than pro drivers?
Except for more bass in a smaller enclosure..
Except for more bass in a smaller enclosure..
I would say only advantage of hifi drivers is lower Fs, sometimes
If thats desired
But often pro drivers seem to have better quality at less cost
If thats desired
But often pro drivers seem to have better quality at less cost
I guess the demands on hi-fi drivers are much lower, that may allow for lighter cones and voice coils which in turn may result in more accurate and detailed sound.
Andre Visser said:
Define accurate and detailed? In terms of measurements because those are non-DIY terms and I would like to have something scientific to figure out.
Please explain how lower mass/smaller cones and voice coils correlates to a lower distortion and better Polar response curves.
Doug20, if you want to get scientific, you are talking to the wrong guy. 🙂
By accurate and detailed, I'm refering to the ability of a driver to reproduce the sound of an instrument to sound as close as possible to the real instrument.
To my logic, basically a lighter cone and voicecoil should be able to follow the audio signal, especially the transients, more accurately. (Up to a point of course.)
By accurate and detailed, I'm refering to the ability of a driver to reproduce the sound of an instrument to sound as close as possible to the real instrument.
To my logic, basically a lighter cone and voicecoil should be able to follow the audio signal, especially the transients, more accurately. (Up to a point of course.)
Andre Visser said:
Pro drivers are the usually ones with lighter cones (and higher efficiency)... which from a 'non scientific' point of view could result in 'more accurate and detailed' sound...
Interesting Theo404, I don't have much experience with pro drivers, the few I've heard did not impress me though.
Would there be some that are comparable with something like the Seas Excel drivers?
Would there be some that are comparable with something like the Seas Excel drivers?
Different markets, different goals. Not say to that pro drivers can't be used for hi-fi (though the converse is rarely true).
Defo said:
The real difference is that a pro audio tech setting up for a live show is working in a larger venue and can use more speakers. For example a typical band would have at least the bass player and guitar player using their own customized speakers. then the PA would only have to carry vocals. It can be more complex than that but you get the point -- the home stereo user is only going to have space for a pair of speakers that must reproduce the full range of sounds and musical genre but a pro setup uses different cabinets and speakers for each of the sounds It's kind of like taking "bi-amp" to the next level
The other thing you notice is that with stereo the goal is for the speakers and amp to NOT add "color" to the sound. Stereo speakers need to be transparent. Not so with many kinds of pro-audio. Vocalists want their voice to have a certain "sound" and will select and mic, PA and other equipment to shape the sound the way they want it. Guitars take this idea 10 times farther and actually think about how a speaker sounds when grossly overdriven to where the cone distorts. Not only that but every guitarist knows his low E string can't make a sound below 120Hz so he buys 12" speakers that can't go that low, so as not to reproduce 60Hz hum OK get the idea. "soundstage" is a non-issue with most pro audio. Almost all the sound is mono. If they want the piano to sound like it is left of center they place the keyboard speaker left of center. or in a larger setup they pan it in the mixer. When you have a mic on every instrument and a live mixer you can make almost any speaker sound any way you like, you can EQ and pan each instrument. The end result is that a live concert sounds better then what you get with any hifi but they do it with "mid-fi" speakers.
-- Pro speakers are very specialized to an exact purpose. while stereo tries to be very general purpose.
OK there are exceptions pro audio also include "studio monitors" use by engineers in the studio to mix recordings. These are very close to stereo speakers. Some audiophiles might even like them but to most people they sound "un interesting" and "to flat". These have a sound like in good headphones
In short proaudio is used to create or design a sound while stereo hifi is used to reproduce that sound.
I have no experience with premium seas drivers... my knowledge only extends to the general idea that the fractionally lower distortion figures they display compared to cheaper drivers means they are rather bad value for money.Andre Visser said:
Pro/PA drivers are generally equipped with light paper/coated cones, stiff surrounds and large voice coils... which means they can handle large amounts of power and exhibit controlled characteristics with high efficiency, the sacrifice (as already stated in this thread) being a higher resonance. Unless we’re talking about very large bass drivers with insane power handling (oversized rubber roll surrounds etc)... however my experiences with large PA horns is that the previous driver style works very well indeed.
Edit: I would also add that pro drivers are industry driven... as opposed to the marketing 'bull' that surrounds a lot of 'hi-fi'... good pro drivers still have to be cost effective, hi-fi retailers can write what they like on the price tag...
Defo said:
- better at heating your home
- don't play loud enough to **** off the neighbors
- more fashionable with the "audiophile" crowd
Andre Visser said:
Maybe you should go over to some non-science audiophile forum then because nothing you have posted makes any sense to me.
And you have very limited experience if you believe the Seas drivers are better then some pro drivers
Some of the best speakers built based on true scientific measurements are pro-audio designs.
To the best of my knowledge higher sensitivity drivers shows a more "rough" response
Low sensitivity drivers tend to sound dull
90db+ is probably a good compromise
Unless one wants to play exstremely loud, but that may not have to be hifi
Problem may be that to do 90db+, you will need a woofer with higher sensitivity, which may need to be found among PRO "studio" woofers
And those usually have higher Fs
Compromises
But today subs seem to be the order, which changes a lot of things
Low sensitivity drivers tend to sound dull
90db+ is probably a good compromise
Unless one wants to play exstremely loud, but that may not have to be hifi
Problem may be that to do 90db+, you will need a woofer with higher sensitivity, which may need to be found among PRO "studio" woofers
And those usually have higher Fs
Compromises
But today subs seem to be the order, which changes a lot of things
In my limited experience I have found that ProAudio items are more efficient, higher SPL. I don't think there is a ProAudio SubWoofer category since their focus is on music. ProAudio Woofers don't go as deep as a SubWoofer will but can extend much higher than the typical ~80hz crossover point, ~350hz.
For music, this makes them easier to integrate with smaller mids that cannot extend low enough to meet a Sub.
For music, this makes them easier to integrate with smaller mids that cannot extend low enough to meet a Sub.
Hi guys
I can offer a few thoughts on this.
First, understand that when you speak of companies like B&C, 18sound, BMS, Faital, Beyma drivers, one is dealing with a much higher intended loudness than in hifi.
I would be omitting some other company that makes some good drivers that are less expensive, Celestion, and Eminence
Also, durability and ruggedness are a major consideration, to be able to survive mechanical abuse and handling, to survive an “oops moment” very important.
How does that matter to a person interested in sound quality?
Essentially all of the departures from a “perfect transducer” increase in level, at a rate faster than the main signal’s loudness.
Thus, the louder you play it, the more of these “extra” free sounds, sounds not part of the signal, are added by the speaker.
When you choose a system which can easily go say +20dB over your intended average level, it is not going to be stressed with the peaks you can’t see with a sound level meter..
Within that general rule which can be also interpreted, as “headroom is your friend” one has the mechanical limits of each driver like Xmax which marks the end of linear motor action and such.
As a result of the durability issue, pro drivers tend to have higher free air resonances, often have double spiders and such to avoid instability at large excursion.
Pro drivers usually have a physically larger motor coil than hifi drivers and for a given drive level at home means the coil is cooler and has less dynamic change from power compression / vc heating.
At high frequencies, there are no hifi equivalents to compression drivers.
A good compression driver on a good CD horn mid band can have a peak output at least 20dB higher than a dome tweeter.
Unlike a tweeter one would mount on a baffle, with a compression driver, one has a driver which has a different response based on the horn it’s attached to and even on a perfect horn, the sensitivity may fall as low as the upper 90’s at 15-18KHz.
The issue of what horn to use is not clear but as Earl Geddes has shown, what is clear is that what happens in the horn can effect how it sounds and certainly critical, making the response close to flat in the finished system..
Pro drivers are not free from the acoustic size and other issues which effect all kinds equally.
They are also built without any of the glamor of exotic hifi drivers, they are much more engineering / test / results driven than an exotic appearance / exotic material pedigree, although many look stud like in their own speaker kind of way.
Any respectable driver company will have a detailed data sheet and real response curves in some standard condition.
I used a pair of the B&C 21’s for a cabinet at work and every time I see one of them I have to look. Too big for home though, oh well.
Anyway, if you use them for their intended use, you probably won’t go back.
About the only place pro drivers fall flat is where you need a lower Fs than you can buy.
You aren’t going to find a 15 inch pro woofer with an Fs of 20Hz.
If the parameters etc fit for what you need, don’t be afraid.
Best,
Tom
I can offer a few thoughts on this.
First, understand that when you speak of companies like B&C, 18sound, BMS, Faital, Beyma drivers, one is dealing with a much higher intended loudness than in hifi.
I would be omitting some other company that makes some good drivers that are less expensive, Celestion, and Eminence
Also, durability and ruggedness are a major consideration, to be able to survive mechanical abuse and handling, to survive an “oops moment” very important.
How does that matter to a person interested in sound quality?
Essentially all of the departures from a “perfect transducer” increase in level, at a rate faster than the main signal’s loudness.
Thus, the louder you play it, the more of these “extra” free sounds, sounds not part of the signal, are added by the speaker.
When you choose a system which can easily go say +20dB over your intended average level, it is not going to be stressed with the peaks you can’t see with a sound level meter..
Within that general rule which can be also interpreted, as “headroom is your friend” one has the mechanical limits of each driver like Xmax which marks the end of linear motor action and such.
As a result of the durability issue, pro drivers tend to have higher free air resonances, often have double spiders and such to avoid instability at large excursion.
Pro drivers usually have a physically larger motor coil than hifi drivers and for a given drive level at home means the coil is cooler and has less dynamic change from power compression / vc heating.
At high frequencies, there are no hifi equivalents to compression drivers.
A good compression driver on a good CD horn mid band can have a peak output at least 20dB higher than a dome tweeter.
Unlike a tweeter one would mount on a baffle, with a compression driver, one has a driver which has a different response based on the horn it’s attached to and even on a perfect horn, the sensitivity may fall as low as the upper 90’s at 15-18KHz.
The issue of what horn to use is not clear but as Earl Geddes has shown, what is clear is that what happens in the horn can effect how it sounds and certainly critical, making the response close to flat in the finished system..
Pro drivers are not free from the acoustic size and other issues which effect all kinds equally.
They are also built without any of the glamor of exotic hifi drivers, they are much more engineering / test / results driven than an exotic appearance / exotic material pedigree, although many look stud like in their own speaker kind of way.
Any respectable driver company will have a detailed data sheet and real response curves in some standard condition.
I used a pair of the B&C 21’s for a cabinet at work and every time I see one of them I have to look. Too big for home though, oh well.
Anyway, if you use them for their intended use, you probably won’t go back.
About the only place pro drivers fall flat is where you need a lower Fs than you can buy.
You aren’t going to find a 15 inch pro woofer with an Fs of 20Hz.
If the parameters etc fit for what you need, don’t be afraid.
Best,
Tom
doing it big
Heres a set of drivers out of many professional set that can put the best of Scanspeak or seas to shame with good crossover and for less money too.
Eminene alpha-6A 6" Mid
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-400s.pdf
Woofer/Subwoofer
Eminence Lab12 Generation II
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-570s.pdf
Eminence APT-150 Super Tweeter
Ive heard a home built three way system with these drivers incredible dynamics -- imaging is amazing if you don't move around too much.
Im thinking of building one for myself
Heres a set of drivers out of many professional set that can put the best of Scanspeak or seas to shame with good crossover and for less money too.
Eminene alpha-6A 6" Mid
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-400s.pdf
Woofer/Subwoofer
Eminence Lab12 Generation II
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-570s.pdf
Eminence APT-150 Super Tweeter
Ive heard a home built three way system with these drivers incredible dynamics -- imaging is amazing if you don't move around too much.
Im thinking of building one for myself
I guess Pro audio is largely built tough, to handle high SPL at prolonged periods of time. I DJ here and there and have a pair of JBL Eon's, and Alto elvis 15" PA powered speakers.
You need to rely on your gear so Pro audio would be built to certain specs rather than your average high end home hifi.
You need to rely on your gear so Pro audio would be built to certain specs rather than your average high end home hifi.
901Fixer said:
What I tried to say above was that there is a huge difference between reproducing recorded music and playing live. It's completely different.
A little of this terminology and a why of thinking.
When live one does not think about subwoofers, they think about what they are going to connect the drum machine to. Will it go out the PA or a bass cabinet? The other weekend there was this guy with a 5 string bass he had a rig that but 1000 watts at what would be about mid 30's Hz. He did not think he had a sub woofer. He certainly was not using a crossover either. Put any hiFi person would call a system with those specs a "very powerful sub-woofer"
Same with the big PA speakers they were using they did not go very low nor very high because they were for vocals. Over all they covered the full hifi range but they did it with four speaker systems each driven by it's own amp.
ChrisA said:
I can see where you are coming from with your example, but I think you've skipped the comparison of individual drivers and instead focused on a comparison of different systems. My impression is that the OP was asking whether there is an advantage with one class of drivers versus another in a given application.
Certainly we can't meaningfully compare some elaborate concert arrangement to a typical hi-fi tower, but I think we can compare a given pro woofer to a hifi woofer intended to cover a similar bandwidth, or a compression driver to a dome tweeter.
To take it to the system level for comparison, one could take a loudspeaker system using pro drivers in a form factor suitable for a home environment and compare that system to a typical hifi tower, and be closer to an apples to apples comparison. I've done this and the winner was quite clear to me.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.