If the seal is not for glueing, you could contemplate to use something that don't absorb (and evidently later, eject) energy... EPDM rubber is such a material used e.g. in "fix your window drag" stripes...
Tatningslist Allround svart, Stokvis Tapes | Clas Ohlson
Sorry for minority language reference..
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Tatningslist Allround svart, Stokvis Tapes | Clas Ohlson
Sorry for minority language reference..
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I'm looking for it as a gasket only. The neoprene does work as I've just cut a sample to try it. It is a neoprene sponge like material and I've used it before throughout my build.
For damping I do keep looking at butyl between the two baffles. That has performed excellent and measurably better than a combination of neoprene and mass loaded vinyl. It basically creates a CLD structure between both aluminium baffles. It remains sticky/viscous over time. I want a solution around the bolt holes but in all other regards I'm quite pleased with how butyl holds up over time etc. Yes it is messy upon disassembly, but it does what it's supposed to do which is cut down any minor vibrations in the outer baffle. A measurable cleaner result was measured a long time ago. (cleaner IR)
I think I'm set upon materials now that I can see the neoprene seal will work. Just a lot of work to finish up before I can close up (at least partly) the first array and start work on the second. Time remains limited and outside temperatures will drop soon (which is a pain in my non heated garage).
I'm still not entirely done in the living room either. The new curtains will arrive in the coming week which means I'll have to find a way of making it work with my damping/absorbing panels (or create complete new ones). And make it pretty, so I'll have to do my best.
For damping I do keep looking at butyl between the two baffles. That has performed excellent and measurably better than a combination of neoprene and mass loaded vinyl. It basically creates a CLD structure between both aluminium baffles. It remains sticky/viscous over time. I want a solution around the bolt holes but in all other regards I'm quite pleased with how butyl holds up over time etc. Yes it is messy upon disassembly, but it does what it's supposed to do which is cut down any minor vibrations in the outer baffle. A measurable cleaner result was measured a long time ago. (cleaner IR)
I think I'm set upon materials now that I can see the neoprene seal will work. Just a lot of work to finish up before I can close up (at least partly) the first array and start work on the second. Time remains limited and outside temperatures will drop soon (which is a pain in my non heated garage).
I'm still not entirely done in the living room either. The new curtains will arrive in the coming week which means I'll have to find a way of making it work with my damping/absorbing panels (or create complete new ones). And make it pretty, so I'll have to do my best
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I used foam self adhesive window sealer that comes in rolls of tape in different widths and thicknesses because I mounted them the other way. No reason why it wouldn't work on the front. You can just mould it round the corners in one go and it squashes down to nothing quite easily.
(not my best effort at doing it but the only one I took a picture of)
(not my best effort at doing it but the only one I took a picture of)
Attachments
Thanks fluid and TNT. The front has a lot less space for sealing, but the 1.5 mm thickness neoprene will work. There's not a lot of room because of the drivers being close, so I keep it to a minimum. It's just a seal after all.
I might get some sorbothane to go around the bolt holes, I have to see what I can get semi locally, like in NL, DE or UK.
I might get some sorbothane to go around the bolt holes, I have to see what I can get semi locally, like in NL, DE or UK.
I actually have that type of foam on a big roll . I got several types the last time I had the arrays in pieces.
I put my trust in neoprene because it has stood the test of time. It will be some work, but it's worth it for peace of mind. Some of the door sealing foams I have used disintegrated within a couple of years of use. I know neoprene will last a long time.
. I got several types the last time I had the arrays in pieces.I put my trust in neoprene because it has stood the test of time. It will be some work, but it's worth it for peace of mind
. Some of the door sealing foams I have used disintegrated within a couple of years of use. I know neoprene will last a long time.
I do know it's worth the wait and that's a good motivation to just take my time needed... I've been listening to these speakers practically non stop from it's creation end of 2014 till June this year... In various different setups (3 PC's have been used as the source, 2 different amps, lots of DSP trails along the way)
Butyl sure is nasty stuff, I spent most of this afternoon cleaning up the baffles and enclosure, but... it is well worth it to me in this application. It is the best stuff I have found for this particular job. I just can't do it any other way, as I am an engineer by trade originally. If that means it takes me a little longer (because life gets in the way, mostly) so be it.
Taking off the butyl made me think of a Spiderman movie...
Spiderman 3 - The Black Suit [1080p HD] - YouTube
It's much like that, but on a micro level... in the end, all of it can be removed again without even a trace it was ever in there. All it takes is time.
It does work wonders, in cooperation with the aluminium baffles. So far I have no regrets as these are built for life long duty with maintenance possible as an option.
I chose these materials for that duty. Aluminium needs treatment more than wood would. However Aluminium is a more secure option for me in the long run. Made to be durable. These might just be the last pair of speakers I need. So far no disappointments or regrets.
Butyl sure is nasty stuff, I spent most of this afternoon cleaning up the baffles and enclosure, but... it is well worth it to me in this application. It is the best stuff I have found for this particular job. I just can't do it any other way, as I am an engineer by trade originally. If that means it takes me a little longer (because life gets in the way, mostly) so be it
.Taking off the butyl made me think of a Spiderman movie...
Spiderman 3 - The Black Suit [1080p HD] - YouTube
It's much like that, but on a micro level
... in the end, all of it can be removed again without even a trace it was ever in there. All it takes is time. It does work wonders, in cooperation with the aluminium baffles. So far I have no regrets as these are built for life long duty with maintenance possible as an option.
I chose these materials for that duty. Aluminium needs treatment more than wood would. However Aluminium is a more secure option for me in the long run. Made to be durable. These might just be the last pair of speakers I need
. So far no disappointments or regrets.
Don't read to much into my following post, I did this just for fun.
Over on Mabat's Horn Design thread, a couple of well rated monitor speakers were mentioned. As soon as I saw that Neumann KH80 DSP, I figured, I just had to compare it to my proposed array tweaks, simmed in Vituixcad.
Here's the array (all lines in shades of blue) compared to the Neumann:
Color index of the simmed array:
How's that for a comparison? Not too bad, is it? This is just a sim though, and I sure don't have the means to test how accurate it will be. It did surprise me a tiny bit. The other two monitors mentioned had a bit more flat DI, but did show similar trends as what the simmed array shows. A gradual rising DI. Both more so than the Neumann, but the array, if it performs close to what the sims predict, wouldn't fall far out of place. Curious to know what you guys think...
The complete list of tested speakers: Preference Ratings & Graphs
Over on Mabat's Horn Design thread, a couple of well rated monitor speakers were mentioned. As soon as I saw that Neumann KH80 DSP, I figured, I just had to compare it to my proposed array tweaks, simmed in Vituixcad.
Here's the array (all lines in shades of blue) compared to the Neumann:
Color index of the simmed array:
How's that for a comparison? Not too bad, is it? This is just a sim though, and I sure don't have the means to test how accurate it will be. It did surprise me a tiny bit. The other two monitors mentioned had a bit more flat DI, but did show similar trends as what the simmed array shows. A gradual rising DI. Both more so than the Neumann, but the array, if it performs close to what the sims predict, wouldn't fall far out of place. Curious to know what you guys think...
The complete list of tested speakers: Preference Ratings & Graphs
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don't mean to imply the listening experience would be anything like your arrays...
Lately I've been using headphones. I find the sound very similar to my arrays which shouldn't be surprising because I bought MiniDSP ears and equalized the headphones with JRiver DSP. Using headphones, I miss the imaging and that was/is a good part of the magic for me. Since your arrays have been down I would if you have been listening with headphones and how you would compare the two experiences
Lately I've been using headphones. I find the sound very similar to my arrays which shouldn't be surprising because I bought MiniDSP ears and equalized the headphones with JRiver DSP. Using headphones, I miss the imaging and that was/is a good part of the magic for me. Since your arrays have been down I would if you have been listening with headphones and how you would compare the two experiences
I thought it was a fun comparison to the arrays as these are results from a large spinorama like Toole and Olive suggest, to pick out the winning formula of speaker designs. That's what a good speaker looks or rather measures like, according to their theory.
The Arrays do pretty good, I'd say. Knowing how they deal with floor and ceiling, and some other unique character traits, shows they do make a pretty compelling case for use in a home. They would have a shot in the JBL spinorama tests.
I didn't even look at the Neumann to see which model it is, it is about a $999,00 active model that surfaced near the top in these spinorama tests. I'll do a comparison to one of the Genelec's too, I believe that was a $6000,00 + model.
I'd say I've experienced a good test once, where the headphones we used at that time were quite a good match to the arrays. It was with the headphones BYRTT brought when he came over for a visit, for which he had a set of matching set of EQ settings. That sound came very close, tonally, to the arrays. But personally I just love the whole experience with imaging, great tonality and feel of the arrays, I definitely prefer them over the headphones, even though I immediately bought the same headphones BYRTT brought with him and have a good 'temp' substitute in them.
With the arrays, especially with the complete experience with ambient channels etc. it is so much more involving. It comes quite close to the feel of being there at times. I love that! (and miss it very much a.t.m.)
The Arrays do pretty good, I'd say. Knowing how they deal with floor and ceiling, and some other unique character traits, shows they do make a pretty compelling case for use in a home. They would have a shot in the JBL spinorama tests
.I didn't even look at the Neumann to see which model it is, it is about a $999,00 active model that surfaced near the top in these spinorama tests. I'll do a comparison to one of the Genelec's too, I believe that was a $6000,00 + model.
I'd say I've experienced a good test once, where the headphones we used at that time were quite a good match to the arrays. It was with the headphones BYRTT brought when he came over for a visit, for which he had a set of matching set of EQ settings. That sound came very close, tonally, to the arrays. But personally I just love the whole experience with imaging, great tonality and feel of the arrays, I definitely prefer them over the headphones, even though I immediately bought the same headphones BYRTT brought with him and have a good 'temp' substitute in them.
With the arrays, especially with the complete experience with ambient channels etc. it is so much more involving. It comes quite close to the feel of being there at times. I love that! (and miss it very much a.t.m.)
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The Neumann KH 80 DSP:
More info: KH 80 DSP
But the best one of the bunch according to the spinorama data should be the Genelec 8341A:
A set of monitors at just under $6000,00. More info: 8341A - Genelec.com
It's only slightly behind on the price/performance ratio index but wins big based on spinorama performance alone.
But look at it on the performance ratings chart: Preference Ratings & Graphs
(Preference Ratings calculated using Patent US20050195982A1, developed by Sean Olive, done by Amir Majidimehr of AudioScienceReview (ASR))
See: Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
The comparison to that one:
Same color code used for the sim;
I think it's still not a bad comparison... The trends are quite similar, the DI of the array is rising a hair more compared to the genelec. But it's pretty constant and that's what gives those speakers the high spinorama ratings.
More info: KH 80 DSP
But the best one of the bunch according to the spinorama data should be the Genelec 8341A:
A set of monitors at just under $6000,00. More info: 8341A - Genelec.com
It's only slightly behind on the price/performance ratio index but wins big based on spinorama performance alone.
But look at it on the performance ratings chart: Preference Ratings & Graphs
(Preference Ratings calculated using Patent US20050195982A1, developed by Sean Olive, done by Amir Majidimehr of AudioScienceReview (ASR))
See: Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
The comparison to that one:
Same color code used for the sim;
I think it's still not a bad comparison... The trends are quite similar, the DI of the array is rising a hair more compared to the genelec. But it's pretty constant and that's what gives those speakers the high spinorama ratings.
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Granted, the arrays would never make that list if they were measured in a similar way.
But I bet in a real room at the distance they were intended to use they would even out the playing field.
According to the review over at ASR, the Genelec falls short in SPL capability in a real sized room.
Anyway, it was fun to just see the data of my sims being compared to these spinorama "high score" speakers...
By the way, Jack, in case you're wondering... the headphones are the Status Audio OB-1 with BYRTT's EQ FIR files.
They totally blew away the more expensive Senheiser HD 650 he brought with him. See: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-towers-25-driver-range-line-array-411.html#post5353334
But I bet in a real room at the distance they were intended to use they would even out the playing field.
According to the review over at ASR, the Genelec falls short in SPL capability in a real sized room.
Anyway, it was fun to just see the data of my sims being compared to these spinorama "high score" speakers...
By the way, Jack, in case you're wondering... the headphones are the Status Audio OB-1 with BYRTT's EQ FIR files.
They totally blew away the more expensive Senheiser HD 650 he brought with him. See: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-towers-25-driver-range-line-array-411.html#post5353334
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As my arrays have taken over my garage space, I had to build it up elsewhere...
Trial fit in place, the old panel will be re-used...
(Yes, I would have loved to get the panel all the way into the corner. Yet, that space is reserved for all the electronics that have to go somewhere, as in a modem, router and WiFi etc. The support for those devises will be part of the construction to keep the alterations of the fresh walls to a minimum)
With curtains in place:
That should do it... I'd say fit for coverage in a home styling magazine (lol).
I couldn't hang the curtains from the ceiling, a mismatch of beam placement and needs for the support. The wall was out to, as it is a fake wall before the outer stone wall with a (tiny) bit of damping between them.
So I made a self supporting construction to both hang the curtains and my absorption panels. Fixed between floor and ceiling. I'll fix it to the wall in two places for extra security. That's the only two holes per panel/curtain needed into the freshly refinished walls.
Oh... the things I do for a good sounding room. (the hardest part is to keep everyone happy, myself included)
Trial fit in place, the old panel will be re-used...
(Yes, I would have loved to get the panel all the way into the corner. Yet, that space is reserved for all the electronics that have to go somewhere, as in a modem, router and WiFi etc. The support for those devises will be part of the construction to keep the alterations of the fresh walls to a minimum)
With curtains in place:
That should do it... I'd say fit for coverage in a home styling magazine (lol).
I couldn't hang the curtains from the ceiling, a mismatch of beam placement and needs for the support. The wall was out to, as it is a fake wall before the outer stone wall with a (tiny) bit of damping between them.
So I made a self supporting construction to both hang the curtains and my absorption panels. Fixed between floor and ceiling. I'll fix it to the wall in two places for extra security. That's the only two holes per panel/curtain needed into the freshly refinished walls.
Oh... the things I do for a good sounding room
. (the hardest part is to keep everyone happy, myself included)Attachments
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Interesting comment. I was thinking about the same thing recently. The Toole-Olive spinorama test show if you meet the criteria most people will like the speaker. All good science. The inverse is not proven, you cannot say people will dislike the speaker if you fail to meet the criteria. There are plenty of examples here.
I think that's the beauty of the arrays, they can actually meet the criteria within the room. If you would base everything upon the anechoic data it probably would't be as obvious from the start.
As part of a firm that (wants to) sell successful speakers they have worked up the data to have a recipe they can use and know that it works.
But arrays have a similar, possibly even a better shot, when you allow them to work with the room.
Even the best Genelic from the list I posted will have detrimental floor and ceiling reflections if left untreated. They probably are monitors meant to listen up close anyway. One of the strong points of this type of array is that it can keep floor and ceiling interaction to a minimum. That may be what I like most about them.
Their data and publications have proven to be a good guide for anyone interested in building speakers. But there definitely is more than one way to great results. I am convinced we, as DIY crowd, can have an advantage by creating the speaker/room synergy any way we want it to be. That's where there is a lot of potential for us.
If you want to go that far, that is...
As part of a firm that (wants to) sell successful speakers they have worked up the data to have a recipe they can use and know that it works.
But arrays have a similar, possibly even a better shot, when you allow them to work with the room.
Even the best Genelic from the list I posted will have detrimental floor and ceiling reflections if left untreated. They probably are monitors meant to listen up close anyway. One of the strong points of this type of array is that it can keep floor and ceiling interaction to a minimum. That may be what I like most about them.
Their data and publications have proven to be a good guide for anyone interested in building speakers. But there definitely is more than one way to great results. I am convinced we, as DIY crowd, can have an advantage by creating the speaker/room synergy any way we want it to be. That's where there is a lot of potential for us.
If you want to go that far, that is...
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