I expect this has been discussed but the search is not working for me.
Regarding if a Solid State Relay for an amplifier mains power switch degrades the musical sound quality from the loud speakers during music play?
Everything else I've used does in the various, but generally very revealing Hi-Fi systems I've tested with.
Have you personally tried an SSR and what was the effect on the sound from your loudspeakers. Did it have a negative effect, if so what? How did it compare to relays, mechanical switches, mercury switches, huge contactors, anything else you tried?
Please let me know what methods have been found to be the most transparent way to switch the amplifiers mains power on / off.
For switching on/off power to domestic amplifiers, e.g., 100W to 300W per channel stereo and mono amplifiers. 500 to 1000VA Transformer, 40,000 to 100,000uF. UK 240 Volts 50 Hz AC.
Whilst there are a lot of people who's very limited experience has them believe that cables, plugs, switches, have no effect, others know the fact that they all do modify the music, and sometimes in a big way.
I've been making mains cables and attempting to get a transparent mains supply for decades.
The best by very far that the test system sounded was to solder a 25mm² 'super spur' direct to the amplifier transformer with no plugs, switches, fuses, tracks, anything, other than an appropriate fuse at the meter board after the distribution block in it's single carrier, that also acted as the switch by simply pulling it out of it's carrier. Neutral with no switch, just going into the distribution block. The installation being compliant with the UK 16th edition regulations.
Obviously that's not a practical way to operate a domestic hi-fi, so I made and inserted various switches at the amplifier between the spur and the transformer, all had a very disappointing and damaging effects on the tonal balance and realism of the sound quality.
Also that means soft starting and DC, etc., protection that cuts the mains supply is not possible without severe compromise of the sound quality.
I made a 16 pole main relay, contacts bridged with 2mm² copper rod at the contacts, hopeless.
Spent £70 for a high current mercury switch from industrial cookers, just as bad as the multi pole relay.
I somehow fitted and soldered the 25mm² conductors into an IEC plug with the socket pins soldered to the transformer lead in wires, terrible. IEC plugs for me have been bad for the sound, even the ridiculously expensive ones.
So, to my request for help and the point of this post....
I've not yet tried sold state relays.
The high repetitive current ones are expensive and I don't want to waste a further load of money if the tests have already been done and the results were not any good.
Thanks. 🙂
Note: My personal preference is that this thread is maintained as an informative useful resource for anyone looking for information.
To keep it tight, clean and meaningful the chaff has to go or it dilutes the meaningful content about the subject of my enquiry.
Regarding if a Solid State Relay for an amplifier mains power switch degrades the musical sound quality from the loud speakers during music play?
Everything else I've used does in the various, but generally very revealing Hi-Fi systems I've tested with.
Have you personally tried an SSR and what was the effect on the sound from your loudspeakers. Did it have a negative effect, if so what? How did it compare to relays, mechanical switches, mercury switches, huge contactors, anything else you tried?
Please let me know what methods have been found to be the most transparent way to switch the amplifiers mains power on / off.
For switching on/off power to domestic amplifiers, e.g., 100W to 300W per channel stereo and mono amplifiers. 500 to 1000VA Transformer, 40,000 to 100,000uF. UK 240 Volts 50 Hz AC.
Whilst there are a lot of people who's very limited experience has them believe that cables, plugs, switches, have no effect, others know the fact that they all do modify the music, and sometimes in a big way.
I've been making mains cables and attempting to get a transparent mains supply for decades.
The best by very far that the test system sounded was to solder a 25mm² 'super spur' direct to the amplifier transformer with no plugs, switches, fuses, tracks, anything, other than an appropriate fuse at the meter board after the distribution block in it's single carrier, that also acted as the switch by simply pulling it out of it's carrier. Neutral with no switch, just going into the distribution block. The installation being compliant with the UK 16th edition regulations.
Obviously that's not a practical way to operate a domestic hi-fi, so I made and inserted various switches at the amplifier between the spur and the transformer, all had a very disappointing and damaging effects on the tonal balance and realism of the sound quality.
Also that means soft starting and DC, etc., protection that cuts the mains supply is not possible without severe compromise of the sound quality.
I made a 16 pole main relay, contacts bridged with 2mm² copper rod at the contacts, hopeless.
Spent £70 for a high current mercury switch from industrial cookers, just as bad as the multi pole relay.
I somehow fitted and soldered the 25mm² conductors into an IEC plug with the socket pins soldered to the transformer lead in wires, terrible. IEC plugs for me have been bad for the sound, even the ridiculously expensive ones.
So, to my request for help and the point of this post....
I've not yet tried sold state relays.
The high repetitive current ones are expensive and I don't want to waste a further load of money if the tests have already been done and the results were not any good.
Thanks. 🙂
Note: My personal preference is that this thread is maintained as an informative useful resource for anyone looking for information.
To keep it tight, clean and meaningful the chaff has to go or it dilutes the meaningful content about the subject of my enquiry.
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This will not happen on this diyAudio. This is a public forum were any member is allowed to post in any thread as long as it is on topic and remains within the rules.
It's matter of perspective Ian. There are those who consider post # 1 ignorant drivel ;-)
The nice thing about diyaudio is that there is no censorship as long as the exchanges are civil.
Works for me.
Of course you can open a manufacturer's thread and there you can control which posts are allowed and remove those you don't like.
That censorship is allowed. Not sure what the requirement is for opening a manufacturers thread, must be somewhere in the rule book.
Jan
The nice thing about diyaudio is that there is no censorship as long as the exchanges are civil.
Works for me.
Of course you can open a manufacturer's thread and there you can control which posts are allowed and remove those you don't like.
That censorship is allowed. Not sure what the requirement is for opening a manufacturers thread, must be somewhere in the rule book.
Jan
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Usually the responses are not civil.
But Jan, anyone not overly deaf and with a revealing system, in the UK anyway, can instantly hear the effect of changes to the mains supply's parts. 100% of all the many Hi-Fi people I know and have know can very easily hears the changes. Usually very big changes. My 90 year old nan with a hearing aid had no problem hearing changes and telling me which she preferred. And to two pals who can't hear anything above 10kHz, they both steadily improved their mains supplies over the years with great results to their sound.
There are measurements taken, graphs posted, books and articles written. Showing alterations in noise, sine wave, current delivery. It's not a subjective thing, not a belief system.
A high end DSD wide recording studio I know even has / had state of the art recordings demonstrating the sonic alternations, and even with the different plating on same IEC plugs, done using good scientific method, no random guessing. No magic ears or great memory required, just align the samples and toggle between them, it's all laid bare for even the most sceptical or / and dumbest individuals.
But Jan, anyone not overly deaf and with a revealing system, in the UK anyway, can instantly hear the effect of changes to the mains supply's parts. 100% of all the many Hi-Fi people I know and have know can very easily hears the changes. Usually very big changes. My 90 year old nan with a hearing aid had no problem hearing changes and telling me which she preferred. And to two pals who can't hear anything above 10kHz, they both steadily improved their mains supplies over the years with great results to their sound.
There are measurements taken, graphs posted, books and articles written. Showing alterations in noise, sine wave, current delivery. It's not a subjective thing, not a belief system.
A high end DSD wide recording studio I know even has / had state of the art recordings demonstrating the sonic alternations, and even with the different plating on same IEC plugs, done using good scientific method, no random guessing. No magic ears or great memory required, just align the samples and toggle between them, it's all laid bare for even the most sceptical or / and dumbest individuals.
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Well, 6 answers and none on the subject.
IanAS, why did you add the phrase that annoys everyone instead of staying on the technical side ?
Best wishes for the New Year and a new beginning !
IanAS, why did you add the phrase that annoys everyone instead of staying on the technical side ?
Best wishes for the New Year and a new beginning !
When an amplifier draws current its not drawing steady DC at low current.
It draws current at only the crests of the AC sine wave. 100 times a second. And for only about 10% or so of the crest.
So its drawing for only 0.001 seconds each second.
So that's lot of current.
And it has to start to move, move, stop moving, in a very short time.
It draws current at only the crests of the AC sine wave. 100 times a second. And for only about 10% or so of the crest.
So its drawing for only 0.001 seconds each second.
So that's lot of current.
And it has to start to move, move, stop moving, in a very short time.
No, this is purely subjective, and cannot be relied upon. If I am of the opinion this is BS, surely I will not be able to hear it.
You and your friends will surely be able to hear it though.
The operative word here is 'perception', not hearing acuity.
And this is exactly why all such threads end in a train wreck. People just don't accept the way perception works, so emotions run high and deteriorate in swearing and telling the other guy he's stupid, deaf or worse. Which you, implicitly, already call anybody not agreeing with you. See?
You're on your own here, as long as it lasts.
Jan
I think those figures are a bit suspect tbh
If the diodes in the bridge conduct for say 3ms on each half cycle then you are seeing 100 such 'conductions' per second which means the transformer is delivering current for around 0.3 seconds per second.
Have you never tried?
It's not about perception. It's physics and maths. Someone makes a recording of an acoustic guitar. Played back on a few systems it doesn't sound the same as the original. If a wave analysis is done with not ears and brain but equipment of lower quality that can make 2 dimensional prints, then the same of the play backs, the differences can be seen with eyes and brain. Developing the transduction systems will yield results nearer to the original guitar, that can be seen.
Yes I agree with you in so much that different people hear differently, but in my experience is there is a general agreement about which is nearest to the original. It's usually one with the best components and mains supply, where all the distortion sources have been lowered as far as can be done for the budget.
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So what's the physics and math then? You mention it then again go back to subjective perception. Just mentioning 'physics and math' doesn't do anything.
Rationally approached, I would look at the 'signal' the mains supplies to your transformer, then try to find out in which way that 'signal' changes with various measures like other cables, different switches etc, then try to link that to the results of a well controlled listening test.
Anything else is personal subjective opinion.
Which is fine and can be enjoyable, but should not be forced upon others as a sort of truth.
Jan
I don't think this is correct. The amp draws a DC current, depending on its bias setting.
The transformer draws current as you said, topping up the reservoir cap per mains cycle.
That, btw is the reason you will see that the mains voltage shows cut-off tops, because that is where the load is when the rectifiers open up.
Jan
A solid state relay will have a volt or two of loss across it. But the path you're on will never have an end.
IIRC, I read that a long time ago in a technical book, not hearsay on a forum, I forget where or would quote the source. And that it's the main res caps that pull the current from the mains supply.
If they're pulling a current for a short time through several different impedances, then what's the result? Is it that smaller voltage waves are created on a carrier wave?
Me too 🙂 But alas, I dont have access the equipment that can do that. I was hoping some people here at DIY would have and the results are posted somewhere. 🙂
🙂
What effect does it have to the sound though, better or worse than relays and mechanical switches?
When I run out of budget 🙁
Yes if they're as poor 'sounding' as relays and switches. Unless I use latching relays. But so far I don't like they negative effect.
Have to compared a SSR with other types of switch?
At least some SSR's can give off mechanical hum, which amplified by the chassis. They do on coffee machines anyway.