Has anyone tried wire insulated with Tefzel (ETFE)? I'm interested in any comparisons with this and Teflon (PTFE). Thinking of building speaker cables and can find this material in bulk and cheaper that Teflon...
I downloaded a PDF and it tells me that ETFE's dielectric constant (at 1KHz) is 2.6 with a dissipation factor 0.0008 compared to 2.1 and 0.00005 for Teflon.
Question is what does it sound like in contact with copper or silver?
Any takers?
I downloaded a PDF and it tells me that ETFE's dielectric constant (at 1KHz) is 2.6 with a dissipation factor 0.0008 compared to 2.1 and 0.00005 for Teflon.
Question is what does it sound like in contact with copper or silver?
Any takers?
We've used Tezel insulated wire wrap wire in several sizes for years with good results as general purpose hookup wire, and for low cost braided interconnects. We prefer the sound of the tin plated copper wire version over the sound of silver plated copper wire.
Sounds good to us, and it's 100x easier to strip and work with than Teflon insu wire. The wirewrap industry has simple inexpensive tools for stripping Tezel wire perfectly - I hate trying to cleanly and quickly strip tefon wire. Just &^%$#@! impossible.
Regards, Allen
Sounds good to us, and it's 100x easier to strip and work with than Teflon insu wire. The wirewrap industry has simple inexpensive tools for stripping Tezel wire perfectly - I hate trying to cleanly and quickly strip tefon wire. Just &^%$#@! impossible.
Regards, Allen
Thanks Allen for the reply and comments. Have you ever conducted an A/B comparison? Does one offer a sonic attribute / emphasis that the other doesn't.
Interesting information...
I have some fine gage tinned oxygen-free copper that I use for speaker cable (it is Plasma Gun power cable) and was ready to make myself a new set. I am currently using PVC/air insulation, running parallel.
I think I will go up to the full cable diameter (about 3/8 inch) and insulate it with teflon or this "Tefzel" stuff.
Not sure ablout speaker and equipment placement in the new room yet, so not quite ready for this additional project on my list...
I have some fine gage tinned oxygen-free copper that I use for speaker cable (it is Plasma Gun power cable) and was ready to make myself a new set. I am currently using PVC/air insulation, running parallel.
I think I will go up to the full cable diameter (about 3/8 inch) and insulate it with teflon or this "Tefzel" stuff.
Not sure ablout speaker and equipment placement in the new room yet, so not quite ready for this additional project on my list...
No, Tezel is so easy to use, and available, and teflon such a bastard to work and less available, there was no contest. Didn't want to hear Teflon was better for these reasons. Tweaking can be taken too far.
Regards, Allen
Teflon is easy enough to work if your wire stripper is properly honed. Klein strippers take a find edge using an Arkansas stone and neatly strip Teflon as easily as anything else.
John
John
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SY,
I would say Tezel and Kynar, at least on wire wrap wire, are about the same as far as work ease goes.
And I've never noticed one sounding better than the other.
Regards, Allen
I would say Tezel and Kynar, at least on wire wrap wire, are about the same as far as work ease goes.
And I've never noticed one sounding better than the other.
Regards, Allen
Cool, but not everybody lives in the USA, and hence don't have access to the tools you mention. Like WTF is an "Arkansas stone"?
The teflon wire I'd like to use is 30 AWG pure silver solid core intended for inside the body wiring for pacemakers etc - do your tools strip this perfectly?
It's also 20 - 50x the price of www.
Regards, Allen
SY
Kynar is often found together with Teflon and Tefzel (and other things that dupont produce) but according to their PDF does not have anywhere near similar dielectric properties.
I am only going on the measurements provided and have never heard them, hence the email.
Kynar is often found together with Teflon and Tefzel (and other things that dupont produce) but according to their PDF does not have anywhere near similar dielectric properties.
I am only going on the measurements provided and have never heard them, hence the email.
Allen
Arkansas stone is a regular sharpening stone or oilstone. It happens to be made from a rock (probably found in Arkansas) but the point is jlsem is just saying, a good sharp should do the job in his opinion...
Arkansas stone is a regular sharpening stone or oilstone. It happens to be made from a rock (probably found in Arkansas) but the point is jlsem is just saying, a good sharp should do the job in his opinion...
If memory serves, Kynar is made by Arkema. In any case, as insulation, the dielectric properties are immaterial unless you're bundling together different wires in tight proximity- remember the capacitance equation for separated conductors? What matters is temperature, how clean it strips, shrinkback, compatibility with the underlying metal, triboelectricity, and (if you're carrying high voltages) dielectric strength.
The datasheet electrical properties for DF are generally not applicable to materials used as wire insulation unless they contain NO additive packages (color, antistat, antiox, process aids...). I suspect that this is not the case for any wire you're considering.
The datasheet electrical properties for DF are generally not applicable to materials used as wire insulation unless they contain NO additive packages (color, antistat, antiox, process aids...). I suspect that this is not the case for any wire you're considering.
I was going to mention this; however we are not talking about crazy high voltages or amperages here, so it probably doesn't matter between 'pure' Teflon (for example) and 'industrial grade' Teflon.
That being said, 'pure' Teflon tubing can be had (slightly more expensive, but not horrible) if you feel the need- I used it quite a bit with one of my work projects here where we did not want any contamination of the liquids we were pumping...
Multiform Slipstone Sets, in a wooden case | DICK GmbH - Fine Tools
Germany is somewhere near Switzerland.🙂
I find it hard to believe that tools like this aren't available in Switzerland of all places:
Klein Tools, Inc. - Handtools for Professional Electricians, HVAC and Lineman, Klein Tools, Chicago, Illinois | Pliers, Fish Tapes, Wire Strippers, Cable Cutters, Screwdrivers, Nut Drivers, Wrenches, Knives, Scissors, Snips, HVAC Tools, Cutting Tools
The ones I own only do down to 26awg, so no, they won't strip 30awg solid wire.🙁
The main reason I use Teflon is because high quality wire available on the military surplus market is in general so. I don't know about the rest of the world, but military and industrial surplus is readily available here and obsolete high-quality electronic parts can be had for pennies on the dollar.
John
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Well, the OP seemed worried about DF for some reason, and the DF of wire insulation is VERY different than the DF for material without additives (as used in capacitor film, for example).
Well, if it is that important in the particular application, then go for the pure Teflon stuff!
That should end the discussion on other materials being 'acceptable' as well, if this is so critical.
That should end the discussion on other materials being 'acceptable' as well, if this is so critical.
Good luck finding pure, unmodified Teflon wire insulation, free of colorants, additives, process aids... then you can have fun dealing with the tribo problems.
Really, if cost is no object and one has a religious belief in the importance of DF for wire insulation, a foam is a much better choice.
Really, if cost is no object and one has a religious belief in the importance of DF for wire insulation, a foam is a much better choice.
Well, the thread has adapted a bit beyond my original question which was if there was any differences to be heard from PTFE and ETFE. I am guessing that being that much cheaper ETFE is inferior to PTFE but not sure by 10x.
Still interested to know if anyone has done a comparison between the two.
Still interested to know if anyone has done a comparison between the two.
I think it's more important for the amateur builder to use a wire with insulation having a suitably high melting point so he can get the joint hot enough to avoid a cold solder joint without burning away too much insulation than to worry about absolutely minimum dissipation factors.
John
John
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