Hello, I just picked up a pair of Dynaudio Contour 2.8s from the mid- to late 90s. It's a sealed, 2-way 4Ohm floor stander with passive radiator and a sensitivity of 85db. It's the only 2nd gen Contour model that came with the Esotar T330D, which was part of the appeal here - along with BR surrounds instead of foam - on the woofers.
I was excited to hear them in my space after a pair of Esotar 3 equipped Heritage Specials had blown me away at a dealer a while ago, so expectations were somewhat high, but I quickly had to concede: the tweeter performance in my Contours is not nearly on the same level. There's no audible distortion or output difference between both sides and the best way to describe the sound is too far laid back in the mix with the woofers even in up in the mids, and the tweeters seem to be lacking high frequency extension and presence in most songs. I can rule out power or room correction filters (none running) and the true "measurement beyond reproach" came when my wife, who has 0 interest in this hobby and couldn't care less if she listened to her favorite songs on her phone speakers or my system listened for 20 seconds and said - unsolicited - "they sound dull" (compared to my heavily EQ-tamed RP280fs)...
So.... since the Esotar ferrofluid apparently doesn't congeal and the crossovers came with durable caps, is this the just the old school Dynaudio "house sound" and the original Esotar hasn't held up to progress ver well or should I try to replace the crossovers polycaps? Alternatively, is it possible to upgrade the Esotar with an aftermarket tweeter core of similar spec that will outperform it for a few hundred bucks?
Thanks in advance for any guidance from folks who have experience with these speakers, tweeters, mods and crossover recaps.
I was excited to hear them in my space after a pair of Esotar 3 equipped Heritage Specials had blown me away at a dealer a while ago, so expectations were somewhat high, but I quickly had to concede: the tweeter performance in my Contours is not nearly on the same level. There's no audible distortion or output difference between both sides and the best way to describe the sound is too far laid back in the mix with the woofers even in up in the mids, and the tweeters seem to be lacking high frequency extension and presence in most songs. I can rule out power or room correction filters (none running) and the true "measurement beyond reproach" came when my wife, who has 0 interest in this hobby and couldn't care less if she listened to her favorite songs on her phone speakers or my system listened for 20 seconds and said - unsolicited - "they sound dull" (compared to my heavily EQ-tamed RP280fs)...
So.... since the Esotar ferrofluid apparently doesn't congeal and the crossovers came with durable caps, is this the just the old school Dynaudio "house sound" and the original Esotar hasn't held up to progress ver well or should I try to replace the crossovers polycaps? Alternatively, is it possible to upgrade the Esotar with an aftermarket tweeter core of similar spec that will outperform it for a few hundred bucks?
Thanks in advance for any guidance from folks who have experience with these speakers, tweeters, mods and crossover recaps.
Capacitors are not the key to brighter sound. Any differences you may notice are incidental.
Many like their sound EQed to an unnatural state. More experienced listeners don't necessarily agree with this. I think you'll find that if you EQ them globally you can achieve any brightness you want, so it isn't clear that there is actually anything wrong with them.
Many like their sound EQed to an unnatural state. More experienced listeners don't necessarily agree with this. I think you'll find that if you EQ them globally you can achieve any brightness you want, so it isn't clear that there is actually anything wrong with them.
Ferrofluid but terrible conditions is certainly okay for 30 years. It should not be difficult to check if too much viscous at just looking at the coil removed,, but can be risky... those thin wires are a nigthmare.
Now the cut off is at 1650 hz which is low, so it must heat a lot and maybe it became viscous (but again should last 30 yo w/o problems and D. tweeters are tanks). I just checked the Dynaudio site and they say the sound is clean and sparkling. It seems to need a powerfull amp though (low 4 ohms impedance).
Had you a look of the filter to check if nothing was changed by the former owner ?
What you heard at the hifi sellers is different : not the same filter, not the same source. And you didn't hear the tweeter alone.
Those tweeters are excellent, keep them or re-sale the whole loudspeaker if the EQ doesn't work for you.
Now the cut off is at 1650 hz which is low, so it must heat a lot and maybe it became viscous (but again should last 30 yo w/o problems and D. tweeters are tanks). I just checked the Dynaudio site and they say the sound is clean and sparkling. It seems to need a powerfull amp though (low 4 ohms impedance).
Had you a look of the filter to check if nothing was changed by the former owner ?
What you heard at the hifi sellers is different : not the same filter, not the same source. And you didn't hear the tweeter alone.
Those tweeters are excellent, keep them or re-sale the whole loudspeaker if the EQ doesn't work for you.
I wish my HF hearing was like it was in the mid- to late 90s, every tweeter regardless of when it was made sounds dull to me now...
The Dynaudio tweeters have wide high frequency dispersion, the RP280F horn beams the HF in a narrow cone.
That can make them seem "dull" by comparison, especially if you have heavily EQ-tamed the high mids on the RP280F.
That said, I have been able to measure far more HF loss (3-6dB) due to aging ferrofluid than capacitors (0dB).
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-crossover-network-wanted.314325/post-5232506
http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-20572-post-464138.html#pid464138
it seems to sounds a little recessed in the trebles, plus the 10 uF Mundorf Supreme is known to have a velvet laid back sound. It could be cheap to buy one generic Panasonic or Wima MKP square cap and listen mono each loudseaker to see if any change, or remove the serie 1R5 resistor to check if the highs is going back to life with more SPL level (if so then check the ferrofluid)
http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-20572-post-464138.html#pid464138
it seems to sounds a little recessed in the trebles, plus the 10 uF Mundorf Supreme is known to have a velvet laid back sound. It could be cheap to buy one generic Panasonic or Wima MKP square cap and listen mono each loudseaker to see if any change, or remove the serie 1R5 resistor to check if the highs is going back to life with more SPL level (if so then check the ferrofluid)
Very good POVs here so far, all are considered, some already were.
First, re power: I'm currently feeding them north of 150W per channel into 4 Ohms. Dynaudio says their sensitivity ratings are 'honest" in that peaks won't be more than 20% off from those ratings. That would put us at no less than 3.2 Ohms. Can't confirm that w/o measurements but in the 3 hours I had with them, yesterday, I had no problem cranking them to 80+ db distortion free with room left.
Caps: personally, I have not formed an opinion on whether or not (matched spec) capacitor replacements of various types can or do/don't make an audible difference. I've never AB tested a crossover update so for relatively low cost and effort, I'm still open to trying that. I have not yet opened the speakers to look at the crossovers to see if they were already modded but that will do that now.
I found this post about the Esotar T330D interesting for this discussion as it also says not to use Munsdorfs AND the poster claims Dynaudios fully synthetic Ferrofluid does not congeal.
I can't confirm or dismiss that either but there is content out there covering how one can DIY service this. Not just for other tweeters but this specific model, at least a data point that somebody found it worth their time doing. Would welcome more input on the Ferrofluid part of this discussion from people with real experience, ideally including Dynaudio specifically. I'm especially interested in whether the symptoms of a seemingly slightly too low spl and perhaps mildly dull playing pair of tweeters was restored with basically an "oil service", so to speak.
Last, but certainly not least, EQ-ing: as mentioned, I've had very good success getting the rp280s to play in a way that makes me not only not want to sell them anymore, but if I had to choose between them and the Contours, right now the Dyns would go. I don't have the ears of a 15 year old but am in my early forties with normal hearing and 10+ years experience mixing music and critical listening across different systems, so spotting dips and boosts in well known reference tracks comes somewhat easy to me.
That said, I am fully considering that the tractrix waveguide tweeter on the RPs, even eq'd, will have much more directivity, especially at my MLP at 18ft out from my front stage. That said, my observation remains: the tweeters or crossovers in these Contours are either not operating at 100%, the speaker was voiced way differently or this model simply doesn't perform nearly on the same level as the Esotar 3, as implemented in the Heritage Specials.
Next steps:
I'm going to take a peek at the crossovers now, then - tomorrow - measure and eq the speakers to see what I can get out of them "as is". If the top end continues to sound small, I would welcome more input on what to try next first: fluid or caps.
Thanks everyone!
First, re power: I'm currently feeding them north of 150W per channel into 4 Ohms. Dynaudio says their sensitivity ratings are 'honest" in that peaks won't be more than 20% off from those ratings. That would put us at no less than 3.2 Ohms. Can't confirm that w/o measurements but in the 3 hours I had with them, yesterday, I had no problem cranking them to 80+ db distortion free with room left.
Caps: personally, I have not formed an opinion on whether or not (matched spec) capacitor replacements of various types can or do/don't make an audible difference. I've never AB tested a crossover update so for relatively low cost and effort, I'm still open to trying that. I have not yet opened the speakers to look at the crossovers to see if they were already modded but that will do that now.
I found this post about the Esotar T330D interesting for this discussion as it also says not to use Munsdorfs AND the poster claims Dynaudios fully synthetic Ferrofluid does not congeal.
I can't confirm or dismiss that either but there is content out there covering how one can DIY service this. Not just for other tweeters but this specific model, at least a data point that somebody found it worth their time doing. Would welcome more input on the Ferrofluid part of this discussion from people with real experience, ideally including Dynaudio specifically. I'm especially interested in whether the symptoms of a seemingly slightly too low spl and perhaps mildly dull playing pair of tweeters was restored with basically an "oil service", so to speak.
Last, but certainly not least, EQ-ing: as mentioned, I've had very good success getting the rp280s to play in a way that makes me not only not want to sell them anymore, but if I had to choose between them and the Contours, right now the Dyns would go. I don't have the ears of a 15 year old but am in my early forties with normal hearing and 10+ years experience mixing music and critical listening across different systems, so spotting dips and boosts in well known reference tracks comes somewhat easy to me.
That said, I am fully considering that the tractrix waveguide tweeter on the RPs, even eq'd, will have much more directivity, especially at my MLP at 18ft out from my front stage. That said, my observation remains: the tweeters or crossovers in these Contours are either not operating at 100%, the speaker was voiced way differently or this model simply doesn't perform nearly on the same level as the Esotar 3, as implemented in the Heritage Specials.
Next steps:
I'm going to take a peek at the crossovers now, then - tomorrow - measure and eq the speakers to see what I can get out of them "as is". If the top end continues to sound small, I would welcome more input on what to try next first: fluid or caps.
Thanks everyone!
Detach tweeter wires from x/o board and run a sweep fed to tweeter only, without the filter.
Tweeter in good working order has got to meet factory specs, spl and impedance specifically.
Tweeter in good working order has got to meet factory specs, spl and impedance specifically.
Quick update here: the drivers (and binding post cap) are glued on to the cabinets and I didn't feel like using chisels or putty knives to get the woofers out.
I did take measurements earlier and the in room response curves are telling. Ignoring the ridiculous bass response curve for a minute:
The drop above 5K, especially in the left speaker right above the 4K peak, along with the early roll off starting at 10K aligns well with what I've been hearing. This can probably be EQ'd somewhat but the difference in response amd SPL between the left and the right tweeter seems to further hint at a problem in the driver or x-over.
I did take measurements earlier and the in room response curves are telling. Ignoring the ridiculous bass response curve for a minute:
The drop above 5K, especially in the left speaker right above the 4K peak, along with the early roll off starting at 10K aligns well with what I've been hearing. This can probably be EQ'd somewhat but the difference in response amd SPL between the left and the right tweeter seems to further hint at a problem in the driver or x-over.
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You didn't mention the measurement details, but if the two speakers were not placed in exactly the same position, with the mic exactly on the same axis and distance, their response will measure different even if identical.
The direct to reflected ratio at 18ft from the RP280f horn tweeter would be far higher than the direct radiator, far less room influence or difference in upper response would be noticed at a distance.
The measured variations in the response below 1kHz ("the ridiculous bass response curve") makes it appear the speakers are located in different room positions, and the room response is not symmetrical.
That said, your measured response of the tweeters are within +/- 2dB (or less) of each other, I'd consider that deviation in the normal range. Assuming the deviation is from the speakers, rather than the room, I'd be fairly certain the drivers, not passive crossover components are making their response different.
Those frequency deviations and the +3dB 4kHz peak can easily be corrected with EQ, but their directivity won't change.
If you have become used to the horn tweeter's higher direct to reflected ratio, a direct radiator tweeter will lack "presence", the sense of the original recording.
As your wife said, "they sound dull" 😉
As an experiment, you could make a little cardboard 40 degree conical horn like the RP280f's initial expansion and gaffer tape it around the Dynadio tweeter, and you'll hear a big difference in "presence", even when EQ'd alike.
Short answer to the original question: Sell...
Art
The speaker location and toe in of the RPs was marked with tape and the Dyns are in the exact same spot, but just to clarify: "presence" to me was less about hearing the top end "in the room". I had listened to the Dyns at the same distance I'd heard the Esotar 3s (8ft) and the delta in SPL in the mix, clarity and detail was still far too large to sound normal to me. I know this is "DIY Audio" but cardboard waveguides were fortunately not necessary, after all 😉
After measurements and just a couple of target curve tweaks, I'm happy to report:
HUGE improvement in frequency response and upper frequency (tweeter) presence in the mix. The Esotars blend so much better with the woofers now, the soundstage is improved without the various dips and peaks. Night and day. I still can't dismiss with certainty the possibility that there is some level of degradation in the tweeters or the crossovers but it's a non-issue now with help of EQ.
To me, the Esotar3 is still a clear step up and I think the technical progress behind that was covered elsewhere but these speakers are no longer a "must sell" now. The Dyns do sound "smaller" (vertically) than the RPs and I'm reaffirmed that the former wasn't a bad purchase either (after EQ) but the Comtours sound pleasantly clear, detailed and smooth now and I prefer the mids in them over the Klipsch.
In summary:
(1) I no longer want to sell them (but still might).
(2) RC and EQ = the real MVP and will probably save my marriage 😉
Thanks everybody, appreciate the community here.
After measurements and just a couple of target curve tweaks, I'm happy to report:
HUGE improvement in frequency response and upper frequency (tweeter) presence in the mix. The Esotars blend so much better with the woofers now, the soundstage is improved without the various dips and peaks. Night and day. I still can't dismiss with certainty the possibility that there is some level of degradation in the tweeters or the crossovers but it's a non-issue now with help of EQ.
To me, the Esotar3 is still a clear step up and I think the technical progress behind that was covered elsewhere but these speakers are no longer a "must sell" now. The Dyns do sound "smaller" (vertically) than the RPs and I'm reaffirmed that the former wasn't a bad purchase either (after EQ) but the Comtours sound pleasantly clear, detailed and smooth now and I prefer the mids in them over the Klipsch.
In summary:
(1) I no longer want to sell them (but still might).
(2) RC and EQ = the real MVP and will probably save my marriage 😉
Thanks everybody, appreciate the community here.
This kind of cabinet is a classic example of a permanent keeper.
Whatever the cause of tweeter being less than ideal, is a simple fix,
you just gotta know how to.
Whatever the cause of tweeter being less than ideal, is a simple fix,
you just gotta know how to.
EQ is a mighty tool, good you know how to use it.
Dynaudios certainly offer great sound if adjusted to the point
Dynaudios certainly offer great sound if adjusted to the point
Dynaudios new Contour Legacy looks like a carbon copy of my 2.8s in Walnut. I'm sure they sound fantastic. After EQ... $12.5K better though? Unlikely.
The RP280s sounded surprisingly more similar than different (with EQ applied) and pleasantly bigger (vertically) than the Dyns. I actually still prefer them but would like to try a larger 3- or 4-way speaker for my tall and open listening space, next. Open to suggestions.
A few months old thread, but I am going to provide my feedback on Dynaudio Contour 1.3 vs. Dynaudio Contour 30i impression. I upgraded because I was able to listen to many Dynaudio speakers (2-way Heritage, Special 40, Confidence 20 and Confidence 30) before I decided and settled on Contour 30i in particular.
To summarise in one sentence, the 30i was an improvement in all directions over Contour 1.3 - with no cabinet resonances, full-range presentation, and unbelievably clean, low-distortion sound. Just brilliant.
To summarise in one sentence, the 30i was an improvement in all directions over Contour 1.3 - with no cabinet resonances, full-range presentation, and unbelievably clean, low-distortion sound. Just brilliant.
Do you know if the dynaudios drivers are the same as the Skaanings ?
Does the ferrite magnets weaken after 20/30 years ! I always wondered !
Does the ferrite magnets weaken after 20/30 years ! I always wondered !
Dynaudio drivers look different... I am not sure who's designing them these days at Dynaudio.
I do know that the top-of-the-range Esotar 3 tweeter has a neodymium magnet. Your guess is as good as mine re the loss of magnetic field after a while.
These are the Contour 30i drivers - two bass/mid drivers per enclosure:
I do know that the top-of-the-range Esotar 3 tweeter has a neodymium magnet. Your guess is as good as mine re the loss of magnetic field after a while.
These are the Contour 30i drivers - two bass/mid drivers per enclosure:
The 2 kHz drop may be a function of your microphone. You may be measuring above the intended listening position. Try moving it down to the mid-woofer's axis and see if it vanishes.
I used a very nice low-noise liner power supply (to power up my NUC11 working as a streamer to Holo May DAC) with my old Contours 1.3. The sound was great but so revealing and detailed that most of us at home, as well as my friends, preferred a more rounded sound produced with a nice SMPS... But now, with the new full-range, low-distortion Contour 30i speakers... fricken unbelievable how good the sound is with that linear power supply. So realistic, immediate, very detailed, and coherent (I don't know a better word). Can not stop listening to music... I should've upgraded to these speakers a long time ago.
Depends on the design, heating vs cooling cycles over time, but in general for consumer apps, not enough to hear, at least not USA manufactured.