I did some tests with Flac and MQA and DSD512 and there is a difference, IMHO.
Results: Flac and Tidals MQA, are almost equal. MQA beating flac by a hair. DSD is mesmerizing and unequalled. Flac can go back to bed.
Testing equipment:
Source: Tidal or Roon on PC in windows 11.
DAC: Gustard X16 (ESS ES9068AS) DAC
Highs: B1 Triode preamp + Nelson's V-FET pt 1 on JA6681B in horns (500-12kHz).
Lows: B1 Triode preamp + Two (one channel each) XTZ 500W class D plate amps on dual Seas Nextel 10" in 60L sealed cabinet 30-500Hz.
Crossover: 1st order passive at 500Hz using Alumen caps and mundorf foil coil inductors.
Results: Flac and Tidals MQA, are almost equal. MQA beating flac by a hair. DSD is mesmerizing and unequalled. Flac can go back to bed.
Testing equipment:
Source: Tidal or Roon on PC in windows 11.
DAC: Gustard X16 (ESS ES9068AS) DAC
Highs: B1 Triode preamp + Nelson's V-FET pt 1 on JA6681B in horns (500-12kHz).
Lows: B1 Triode preamp + Two (one channel each) XTZ 500W class D plate amps on dual Seas Nextel 10" in 60L sealed cabinet 30-500Hz.
Crossover: 1st order passive at 500Hz using Alumen caps and mundorf foil coil inductors.
Indeed, I think that was the point. When you start with a digital recording with some sample rate and wordlength, converting it to another sample rate, converting it to a smaller wordlength, recording it on analogue tape or making a vinyl record out of it are all lossy processes.
Whether the loss is audible was not part of the discussion.
Just looking at the size difference of the files I think that would be a not so lossless affair.
To rewind's comments, FLAC is just a container for losslessly compressed PCM files, I think the differences you hear are present in the original PCM files. I have a lot of high res files in FLAC format that sound slightly better than lower res files whether PCM or FLAC files. The difference generally isn't large on well recorded material which is generally what I try to listen to.
A decade or so ago neither I nor any of my friends were able to hear a difference between PCM and FLAC files of the same recording in A/B blind testing - I concluded long ago that is is not a problem. The results appeared to be random guesses.
I also admit to a subjective preference for good MQA recordings over 16/44 PCM in more than a few cases.
I like DSD as well and in the headphone system generally transcode 44/48kHz PCM to DSD in Roon for playback through the D90SE except for DSD, DXD, 2496/24192 and MQA which I play in native format. I thought DSD was more natural sounding in older DACs I have, in the D90SE I did not find the same benefit (and it sounds slightly better than my other older Topping DACs.)
I have never seen, heard, or measured a Mola, I have not measured the Topping D90SE, but as their flagship DAC until recently the objective measurements on a certain other site would seem to indicate that it is a good performer, and as a notably fussy listener I find it more than satisfactory. I am thinking about a Geshelli Labs Dayzee or J2S as a possible replacement for the D90SE which would move to my office system.
Main system is DSP based at 2496 so all sources are resampled to match - digital all the way to a Danley DNA SC-48 (AKA Linea Research ASC-48 FIR). Format and sample rate conversion are handled in Roon in 64 bit FP DSP.
A decade or so ago neither I nor any of my friends were able to hear a difference between PCM and FLAC files of the same recording in A/B blind testing - I concluded long ago that is is not a problem. The results appeared to be random guesses.
I also admit to a subjective preference for good MQA recordings over 16/44 PCM in more than a few cases.
I like DSD as well and in the headphone system generally transcode 44/48kHz PCM to DSD in Roon for playback through the D90SE except for DSD, DXD, 2496/24192 and MQA which I play in native format. I thought DSD was more natural sounding in older DACs I have, in the D90SE I did not find the same benefit (and it sounds slightly better than my other older Topping DACs.)
I have never seen, heard, or measured a Mola, I have not measured the Topping D90SE, but as their flagship DAC until recently the objective measurements on a certain other site would seem to indicate that it is a good performer, and as a notably fussy listener I find it more than satisfactory. I am thinking about a Geshelli Labs Dayzee or J2S as a possible replacement for the D90SE which would move to my office system.
Main system is DSP based at 2496 so all sources are resampled to match - digital all the way to a Danley DNA SC-48 (AKA Linea Research ASC-48 FIR). Format and sample rate conversion are handled in Roon in 64 bit FP DSP.
Last edited:
For one thing, differences in clocking do not show up well in typical measurements, but they sure can significantly affect sound. Consumer dacs cannot afford to include high performance clocks. The S-cut crystals are too expensive to begin with. There are other problems as well which I will not get into here.
Once again, we measure what is reasonably easy to measure and reasonably easy to interpret (e.g. stationary nonlinearity). We don't measure exactly how humans hear.
Once again, we measure what is reasonably easy to measure and reasonably easy to interpret (e.g. stationary nonlinearity). We don't measure exactly how humans hear.
Last edited:
Some context here: I was referring to Digital -Digital conversion losses
i.e. original studio recording digital master e.g 96k 24 bit shoehorned to CD 44.1k 16-bit for distribution
Happy to hear that my qualitative listening studies were not completely off.
I am sure there are better DACs than my Gustard X16, but it scored pretty high in tests and I enjoy the sound of it. Things are going so fast now that if I wait 5 years I can buy something way more crisp than a Mola.
I think, the real question should be, when will Tidal introduce DSD512? And when will it be as conveniant as Spotify? And when will Spotify stop commercials with lyrics about genetalia in between songs on albums like Greatest hits for kids?
I moved away from DSP to have as least conversion meddling as possible to my files. And I use drivers that can take a beating and use 1st order passive speaker level XO to simplify phase, and other problems I don't understand.
Roon fees suck. But it is the only proper software I have found. Even with the newest firmware, my Gustard does "Click!- sounds in between DSD files when played on Foobar. No problems on Roon. The use of space on my harddrive makes DSD512 more of a party trick anyway.
What does more "crisp" mean? Guess I'm too old to know.
However I know how much a Mola costs, so it appears you are expecting to get wealthy enough so that ~$12k is not big deal for a 2-channel dac.
I don't know either, as I just bought the Gustard X16 and I am still a happy customer. No huge reason to change. There was a huge reason to change when I relied on the DAC in theMinidsp 4x10HD. Yuck!
I am expecting a Mola to be infinitely worse than the best reasonably priced DAC that comes out in 5-8 years.
I am expecting a Mola to be infinitely worse than the best reasonably priced DAC that comes out in 5-8 years.
Experienced that as well even though not fully unfolded in the previous system. Now, new version DAC capable of final unfolding and rendering but MQA gone from Tidal!
Personally, I don’t care about the shipping containers/packaging: flac, mqa or others. Just after studio quality master payloads delivered intact…
Last edited:
What was the source? Other than a couple of very specialist labels no one records in DSD so it's post processing. I am not aware of any source material that was recorded in parallel to PCM and DSD to compare so you have to ask exactly what you are comparing here.
If you were to visit Northern California, you would be welcome to visit my place here in Auburn. I think you might be surprised at what a pretty good dac can sound like. Its probably safe to say that any Gustard would lose in an A/B comparison (given the difference will be plenty obvious).
We had another forum member visit here a couple of times before the dacs were as good as they are now. Here is what he had to say:
Yes, I have been to Mark’s place. I can try to describe the sound.
Please note that these are subjective impressions. I am very much a believer in science-based research and good engineering. I would want to know which objective measurements can quantify what I'm hearing. That would be very powerful.
When I was there, Mark's speakers were one of the Soundlab behemoths, probably the Majestic series, which is a large electrostat. There were subs for the very bottom end. This was powered by high power amps. Front end was one of the DACs Mark was probably experimenting with. Vinyl was the new SP-10 Mk3 with a laser cartridge (?) plus a custom preamp for the cartridge. My speakers are a two-way, 15 inch pro woofer plus large horn mated to a compression driver.
The first thing I noticed was that the electrostats could play loud with little to no distortion. Much more so than my horn speakers, which can go plenty loud. I had heard electrostats before and was always disappointed that I couldn't turn it up without hitting the limit. On these, the limit is high enough that you can enjoy realistic sound levels and stunningly low distortion.
This low distortion from the speakers resulted in a lot of transparency and ability to hear down into the preceding components. And it is those components whose sound we are interested in. What I heard was an extremely natural, live-sounding tempo. This was a revelation to me. Even on music I am very familiar with, the tempo was much slower and much more natural. It was unbelievable really. On one piece of music, I had to check with Mark that he was playing the exact same recording I had heard so many times. The difference was that stark. You would want your system to have this ability to get the tempo (or flow, or beat, or whatever you want to call it) exactly right.
And of course all the other stuff, such as natural timbres and textures of instruments and voices was there. But the tempo was the standout thing for me. We listened to the vinyl too and of course that sounded very good, probably goes without saying.
I am not really qualified to talk about the construction of DACs; all of you have much more experience in that regard. But visiting Mark and hearing his system was eye-opening for me. Since then, I have worked on my DACs and two most important changes that have resulted in sound being closer to natural have been:
1. using Lyuben's JLSounds card, and
2. switching to HQPlayer from JRiver.
The JLSounds card does reclocking and it has made a huge difference to tempo and overall enjoyment. My DAC before that was an RME ADI-2 Pro, which has fantastic specs, but sorry to say sounds awful in comparison. Regarding the JRiver to HQPlayer switch, I have no idea why that should make a difference (not doing oversampling) but it does.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dac-recommendation.376015/post-7560022
Yes as Bill says, they are a bit obscure, but there is a reasonable number of native DSD recordings available for download at least in the U.S. Obviously all audiophile oriented. (Means relatively few popular artists, but plenty of gems)
https://www.nativedsd.com/
3000 plus titles from 90 labels all originally recorded in DSD
https://www.psaudio.com/collections/octave-artist-masters
PS Audio DSD music store
https://bluecoastmusic.com/
Cookie Marenco's download store - a lot of native DSD here - Marenco is a top notch American recording engineer. I have downloaded recordings from here in the past.
https://www.highresaudio.com/en
These guys have DSD, not guaranteed to be native. I have downloaded DSD recordings from here in the past.
https://www.2l.no/
Specializing in Norwegian music with extremely well recorded high res material in a variety formats. (Yup, I have downloaded music from here as well. Recommended)
There are a number of others and I have not included any EU sites.
https://www.nativedsd.com/
3000 plus titles from 90 labels all originally recorded in DSD
https://www.psaudio.com/collections/octave-artist-masters
PS Audio DSD music store
https://bluecoastmusic.com/
Cookie Marenco's download store - a lot of native DSD here - Marenco is a top notch American recording engineer. I have downloaded recordings from here in the past.
https://www.highresaudio.com/en
These guys have DSD, not guaranteed to be native. I have downloaded DSD recordings from here in the past.
https://www.2l.no/
Specializing in Norwegian music with extremely well recorded high res material in a variety formats. (Yup, I have downloaded music from here as well. Recommended)
There are a number of others and I have not included any EU sites.
Last edited:
Are the recordings really native DSD? There is only one ADC, IIRC, which happens to be made by AKM, and which happens to operate in native DSD mode. Pretty much all other modern ADCs do not actually internally digitize to DSD nor to PCM, although they can be configured to output PCM or DSD following some internal DSP processing.
But who cares? If a particular dac sounds better playing back in DSD mode, then why not always send it DSD (even if the source material is CD)?
Also in case its not clear, the reason for using DSD for playback is IMHO mostly because some dacs sound better in DSD mode as versus PCM mode. Prior to being processed by a dac, its probably better if source material is in PCM format. Recording, mixing, and mastering is mostly easier to do and potentially more powerful if done in PCM.
But who cares? If a particular dac sounds better playing back in DSD mode, then why not always send it DSD (even if the source material is CD)?
Also in case its not clear, the reason for using DSD for playback is IMHO mostly because some dacs sound better in DSD mode as versus PCM mode. Prior to being processed by a dac, its probably better if source material is in PCM format. Recording, mixing, and mastering is mostly easier to do and potentially more powerful if done in PCM.
Last edited: