Hi Guys,
All manufacturing is facing hikes in all major base materials. Copper, steel, Alu, oil based materials, you name it.......its going up in price as demand out-strips supply.
For example, I''m now paying my gold plating vendor 50% more this month to finish connectors, 120% increase in plating costs over the last year!
The audio industry (along with many others) has to clean up its act and start making products that better answer customers needs without bloating out on materials. Consumers need to more think carefully about future purchases. Many of us have family, kids, grandkids so what legacy are leaving these coming generations?
A few months ago, I posted a pic on a thread but few followed its meaning. This time its even more relevant. Take a look at the pic, it helps to illustrate the potential future for full range, not only from the cost point of view, but more important, from the perspective of helping to use resources more wisely.
Its interesting to see that on Diyaudio, the Multiway speaker section attracts around 3 times more member viewings than this full-range forum. My hope is to see this trend reverse. The future manufacturing/consumer situation is clear. We all have to learn to: "do more with less".
Cheers
Mark.
All manufacturing is facing hikes in all major base materials. Copper, steel, Alu, oil based materials, you name it.......its going up in price as demand out-strips supply.
For example, I''m now paying my gold plating vendor 50% more this month to finish connectors, 120% increase in plating costs over the last year!
The audio industry (along with many others) has to clean up its act and start making products that better answer customers needs without bloating out on materials. Consumers need to more think carefully about future purchases. Many of us have family, kids, grandkids so what legacy are leaving these coming generations?
A few months ago, I posted a pic on a thread but few followed its meaning. This time its even more relevant. Take a look at the pic, it helps to illustrate the potential future for full range, not only from the cost point of view, but more important, from the perspective of helping to use resources more wisely.
Its interesting to see that on Diyaudio, the Multiway speaker section attracts around 3 times more member viewings than this full-range forum. My hope is to see this trend reverse. The future manufacturing/consumer situation is clear. We all have to learn to: "do more with less".
Cheers
Mark.
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My concern with "doing more with less" in anything, not just in relation to this, is that it's an approach based on quantum, not a solution. Sooner or later, you gonna run out.
It's not really about using more or less materials. It's a problem of overall sustainability.
If i use one driver instead of two, great. In twice the time, i'll have used the same number. Surely it's about what happens to all that resource in the full lifecycle?
It's not really about using more or less materials. It's a problem of overall sustainability.
If i use one driver instead of two, great. In twice the time, i'll have used the same number. Surely it's about what happens to all that resource in the full lifecycle?
It's a problem of Recyclonomics, when we waste resources planning for fast upgrade of mass-produced goods. The whole industry lives now in such mode, wasting more and more. The result of increased prices for materials will lead to more wasteful Recyclonomics: cheaper production will have even shorter life consuming more resources.
Hi M,
While in theory your right.....but the process has to start with changing the mind-set of manufacturing and consumerism. "Doing more with less" is a good start. Its not practical for many industries to jump 100% into sustainability. We're some way off being able to convert all consumer products to use only sustained materials.
Ignoring gains in manufacturing efficiency and better use of materials simply to satisfy the purist sustainability argument at this stage is unwise.
Regarding product life-cycles. Now we're into the potentially more important element of the sustainability issue. The current trend of buy, use, then throw away consumerism isn't sustainable. There is a major argument for looking at how to make products more upgradable (keep the main components), rather than totally relying on potentially energy hungry re-cycling, one that I'm already working on.
Mark.
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I don't see 'doing more with less' representing a change of mindset. It's the same mindset continued, under new circumstances.
Don't get me wrong, i am not for a second suggesting a better "sustainable" solution exists. That is a rather deeper problem, a human problem. I just wouldn't want myself taking rather superficial adjustments as something they're not. Where some may be able to derive comfort from such 'change' as they consider future generations, personally, i cannot.
OK i forgot, this is supposed to be an audio forum (!)...enough from me
Having said that, i do love full range for many, many other reasons.
All the best.
Don't get me wrong, i am not for a second suggesting a better "sustainable" solution exists. That is a rather deeper problem, a human problem. I just wouldn't want myself taking rather superficial adjustments as something they're not. Where some may be able to derive comfort from such 'change' as they consider future generations, personally, i cannot.
OK i forgot, this is supposed to be an audio forum (!)...enough from me
Having said that, i do love full range for many, many other reasons.
All the best.
These recent posts are very relevant to this thread. They point to the reasons for the price hikes. Audio is not immune from the current situation so all DIYers are directly affected.
If these recent posts are considered too off-topic for this part of the forum, I'm more than happy for members to start a thread on my Markaudio section on these issues.
Cheers
Mark.
If these recent posts are considered too off-topic for this part of the forum, I'm more than happy for members to start a thread on my Markaudio section on these issues.
Cheers
Mark.
Mark, there's one thing we care more: Are you going to increase the retail price of your drivers due to increased production cost? ;-)
I know business is tough, but still hope it's not going to stop too many new comers from getting involved in this hobby!
I know business is tough, but still hope it's not going to stop too many new comers from getting involved in this hobby!
Hi Boris,
How are you doing?
I'd best answer this question in the Markaudio section.
As this thread references TB, I've kept my comments "general" to illustrate the reasons for the current price hikes, tried to illustrate the challenges and suggest a greater presence for full-rangers in the future audio marketplace.
Please feel free to start a thread on this topic in the Markaudio section.
Cheers
Mark.
Well I think both the TBs i own, 2x w3-1285sg, 6xw2-800sl, and pretty much equal, except perhaps in outright definition, and represent pretty much equal value for money to the A5's i have. But i suspect smaller manufacturers have higher QC typically, and probably slower more refined processes, and in that way the MA drivers are incredible value. I have to balance this by saying that the TBs are easily listenable, even after only maybe 300hrs run in. after the same time the A5s still seem to need a touch more perhaps. As far as im concerned all the drivers ive mentioned are great! thats why ive got them 😀
And i would still pay if i wanted some more for that matter.
was involved with a MW PMG for wind generation, ..im sure neo is a factor in its seemingly becoming far less of an avenue to create revenue. For that matter the cost of copper alone is high enough.....oil for rubber.....yada yada
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Gentlemen, it would appear the prices are on the decrease again.
Both BluePlanet and Parts Express are showing large reductions in Tang Band prices.
Both BluePlanet and Parts Express are showing large reductions in Tang Band prices.
They are still quite a bit more expensive then they used to be. Sigh...
Maybe it's time to go back to Ferrite/Ceramic.
Maybe it's time to go back to Ferrite/Ceramic.
Not much of a hardship. Neodymium does have some advantages (although it's no panacea & has issues just as other materials do), but as far as wideband drivers go, with a few exceptions, it has primarily been used for marketing purposes.
I can see spending the big bucks on neodymium for tweeters when size does matter. PA woofers were weight really matters and other various things. My little 5" woofers in my garage arrays do show an issue--the very small neo magnets get warm which is not something I'm used to. Figure the huge mass of ceramic tends to be a better option with that configuration?
When I build speakers, I tend to build them to last for at least 30 years. No foam surrounds, use poly caps so they don't dry out and the boxes tend to be quite "overbuilt".
One of the local kids stopped in the garage and asked how old the glowing green Pioneer receiver was...he laughed when I told him 1980. "What a piece of @#@$!" and he laughed. I presented him the question "How can anything that still works after over 30 years be considered a piece of !@#!"? Sure, it does not have an iPod input...heck, it don't even have a CD input! Should I put a label on it that says CD instead of "Aux" and MP3 instead of "tape"? He then lost his mind when I pressed eject on the 1993 Laser Disc player and that huge tray slid out...
Speakers are like tools, get the durable stuff up front and they will be a joy to use while lasting for many decades to come. My 1999 JBL computer speakers are getting flaky--great sound (for what they are) but I'm thinking a Topping USB T-Amp and MA 4" full ranges to replace them. The Topping looks to use decent parts?
You can only do more with less if the "less" will last for much "more" time.
When I build speakers, I tend to build them to last for at least 30 years. No foam surrounds, use poly caps so they don't dry out and the boxes tend to be quite "overbuilt".
One of the local kids stopped in the garage and asked how old the glowing green Pioneer receiver was...he laughed when I told him 1980. "What a piece of @#@$!" and he laughed. I presented him the question "How can anything that still works after over 30 years be considered a piece of !@#!"? Sure, it does not have an iPod input...heck, it don't even have a CD input! Should I put a label on it that says CD instead of "Aux" and MP3 instead of "tape"? He then lost his mind when I pressed eject on the 1993 Laser Disc player and that huge tray slid out...
Speakers are like tools, get the durable stuff up front and they will be a joy to use while lasting for many decades to come. My 1999 JBL computer speakers are getting flaky--great sound (for what they are) but I'm thinking a Topping USB T-Amp and MA 4" full ranges to replace them. The Topping looks to use decent parts?
You can only do more with less if the "less" will last for much "more" time.
Modern foam surrounds are a different beast than the crumbly ones we find in old speakers. And cloth, rubber, or paper are no guarantee of longevity. The coating on cloth, the rubber itself harden (stiff surround synrome) and paper just wears out. The longest lived surrounds i have seen are leather.
dave
christ, i remember when w4-1337 used to be mere $30. that was a real giant killer back then.
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much agreed
they sure have, Had 2 pairs of the 6.5'' subwoofers. Sold them all for $120. They retail at $97.99 for one. I bought them for $40 a peice back in the day.
I guess nothing good last forever.
I got alot of 2 pairs of the 5" full ranges for sale.
Brand new still in the box
Tang Band W5-1611SA 5" Full Range Driver(2 pairs) - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
TB has nice woofers. But $328.00 for one NEO thats out of this world overated.
I'd go with the Audio Nirvana 8" NEOS anyday, and I guy wouldnt give an arm as well. You could buy a AN 8" neos for $357.
they sure have, Had 2 pairs of the 6.5'' subwoofers. Sold them all for $120. They retail at $97.99 for one. I bought them for $40 a peice back in the day.
I guess nothing good last forever.
I got alot of 2 pairs of the 5" full ranges for sale.
Brand new still in the box
Tang Band W5-1611SA 5" Full Range Driver(2 pairs) - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
TB has nice woofers. But $328.00 for one NEO thats out of this world overated.
I'd go with the Audio Nirvana 8" NEOS anyday, and I guy wouldnt give an arm as well. You could buy a AN 8" neos for $357.
I was firmly in the "no foam surround" camp until I got into higher sensitivity FR drivers. It appears that high sensitivity and rubber surrounds don't quite mix......
My old sansui g-6000 that I paid $20 at goodwill kicked my then new $800 dolby digital/dts yamaha receiver, that was 12 years ago.
I don't have a problem with foam surrounds. When your foam dies, send it off and have it replaced (assuming they will still be doing that at partsexpress then).
I suppose neo works more like alnico (act like a built in shorting ring) but overall I think they don't sound any better assuming the qts is the same when comparing neo vs ceramic.
I'd also heard that the neo pa woofers tend to demagnetize when clipped hard over time (like alnico).
I miss my laserdisc, it was huge !!!!!!!!!!!!
I loved to see the amazement kids had when telling them it was a big dvd.
The large reflective surface with rainbow lines didn't hurt either, lol....
Norman
I don't have a problem with foam surrounds. When your foam dies, send it off and have it replaced (assuming they will still be doing that at partsexpress then).
I suppose neo works more like alnico (act like a built in shorting ring) but overall I think they don't sound any better assuming the qts is the same when comparing neo vs ceramic.
I'd also heard that the neo pa woofers tend to demagnetize when clipped hard over time (like alnico).
I miss my laserdisc, it was huge !!!!!!!!!!!!
I loved to see the amazement kids had when telling them it was a big dvd.
The large reflective surface with rainbow lines didn't hurt either, lol....
Norman
I miss some of my old foamies--the JBL ProIII was a nice little speaker, alas--it died from myofoamial infarction at a young age <sniff> Did perform surgery on a buddies JBL to save them though. The only foamie I have is my Maelstrom 18" passive radiator but that will be a simple rebuild. PRs are easy! 
As with everything, there is a compromise but I'll feel better about it when PA drivers start using it again. So far, that has not happened but eventually they'll get a formula that will outlast the cone.
I have three laser disc movies still in their jackets, I take them out on occasion to tell kids I backup the entire internet on my jumbo DVD... 😉 Eventually, I'm going to make a clock out of one of them since the monsters are cool looking in a retro way. I don't have to worry about motor burn out when playing CDs in a laser disc player. 😎
Thanks for the tip on neodymium not being friendly to getting abused. So no Xmech voice coil smacking on my line arrays--another excuse to get that subwoofer project going. Who would of thought 70 years ago that we'd still be using accordion fold paper cone woofers with ceramic magnets? I'm sure if we went back in time to tell them that people use horns, ports, open baffle designs, vinyl records and tube amps...they would laugh at us.
As with everything, there is a compromise but I'll feel better about it when PA drivers start using it again. So far, that has not happened but eventually they'll get a formula that will outlast the cone.
I have three laser disc movies still in their jackets, I take them out on occasion to tell kids I backup the entire internet on my jumbo DVD... 😉 Eventually, I'm going to make a clock out of one of them since the monsters are cool looking in a retro way. I don't have to worry about motor burn out when playing CDs in a laser disc player. 😎
Thanks for the tip on neodymium not being friendly to getting abused. So no Xmech voice coil smacking on my line arrays--another excuse to get that subwoofer project going. Who would of thought 70 years ago that we'd still be using accordion fold paper cone woofers with ceramic magnets? I'm sure if we went back in time to tell them that people use horns, ports, open baffle designs, vinyl records and tube amps...they would laugh at us.
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