Here’s is example of what can or cannot be done; regardless of the crossover:
5” hard cone midwoofer, in box; with a relatively well defined resonance.
The tweeter:
Company’s own DSP based crossover:
That’s a bit odd.Can I do better?
Let’s try LR8 @ 2K:
Ok so now I’ve reduced the wide narrow wide problem. A little.
But the tweeter can’t handle LR8 @1.8K (not shown- data on another computer I’ll try to show later
Let’s try acoustic LR2 4KHz:
Ok so I reduced the directivity mismatch.
But the wide narrow wide is still there.
Is it better? Yes.
Is it worth the recommendation to the engineers. Perhaps.
Or perhaps the more well behaved midwoofer (eg. Smooth response past 6-8K) and waveguided tweeter would be better)
But then the direction of the HF is typically 40-50 degrees.
Erin @ ErinsAudioCornrer; who has measured (and listened) to over 100 speakers with his Klippel NFS, recently stated he clearly prefers wider directivity in the HF:
Reference:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/triad_inroom_gold_lcr/
5” hard cone midwoofer, in box; with a relatively well defined resonance.
The tweeter:
Company’s own DSP based crossover:
That’s a bit odd.Can I do better?
Let’s try LR8 @ 2K:
Ok so now I’ve reduced the wide narrow wide problem. A little.
But the tweeter can’t handle LR8 @1.8K (not shown- data on another computer I’ll try to show later
Let’s try acoustic LR2 4KHz:
Ok so I reduced the directivity mismatch.
But the wide narrow wide is still there.
Is it better? Yes.
Is it worth the recommendation to the engineers. Perhaps.
Or perhaps the more well behaved midwoofer (eg. Smooth response past 6-8K) and waveguided tweeter would be better)
But then the direction of the HF is typically 40-50 degrees.
Erin @ ErinsAudioCornrer; who has measured (and listened) to over 100 speakers with his Klippel NFS, recently stated he clearly prefers wider directivity in the HF:
Reference:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/triad_inroom_gold_lcr/
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Here two rather extreme opposites of loudspeakers measured in my living room. Both with multich dsp so I can adjust tonal balance to be equal. They sound amazingly similar, biggest difference is in treble "sharpness" and stereo imaging. Can't say about fatique...
AINOgradient is 4-way dipole with monopole bass.
BIG Coaxial is 3-way with 12" PA coaxial with horn.
AINOgradient is 4-way dipole with monopole bass.
BIG Coaxial is 3-way with 12" PA coaxial with horn.
I am confused of your usage of the term distortion?
Linear and non-linear distortion have no effect of the frequency response or directivity? Unless you mean that one can compensate a little to counteract certain things somewhat.
I never said that distortion isn't important BTW. I only said it will not lead to listening fatigue anymore these days.
The distortion levels of most quality drivers is just way to low for that.
It can only perceived as a bit of nuance at best.
Unless someone is highly sensitive for a change in nuance, but I find it to much of a stretch to call that fatigue.
I don't think it has to do with believing?
Each system has its own characteristics, strong points and weaknesses.
That's just the nature of it.
I think many approaches can sound great. It heavily depends on the type of music that someone is listening.
I only think that certain systems are just far more practical if anything.
Especially for the average person who has to make it work in just a regular living room. Often within a certain size and budget.
The chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
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High directivity of big coaxial drivers make stereo image to alter/shift too much with minimal head movement. Starting with very "sharp" imaging, I and friends find this annoying/disturbing. Eg. a female singer (soprano) will move from center to almost other speaker when head is rotated or turned while sitting on a chair!
Spaciousness is more difficult question, some recordings sound very nice with coaxials, but they are more critical about recording/mixing/mastering than dipoles. I listen mostly classical nowdays, both recordings and national broadcast lives (which are very very well done). With pop music it's hard to say how they are supposed to sound... I have had AINOs installed in another only once during 10 years, at a national diy hifi event (and I won the prize for best sound!)
Yesterday, @DualTriode asked (in another thread) that I talk a bit about my woofer cabinets:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-active-3-way-hypex-and-sb.352767/post-7351028
I use the SB acoustics SB34RNX75-6 woofer as my bass driver. I like this driver a lot. The Qts is ideal for sealed box use, the sensitivity of 90 dB/2.83 V is reasonably high for a hifi driver, the Fs is very low, and it has plenty of Xmax.
I knew that my system would be modular, and I wanted to keep the bass cabinets common (along with the speaker stands which contain the Hypex amps), but swap out the mid-tweeter cabinets to explore different options.
My bass cabinets are 75 liters, the internal dimensions are 29” H x 13” W x 12.25” D. I used ¾” Baltic birch plywood for construction, and the front baffle is two layers thick. The external dimensions are 30.5” H x 14.5” W x 14.5” D. I used bulkhead braces above and below the driver, and a partial bulkhead brace behind the driver. Additional bracing was used in the top and bottom panels. The veneer is walnut.
The ideal box volume for this driver is 120 l for a Qtc of 0.71 and Fb=34 Hz. The modelled sealed box performance of this driver in a 75 l box is Qtc of 0.84, Fb = 40 Hz, and F3 = 36 Hz.
The woofer is intended to operate up to about 200 Hz. I have never made gated far field measurements of this box because I did not want to elevate it over 48” high. I always felt it was unnecessary because the polar response would very likely be nearly omnidirectional below 200 Hz, and the polar response below 200 Hz is of limited value due to room modes. For simulation purposes, VituixCad was used to adjust the near field response to 4-pi space using the diffraction tool. I then enabled Vcad to estimate the polar responses.
Several years ago I performed an outdoor ground plane measurement to confirm my near field results. The two methods largely agree, although there are small perturbations in the ground plane measurement which are not present in the NF between 30-150 Hz. The most significant difference is in the range above 400 Hz. Given the size of the woofer, the NF method is limited to 400 Hz, and it shows a peak at 430 Hz and a null at 620 Hz. The ground plane measurement, which is valid to beyond 2 kHz does not show these anomalies.
It is relatively easy to simulate the theoretical Linkwitz Transform EQ required to provide an F3 of 25 Hz for this woofer/box. With real world measurements, the actual EQ is a slightly different.
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My subjective assessment is that the bass boxes do an excellent job. Upper bass is nuanced and detailed. Percussion is very percussive and dynamic. Deep bass extends way down low. Double bass, electric bass, fretless bass, baritone sax all sound very natural and detailed. Male vocals are convincing. Drum kits sound “right there”. Recently my wife was watching “Interstellar” which has significant frequency content below 30 Hz, and all the windows in the house were rattling in their frames. I have always been open to upgrading my bass system, but anything that might offer higher performance would be much larger, and much more expensive.
j.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-active-3-way-hypex-and-sb.352767/post-7351028
I use the SB acoustics SB34RNX75-6 woofer as my bass driver. I like this driver a lot. The Qts is ideal for sealed box use, the sensitivity of 90 dB/2.83 V is reasonably high for a hifi driver, the Fs is very low, and it has plenty of Xmax.
I knew that my system would be modular, and I wanted to keep the bass cabinets common (along with the speaker stands which contain the Hypex amps), but swap out the mid-tweeter cabinets to explore different options.
My bass cabinets are 75 liters, the internal dimensions are 29” H x 13” W x 12.25” D. I used ¾” Baltic birch plywood for construction, and the front baffle is two layers thick. The external dimensions are 30.5” H x 14.5” W x 14.5” D. I used bulkhead braces above and below the driver, and a partial bulkhead brace behind the driver. Additional bracing was used in the top and bottom panels. The veneer is walnut.
The ideal box volume for this driver is 120 l for a Qtc of 0.71 and Fb=34 Hz. The modelled sealed box performance of this driver in a 75 l box is Qtc of 0.84, Fb = 40 Hz, and F3 = 36 Hz.
The woofer is intended to operate up to about 200 Hz. I have never made gated far field measurements of this box because I did not want to elevate it over 48” high. I always felt it was unnecessary because the polar response would very likely be nearly omnidirectional below 200 Hz, and the polar response below 200 Hz is of limited value due to room modes. For simulation purposes, VituixCad was used to adjust the near field response to 4-pi space using the diffraction tool. I then enabled Vcad to estimate the polar responses.
Several years ago I performed an outdoor ground plane measurement to confirm my near field results. The two methods largely agree, although there are small perturbations in the ground plane measurement which are not present in the NF between 30-150 Hz. The most significant difference is in the range above 400 Hz. Given the size of the woofer, the NF method is limited to 400 Hz, and it shows a peak at 430 Hz and a null at 620 Hz. The ground plane measurement, which is valid to beyond 2 kHz does not show these anomalies.
It is relatively easy to simulate the theoretical Linkwitz Transform EQ required to provide an F3 of 25 Hz for this woofer/box. With real world measurements, the actual EQ is a slightly different.
- -
- -
My subjective assessment is that the bass boxes do an excellent job. Upper bass is nuanced and detailed. Percussion is very percussive and dynamic. Deep bass extends way down low. Double bass, electric bass, fretless bass, baritone sax all sound very natural and detailed. Male vocals are convincing. Drum kits sound “right there”. Recently my wife was watching “Interstellar” which has significant frequency content below 30 Hz, and all the windows in the house were rattling in their frames. I have always been open to upgrading my bass system, but anything that might offer higher performance would be much larger, and much more expensive.
j.
From what I have seen of your new tweeter, the dispersion and beamwidth is very different from any other tweeter I am familiar with. The kind of Power & DI curve that works well with that new super hero tweeter is no doubt quite different from what works with ordinary mortal tweeters.
What I consider to be listening fatigue is some aspect of sound reproduction process which I can't consciously identify or detect, but which makes me want to turn down the volume or lose interest in the music. If it is something I am consciously aware of, such as a frequency response problem, or boomy bass, or hissy siblance, it's a problem, but it's not listener fatigue.
The only way I would know if distortion is causing me listener fatigue, would be to do extended listening sessions with a lower distortion speaker, and see if I tend to listen longer, or at a higher volume.
I actually hope to do this soon, thanks to the ultra-low distortion Purifi drivers !
j.
IME, ultra low distortion drivers don't sound loud.
Ultra low distortion drivers sound "effortless", "lifelike" or "dynamic" . It just doesn't sound "too loud"
Even when the SPL is hitting 100dB peaks regularly at the listening position.
In fact, I suspect perception of loudness has to do with distortion.
Ultra low distortion drivers sound "effortless", "lifelike" or "dynamic" . It just doesn't sound "too loud"
Even when the SPL is hitting 100dB peaks regularly at the listening position.
In fact, I suspect perception of loudness has to do with distortion.
I Always thought that loudness in music reproduction, but also live!, is relative to how loud the Instruments (or voice) are played and the intensity/distance ratio dictates the rest. That law Is often broken by mic'ing technique but in the end all the sounds are gathered together and get spit by the LS's so ...
@hifijim and All,
Thank you for the insight into your woofer.
It looks like woofers are something that we humans can manage.
I agree that the SPK16 tweeter is something new and different. It looks to me that the shape of the cone, plus other parts in relationship to the contour of the waveguide forms a shallow throat and mouth assembly. It looks like a external phasing plug. The effective area of radiation is reduced as the air/pressure is pushed past the rings of the phasing plug, maintaining constant dispersion past 20kHz. If this thing does behave like a phasing plug that reduces effective diaphragm area and increases velocity and pressure. I am interested in seeing HD and IMD plots.
Just me musing.
DT
Thank you for the insight into your woofer.
It looks like woofers are something that we humans can manage.
I agree that the SPK16 tweeter is something new and different. It looks to me that the shape of the cone, plus other parts in relationship to the contour of the waveguide forms a shallow throat and mouth assembly. It looks like a external phasing plug. The effective area of radiation is reduced as the air/pressure is pushed past the rings of the phasing plug, maintaining constant dispersion past 20kHz. If this thing does behave like a phasing plug that reduces effective diaphragm area and increases velocity and pressure. I am interested in seeing HD and IMD plots.
Just me musing.
DT
Apart from the constant dispersion of the frequencies 15-20 kHz, I do not see why we should expect this tweeter to deliver a different system’s quality than for example a JBL M2, another wide dispersion, non cardiod 2-way speaker. On the opposite, the latter’s woofer directivity control seems important in this respect: in the discussion of the Dutch & Dutch 8c, the flat DI seemed to work so well because there was directivity in the low frequencies too.
Not to nitpick, but I did qualify my statement with "any other tweeter I am familiar with". I have never seen nor heard an M2. I would like to someday. The constant beamwidth of the Purifi from 2k - 20k seems unique to me.