This is in correlation with the tolerance of the resistors and low ppm. At very low levels of digital signal distortion rises significantly with inadequate presision of the resistors. Could be heard claealy with headphones or very close to the speaker...
Just your opinion.
IMO people who belittle measurements are invariably those who don't make (or at least publish) any measurements. So instead of making a balanced assessment with both measurements and listening those people only rely on their subjective sighted listening. Even ASR often includes listening tests in their reviews so criticizing them with nothing but subjective opinions is pointless.
Measurements are objective and there is no real reason to avoid them. For measuring DACs all it takes is a semi-decent soundcard with an ADC and suitable software (e.g. REW or ARTA). Total cost 100-200USD.
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So what happens if you begin listening to a new dac (or any other audio device) and very much like the sound and then you decide to do some measurements and these produce some less than ideal results?
Your future listening is going to be affected by your new knowledge is it not?
I let my ears/brain be the final arbiter and this is why I have frequently returned to my dual 1541 dac with Sowter iv transformers despite it being far inferior in technical specs.
Yes, I guess fear of bad results is why many prefer not to measure. Of course you can rely on your ears only but I would be a bit wary of making recommendations to others based on only that.
With due respect, would not say that is the most important reason. Do think it is more or less on the right track though, the problem is primarily psychological.
More specifically, the problem is with PSS FFT measurements and how they are interpreted by humans (other measurements don't seem to cause as much of a problem, but that's another subject). The first part of understanding the PSS FFT psychology would be that its fairly easy to take such measurements with only a sound card. Once the measurements are seen they tend to take on outsized importance in the mind. Daniel Kahneman described the effect this way: “Nothing in life is as important as you think it is, while you are thinking about it”
Why? Its is an effect known as The Focusing Illusion. https://medium.com/@masarov/nothing-in-life-is-as-important-as-you-think-it-is-while-you-are-thinking-about-it-15b28c6d9f5e#:~:text=And it means that we,seem more important to us.
Of all the things that are important to accurate reproduction of sound, one of the most cheap and easy to measure is the PSS FFT. We don't bother very much to try to measure a number of other things that are harder and or more expensive to measure. Thus we easily fall victim to the focusing illusion, "FFTs are the most important thing you can measure, and HD/IMD are the most important things to optimize for good quality sound reproduction." ...I don't think so.
The quote about the importance of FFTs immediately above illustrates an illusion, folks. Its easy to measure with a sound card and it gives all sorts of impressive numbers like -120dB, so we do it. Then our brains insist a nice looking FFT is overridingly important for good sound. Nothing else matters so much.
The most effective way to avoid having your brain fool you with the focusing illusion is not expose yourself to PSS FFTs prematurely in the design process.
I did not claim it is the most important reason but yes, the problem may well be psychological. Measurements are open to criticism so people are afraid to make or publish them. Subjective opinions (e.g. "my dac sounds better than xx") cannot be criticized as nobody can prove you wrong.
Sure, if its just an opinion. But it may be an observation (replace 'better' with 'clearer') in which case it can be criticized by another observation to the contrary.
Claims based on subjective sighted listening are just opinions as hearing is individual. Your 'clearer' is not necessarily my 'clearer'.
A claim is not an observation. Observations based on sighted listening are still valid observations, even though perception is an individual thing. Assuming two parties are interested in mutual understanding, an agreement on 'clearer' can be reached and can even have objective verification, just as it can with a pane of glass.
Yes, a mutual understanding between those two parties. But not necessarily with everybody.
Of course not, which is why I prefixed the suggestion with conditionality - assuming both parties are interested in mutual understanding. Some people just aren't interested enough.
Before any listening and subjective evaluation of the sound, we certanly doing some measurements. Voltage at the transformers and power stages, current consumption, digital signals shapes, correlation in time with different digital lines, off-sets, Voltage and current settings in analog domain after dac chip ets etc.
It is not small number of measurements people usually practicing.
And those measurements are not representing any traumatic point.
.
But those few measurements of SPL BW, Phase, FFT and FFT -60 or so db are...
Why? I dont know really...
,
In some "super-expensive-audio-social-sites" people even not discussing about any measurements, with cynical oppression to everyone who might been start something like that. They are by a rule, discussing about devices even without basic measured informations?
.
in some other sites people almost exclusively measuring the devices and almost in all cases does not went trough the listening tests? But anticipating the sound quality...
.
I simply not believe neither of the "concepts". To be honest I believe just opposite of these "reports"...
Fortunately in this forum is not like i mentioned before...
.
I am always doing some measurements in the process. Curious to establish some correlations of the sound and simple measurements and change in the device. And to satisfy some basic standards. I found relevant advices and opinions from the people behaving the same way.
It is not small number of measurements people usually practicing.
And those measurements are not representing any traumatic point.
.
But those few measurements of SPL BW, Phase, FFT and FFT -60 or so db are...
Why? I dont know really...
,
In some "super-expensive-audio-social-sites" people even not discussing about any measurements, with cynical oppression to everyone who might been start something like that. They are by a rule, discussing about devices even without basic measured informations?
.
in some other sites people almost exclusively measuring the devices and almost in all cases does not went trough the listening tests? But anticipating the sound quality...
.
I simply not believe neither of the "concepts". To be honest I believe just opposite of these "reports"...
Fortunately in this forum is not like i mentioned before...
.
I am always doing some measurements in the process. Curious to establish some correlations of the sound and simple measurements and change in the device. And to satisfy some basic standards. I found relevant advices and opinions from the people behaving the same way.
I have no practical experience with using R-2R DACs for audio, only for other applications, but whether you will hear the effect of resistor tolerances and glitches in a pure R-2R DAC could depend on a lot of things, like
-Whether you use digital volume control or listen to music with very soft passages.
-At what volume you listen.
-How accurate the resistors in the most significant sections really are; a 0.1 % tolerance resistor is guaranteed to be within 0.1 %, but it can be much more accurate if you are lucky. (A former colleague once gave me a bunch of 5 % tolerance metal film resistors. I measured some, those were all within 0.01 %.)
-How good your ears are.
I personally have too much knowledge on how our hearing works and how to do proper testing to hear for differences and biases involved to ever confidently make such a decision just based on what I hear.
Some days my system sounds great, other days it sounds bad. I know nothing has changed and have learned to identity when it's my mental state that is accounting for the difference. Differences in the quality of sleep I get can make a pretty big impact here. I think people in general greatly underestimate how big of an impact mental states and bias can affect things.
I'm not sold on r2r, it just feels to much like the burn in debate, claims are always the same, more musical, less or no "digital glare", etc... Never heard anyone say they thought their r2r sounded bad and all that makes me highly skeptical.
Seems like a bold claim. Are you comparing your knowledge to that of everyone else here, is that what you are trying to do? Something else? Because depending on what you mean maybe in some way I can agree with you. Just not clear on where you are going with it. Do you think what you have observed can't be overcome by any means at all?
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