SME series 2 12inch is OK and 10 inch passable with SPU. Mass is the main problem. SPU needs some mass. I am not sure an Ortofon arm beats the 12 inch SME. I doubt if a better universal arm exists to beat the S2 12 inch. New M2 is not bad for other cartridges. Nothing much to do with the length of arm. Mostly the correct mass. The SME bearings are criticized. Not really a problem. Check the bottom bearing is not tight nor loose. This might take an hour. Blow the arm gently to be sure it does not stick. SME left them loose hoping gravity would work. It doesn't.
I use Lacrosse Rubber restorer for idler wheels and for Loudspeaker suspensions. It works extraordinarily well.
That's good news on M2. Wasn't sure. I had a SPU with built in transformers and S2 12 inch a long time ago. I suspect SME had a special weight. Despite being the worse looking transformers possible it sounded very good. I speculated putting the TF before the arm wiring helps. 1R per section from memory losses ( 2 R total ) . That's awful if the cartridge low R . It's awful anyway. My son was asking can you get a USB PU? I said if you could I would buy one. The Rega Carbon ( AT 91 ) with a SMD RIAA section would do it. Nothing wrong sending DC down the arm wires. If keeping it cheap I would use MC33079 in SMD. That way even a passive+ active might be possible. A small 10 uF would be needed in second stage to keep DC offset low. If MC33078 just boost the signal and do RIAA at the RCA end and another MC33078.
The SME M2-12r takes cartridge weights up to 42 grammes which I think should include the SPU GT/E.
I am fairly certain I caused the M series to be made. Cameron ( Boss of SME ) was saying they only kept SME going to please his father. When dad was gone maybe SME also. Terry and I said how daft and also do a new S2 replacement. This was about 3 months after S2 was dropped. When told too expensive we said do a straight one. The reason they were so blase was lots of Ministry of Defense work. As everyone else this is less so now. The company I work with was mostly MOD. Now mostly my stuff. I was shocked to hear that. A distant relative of Partridge.
Sorry to say I am not a big fan of series 5. The cheaper version more my thing. M series is so good.
Sorry to say I am not a big fan of series 5. The cheaper version more my thing. M series is so good.
I forgot to say. Try bucking or boosting voltage to your taste. A 9 V transformer is all you need ( it will give more usually ) . Less than 253 V and more than 207V should be OK. 2 x 9 V should do anything you want . Half these voltages if 115 V.
The TD124 doesn't need a fancy PSU's . The belt solves those problems. I think there was a TD135 with own arm. It looked very SPU friendly. The belt is both the best and the worse thing about TD124, It is not found on the Garrard 301. Best is it minimizes noise, worst is it decouples.
See if I can add buck boost link.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/buck-xfmr.htm
The TD124 doesn't need a fancy PSU's . The belt solves those problems. I think there was a TD135 with own arm. It looked very SPU friendly. The belt is both the best and the worse thing about TD124, It is not found on the Garrard 301. Best is it minimizes noise, worst is it decouples.
See if I can add buck boost link.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/buck-xfmr.htm
I've been recommending bucking to 110 - 115V range from our nominal 120V and do so with one of my TD-124, the other runs on the source described on another thread at approximately 112V. (I've used both connections shown in the ESP article depending on the target voltage range required, given the low currents required I have not worried about overall transformer rating. I tend to use at least 100VA rated transformers minimum to keep dcr down.)
I'm also not a fan of the series 5, but since I can't really afford one it's not too much of an issue.
I really like the Schick, it's simplicity and ease of use are pretty hard to beat, and no opportunity for obsessive tweaking is IMO a very good thing. The 3009/3012 S II arms whether completely original or a partial clone provides too many opportunities for pointless tinkering, but at least when set up it is consistent, nothing loosens up or gets mis-adjusted over time. (My experience with at least 5 of them)
I'm also not a fan of the series 5, but since I can't really afford one it's not too much of an issue.
I really like the Schick, it's simplicity and ease of use are pretty hard to beat, and no opportunity for obsessive tweaking is IMO a very good thing. The 3009/3012 S II arms whether completely original or a partial clone provides too many opportunities for pointless tinkering, but at least when set up it is consistent, nothing loosens up or gets mis-adjusted over time. (My experience with at least 5 of them)
Horses for courses. I have the hybrid arm they did for oracle which I got at huge discount (less than you probably paid for your schick) and on a modern (well less than 30 year old) turntable its perfect. new list price is scary for a V!
Would never consider one for vintage stuff tho (for vintage read anything made before 1980).
Basically the higher the voltage the greater the torque of the motor. We are not talking dramatic amounts. The thing you should hear is the greater the torque the more realistic the sound. However with it comes more colouration. Not unlike valve amps in style. It's a choice.
Vintage usually means better. More made and more people knowing how to make them. This certainly is true when valves. Some of the 1980's AT cartridges are in some ways the most advanced ever. Garrard 301's only command high prices because they are well beyond what should be possible in a turntable.
The turntable most do not know is the Lenco GL75 . It is an excellent turntable and a worthy challenger. I would possibly place it in the same league as TD124 and Garrard 401. I have heard it defeat a SP10 to my ears. This was with a M2 . Through ATC active speakers. They both made the LP12 seem a bit ordinary.
I think I am rather impressed with the S2 SME. It has so many obvious defects and these can be heard. All the same it sounds alright. SME S 5 and Rega RB300 are the opposite. So much is right except the sound. I have heard both sound OK. It is the difficulty in knowing what will that beats me. S5 Lyra Argo worked. It worked very well and was not relentless as it often can be. S2 is a VW Beetle and the 5 a Porsche. The Beetle is easier to drive. Especially ones with Porsche bits and standard engine. That is an M2 as analogy.
Vintage usually means better. More made and more people knowing how to make them. This certainly is true when valves. Some of the 1980's AT cartridges are in some ways the most advanced ever. Garrard 301's only command high prices because they are well beyond what should be possible in a turntable.
The turntable most do not know is the Lenco GL75 . It is an excellent turntable and a worthy challenger. I would possibly place it in the same league as TD124 and Garrard 401. I have heard it defeat a SP10 to my ears. This was with a M2 . Through ATC active speakers. They both made the LP12 seem a bit ordinary.
I think I am rather impressed with the S2 SME. It has so many obvious defects and these can be heard. All the same it sounds alright. SME S 5 and Rega RB300 are the opposite. So much is right except the sound. I have heard both sound OK. It is the difficulty in knowing what will that beats me. S5 Lyra Argo worked. It worked very well and was not relentless as it often can be. S2 is a VW Beetle and the 5 a Porsche. The Beetle is easier to drive. Especially ones with Porsche bits and standard engine. That is an M2 as analogy.
But the LP12 IS ordinary. Never understood the fuss about those 🙂
xerxes/345/benz for me does what I want. The only thing I would change is to put an MC3000 on if I could find one. But that's because I can roll out a radford STA-25 when I want vintage and I keep my TT neutral.
However I do NEED more turntables.
xerxes/345/benz for me does what I want. The only thing I would change is to put an MC3000 on if I could find one. But that's because I can roll out a radford STA-25 when I want vintage and I keep my TT neutral.
However I do NEED more turntables.
I think Ivor made us listen and stop thinking it is all a science. Listening is a short cut. If it sounds better it is better. He also showed how to improve things. If you start from a better turntable the rewards are greater. The LP12 has an underpowered motor and superb bearing. This means it can be improved. Most don't because it has near religious status. It is a great turntable that is not as good as a GL75. Then again 90% aren't better of all other turntables. It is an inconvenient truth that no one in the 1970 wanted to know. They measured, they advised, we bought. At least Linn changed that. I think it is Linn who mean SME still make arms. It made it impossible for people who preferred LP's to be ignored. Projekt also and Rega.
I have an M25 calibration. That is a wonderful PU.
I have an M25 calibration. That is a wonderful PU.
Ivor didn't work on me. The whole cult of Ivor and Julian turned me right off as did the magazines that spouted it. And I didn't understand PRAT. To me the whole concept of the LP12 didn't make sense, so I ignored it.
I think SME would have done fine without Linn ever having appeared. But we can't rewind time.
I think SME would have done fine without Linn ever having appeared. But we can't rewind time.
I wold say the TD124 has exactly the same qualities as an LP12 and more so. The metronome quality where everything sounds right. My TD124 was in Sunshine Records Oxford. Recused by a friend when it closed. Despite having an ancient system the sounds in the shop were real when playing ECM jazz that I had at home. It was too far gone so I gave it to Terry at Loricraft to fix. The motor was shot and needed new everything . Terry made the parts. It is now his wife's turntable and has been in Hi Fi World and still in the back pages.
David Price did a lot to take what Linn had taught and ask the critical question. Do other turntable do what a Linn does? The answer is yes.
Someone said something about the eddy current brake. This not only sets speed it also damps the system. Much like oil would although the graph looks different. The thing to note is the graph at that point and not that magnetic damping differs from oil. Thicker oil in the bearing can help. If it results in a drastic speed change suspect it has gone too far. SAE 30 is about as thick as I would go.
If a stiffer belt could be found of good quality that might improve things. In the old days video belts might have offered a cheap solution. I doubt these exist now.
My preferred plinth is two pieces of 25 mm MDF separated by squash balls. This helps PRAT. PRAT is a quality of real music so not a bad choice. Plywood I have doubts about. Keep the plinth as minimal as possible. If stone, bottom plinth section only. Polished concrete with as many things in it as possible should work. Derby Limestone is nice. Certainly try thicker boards. You might find too thick sounds lifeless. The reason can be found with contact microphones and a spectrum analyzer going to - 80 dB. . Do not dismiss MDF as it works. This is not a loudspeaker. Metal will cause you to really need measuring tools. As Rega do on P6 seems to work.
SME 100 % would have stopped without Linn, I take all others turntables people like Christians to be in the same church. Only Linn created the interest. MOD work meant SME would have stopped. With Linn constantly saying LP better than CD people listened. Linn also spent money. I read a Belgian newspaper where the readers were challenged by Linn to do LP v CD. That's dedication. SME doubtless would have kept a repair department which doubtless would have made a few arms. I doubt the M series would have come out. Rega also helped by selling at reasonable prices. Their turntable were also part of that due to numbers sold. Rega never made any publicity except by being there. The price alone was their contribution. I was offered by BSR to run part of BSR when young. My idea was exactly what Projekt did. To be honest I wasn't the right man for something much like Rover. I was turned down as my plans would have caused union problems. In the end they lost their jobs without my help. Oh for a time machine. A BSR HT70 with ADC arm and ADC VLM . No union problems and sorry Linn far better. At one time nearly all Japanese music centres has BSR. £6 ex works including a BSR ceramic cartridge. I think 6 000 000 units a year. BSR was 70 % the world market . That was what I would have come into. BSR's foundry made the Linn platter. Birmingham Master Casters. LP12 and HT 70 same material ( I think BSR told me the truth, Certainly Linn LVV was a BSR arm ) . Garrard also were 4500 workers at the peak. Later SP25 was from the designer of BSR MP60.
What might amuse you is I was asked by Thorens could I make the TD124 ? For a start if I could I would do a Garrard 301 first and secondly the TD 214 would cost >£5000 even is some of it was made in China or Vietnam. Even at that price a minimum £250 000 up front tooling costs. A lot of turntables have to be sold to do that. As long as the money was in place the TD124 is easy to do as the vital parts are still made. The motor would be easy and to be frank it is not the best they could do. I would have built a 301 TD124 hybrid motor. I think I would have made it 6 pole and have a larger pulley to help torque. 6 pole hysteresis still exist in ducted ventilators. At least the skills to build these motors still exist ( just ). The hysteresis is a better motor type over synchronous and is almost synchronous. In my opinion the belt exists for one reason in TD124 . To have a cheaper motor, it looks engineered also. That's what I call tinsel engineering. The Garrard 501 has a world record for idler drive rumble ( over most belts also ) at - 79 dB weighted. This shows it can be done.
David Price did a lot to take what Linn had taught and ask the critical question. Do other turntable do what a Linn does? The answer is yes.
Someone said something about the eddy current brake. This not only sets speed it also damps the system. Much like oil would although the graph looks different. The thing to note is the graph at that point and not that magnetic damping differs from oil. Thicker oil in the bearing can help. If it results in a drastic speed change suspect it has gone too far. SAE 30 is about as thick as I would go.
If a stiffer belt could be found of good quality that might improve things. In the old days video belts might have offered a cheap solution. I doubt these exist now.
My preferred plinth is two pieces of 25 mm MDF separated by squash balls. This helps PRAT. PRAT is a quality of real music so not a bad choice. Plywood I have doubts about. Keep the plinth as minimal as possible. If stone, bottom plinth section only. Polished concrete with as many things in it as possible should work. Derby Limestone is nice. Certainly try thicker boards. You might find too thick sounds lifeless. The reason can be found with contact microphones and a spectrum analyzer going to - 80 dB. . Do not dismiss MDF as it works. This is not a loudspeaker. Metal will cause you to really need measuring tools. As Rega do on P6 seems to work.
SME 100 % would have stopped without Linn, I take all others turntables people like Christians to be in the same church. Only Linn created the interest. MOD work meant SME would have stopped. With Linn constantly saying LP better than CD people listened. Linn also spent money. I read a Belgian newspaper where the readers were challenged by Linn to do LP v CD. That's dedication. SME doubtless would have kept a repair department which doubtless would have made a few arms. I doubt the M series would have come out. Rega also helped by selling at reasonable prices. Their turntable were also part of that due to numbers sold. Rega never made any publicity except by being there. The price alone was their contribution. I was offered by BSR to run part of BSR when young. My idea was exactly what Projekt did. To be honest I wasn't the right man for something much like Rover. I was turned down as my plans would have caused union problems. In the end they lost their jobs without my help. Oh for a time machine. A BSR HT70 with ADC arm and ADC VLM . No union problems and sorry Linn far better. At one time nearly all Japanese music centres has BSR. £6 ex works including a BSR ceramic cartridge. I think 6 000 000 units a year. BSR was 70 % the world market . That was what I would have come into. BSR's foundry made the Linn platter. Birmingham Master Casters. LP12 and HT 70 same material ( I think BSR told me the truth, Certainly Linn LVV was a BSR arm ) . Garrard also were 4500 workers at the peak. Later SP25 was from the designer of BSR MP60.
What might amuse you is I was asked by Thorens could I make the TD124 ? For a start if I could I would do a Garrard 301 first and secondly the TD 214 would cost >£5000 even is some of it was made in China or Vietnam. Even at that price a minimum £250 000 up front tooling costs. A lot of turntables have to be sold to do that. As long as the money was in place the TD124 is easy to do as the vital parts are still made. The motor would be easy and to be frank it is not the best they could do. I would have built a 301 TD124 hybrid motor. I think I would have made it 6 pole and have a larger pulley to help torque. 6 pole hysteresis still exist in ducted ventilators. At least the skills to build these motors still exist ( just ). The hysteresis is a better motor type over synchronous and is almost synchronous. In my opinion the belt exists for one reason in TD124 . To have a cheaper motor, it looks engineered also. That's what I call tinsel engineering. The Garrard 501 has a world record for idler drive rumble ( over most belts also ) at - 79 dB weighted. This shows it can be done.
I don't buy PRAT. IMO it was an invention of Ivor (and Julian) to cover up the colourations in their equipment that give a pleasing result.
As LP12 owners generally run linn or Naim arms they took business away from SME rather than gave it to them.
I think you have a slightly rose tinted view of the turntable market. I can put together a far more satisfying argument that Rega saved SME, not just helped. The Planar 3/RB250 is possibly one of the most important turntables of the last 30 years. Why? because it gave an affordable entry, much better than the duals and low end Thorens of the time. They captured attention and kept a way into vinyl.
A lot of turntables are sold around the world and outside UK linn has little influence. In UK he was the Steve Jobs of audio and had his cult. I was not a member.
As LP12 owners generally run linn or Naim arms they took business away from SME rather than gave it to them.
I think you have a slightly rose tinted view of the turntable market. I can put together a far more satisfying argument that Rega saved SME, not just helped. The Planar 3/RB250 is possibly one of the most important turntables of the last 30 years. Why? because it gave an affordable entry, much better than the duals and low end Thorens of the time. They captured attention and kept a way into vinyl.
A lot of turntables are sold around the world and outside UK linn has little influence. In UK he was the Steve Jobs of audio and had his cult. I was not a member.
Sorry that's so political. The market is the market. Each gets business for the other rather than from the other. People like yourself doing your own thing is part of that. I think you are mixing up how you feel about a person and how business works. It is a broad church and has many followers. Technics 1210 was a breath of fresh air for us all.
Linn had a major supplier, SME ( parts and not arms ). Linn did work for Tannoy. That's how it really is. Rega are the stars as Roy only kept the business going for the staff. He bought a factory and enjoyed it. He went on to be a property developer and that subsidies Rega . I condense what Roy said. Mostly he said Terry his engineer is so gifted he had to keep Rega going. Terry with no formal training became able to design digital chips. Terry was a musician who repaired guitar amps and recommended to Roy when Roy had problems.
If you mean by romantic someone who would invest well yes. Opinions are worth very little. Actions cost houses and sometimes don't work or get noticed.
If you talk to anyone in the industry they will say the same. That is if they sell high numbers.
If PRAT doesn't exist in real music I think a lot of musicians have been practicing too long as no one can tell. Pace rhythm and timing are all musical qualities. Often a room won't do it and it is not just hi fi that has the problem. When orchestras became larger PRAT was a problem as the time delay is considerable. The conductor is the master of that. Had good quality electronics existed in 1800 I doubt orchestras would have become so large.
I think you and I agree but unfortunately mine is a quality assessment and yours is like it is a political party you don't believe in.
Climate change had arguments like this. Nothing to do with truth just opinion. Now people say it is changing and the proof is not conclusive it is industry factors. I will buy that. I feel it is but the wording is correct. Best to say industry is part of it.
Linn had a major supplier, SME ( parts and not arms ). Linn did work for Tannoy. That's how it really is. Rega are the stars as Roy only kept the business going for the staff. He bought a factory and enjoyed it. He went on to be a property developer and that subsidies Rega . I condense what Roy said. Mostly he said Terry his engineer is so gifted he had to keep Rega going. Terry with no formal training became able to design digital chips. Terry was a musician who repaired guitar amps and recommended to Roy when Roy had problems.
If you mean by romantic someone who would invest well yes. Opinions are worth very little. Actions cost houses and sometimes don't work or get noticed.
If you talk to anyone in the industry they will say the same. That is if they sell high numbers.
If PRAT doesn't exist in real music I think a lot of musicians have been practicing too long as no one can tell. Pace rhythm and timing are all musical qualities. Often a room won't do it and it is not just hi fi that has the problem. When orchestras became larger PRAT was a problem as the time delay is considerable. The conductor is the master of that. Had good quality electronics existed in 1800 I doubt orchestras would have become so large.
I think you and I agree but unfortunately mine is a quality assessment and yours is like it is a political party you don't believe in.
Climate change had arguments like this. Nothing to do with truth just opinion. Now people say it is changing and the proof is not conclusive it is industry factors. I will buy that. I feel it is but the wording is correct. Best to say industry is part of it.
Out of your own mouth not mine. I think the strangest part is I gave you a list of designs that beat the LP12. It is a long list. As I said you seem to be somewhere else in this. The poor man who has a TD124 isn't getting good advice. How is the truth less than important in this? How we found out of no importance. Is it just who said it that matters? If you say Ivor run over your dog I will start to understand. Otherwise it makes no sense. Julian is dead. He was hard work but not stupid. I suspect he was a friend but hard to say when him. I certainly liked the build quality of Naim. Neither too good nor shabby. Slightly better than Quad. Nait was a bargain as was the cheapest CD player. Not least as it had many bespoke parts. Not totally as that would have cost too much. Not all Philips either. Quad CD 67 also. So sad Quad never made an amp like Sugden A48 to go with the CD67. Quad could have taken on Naim any day. They choose not to. Cyrus wasn't it although fine. Again Quad and Naim needed and need each other.
Guys this TD-124 related territory, and both of you have positively contributed quite a lot to that discussion, let's try to stick somewhat to the topic.
FWIW, I can't imagine many fans of vintage idler and hybrid tables like the TD-124 regard the Linn stuff with great favor.. I know I don't, with that said let's move on.
FWIW, I can't imagine many fans of vintage idler and hybrid tables like the TD-124 regard the Linn stuff with great favor.. I know I don't, with that said let's move on.
And TD124 came first. Before that Garrard 301. TD124 is a second look and a very logical one. Then comes the AR turntable. That mostly are the origins of the spices. The AR so successfully redefined how cheaply a turntable could be built as to kill off clones of 301 and TD124. Garrard had tooling so changed 301 to 401. Strangely Garrard claimed 401 to have a different designer. 90% of 301 parts are near identical and the 10% extras. Stylist word be my word. If interested 401'as with 16 watt motors are the better buys. A revision back to 301 torque levels. The designer of the AR wanted something cheaper to help sell his speakers. Something with low rumble and a low price. The problem the AR and clones have is the belt that is so good at absorbing vibration will do the same to musical vibration. That is just the laws of physicals displayed by a Newton's Cradle . Thus a LP12 will have less timing rhythm and whatever.
How do people with TD124 regard a LP12? I suspect as something much like an AR which would do fine as a second turntable. And that would be either LP12 and AR. TD160/125 also. As said before if a stiffer belt can be sourced for TD124 I suspect bass will increase. Some use tape leader . I doubt it would grip over a small distance. Grundig had fabric backed belts. Kevlar comes to mind if it could be sourced it belt form to back the TD124 original.
Be very clear about one thing. When belt drives it was survival of the cheapest. Belts drives are so much cheaper to make. Also they can be working in an afternoon. Idler drives take years. The quickest belt drive Terry and I got going in 20 minutes from bits of metal about the right size in the useful box. It is now called PRC 6 etc. That's all it needed. It is a record cleaning machine. The rest took since 1962. The machine was cloned recently with our approval and as yet that is the one thing that is wrong. The belt drive. We even sent an example.
How do people with TD124 regard a LP12? I suspect as something much like an AR which would do fine as a second turntable. And that would be either LP12 and AR. TD160/125 also. As said before if a stiffer belt can be sourced for TD124 I suspect bass will increase. Some use tape leader . I doubt it would grip over a small distance. Grundig had fabric backed belts. Kevlar comes to mind if it could be sourced it belt form to back the TD124 original.
Be very clear about one thing. When belt drives it was survival of the cheapest. Belts drives are so much cheaper to make. Also they can be working in an afternoon. Idler drives take years. The quickest belt drive Terry and I got going in 20 minutes from bits of metal about the right size in the useful box. It is now called PRC 6 etc. That's all it needed. It is a record cleaning machine. The rest took since 1962. The machine was cloned recently with our approval and as yet that is the one thing that is wrong. The belt drive. We even sent an example.
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