With only criteria of WAF being that no horns are allowed below the TAD, what would be an ideal choice of midbass setup?
Assuming I will use subwoofers to cover the bottom end..
If I got a pair of compression drivers for the bass, that would ofcourse override the WAF, but with regular drivers; no bass horns...
Assuming I will use subwoofers to cover the bottom end..
If I got a pair of compression drivers for the bass, that would ofcourse override the WAF, but with regular drivers; no bass horns...
room size is pretty good - roughly 18 by 26 with slightly less than 8 ft ceiling - would be better if the ceiling was a little higher, probably
Corner placement could mean several things _grin_FWIW, if you asked me to suggest initial placement for speakers in that room I would put them symmetric- Measuring from the center of the dust cap or throat of the compression driver -
1.45 meters off the back wall - and 1.51 meters from the side walls -
You've got a pretty good sized room - I'm with Rod that there is no substitute for displacement _grin_
The region from 500 hz down to 120 or so is not something I feel comfortable with making minimal recommendations on - My azura's cover that so I haven't been looking at that carefully - Roddy and/or Tim Moorman or perhaps Brett or someone else might weigh in on that part of the spectrum
FWIW, if I were to do the H-frame dipoles in that room, I wouldn't consider less than two H-frame 12"'s per side - which would be 8 drivers total -
There are a couple of threads at AA that I remembered -
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=51782&highlight=Linkwitz+transform&session=
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hug&m=48962
Hopefully, there will be sufficient info there to help you head in the right direction -_grin_
One of the reasons this is so difficult to get right is that this range of frequencies "supports" everything above it - so you want to make sure you don't compromise needlessly in that area.
Regards
Ken L
Corner placement could mean several things _grin_FWIW, if you asked me to suggest initial placement for speakers in that room I would put them symmetric- Measuring from the center of the dust cap or throat of the compression driver -
1.45 meters off the back wall - and 1.51 meters from the side walls -
You've got a pretty good sized room - I'm with Rod that there is no substitute for displacement _grin_
The region from 500 hz down to 120 or so is not something I feel comfortable with making minimal recommendations on - My azura's cover that so I haven't been looking at that carefully - Roddy and/or Tim Moorman or perhaps Brett or someone else might weigh in on that part of the spectrum
FWIW, if I were to do the H-frame dipoles in that room, I wouldn't consider less than two H-frame 12"'s per side - which would be 8 drivers total -
There are a couple of threads at AA that I remembered -
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=51782&highlight=Linkwitz+transform&session=
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hug&m=48962
Hopefully, there will be sufficient info there to help you head in the right direction -_grin_
One of the reasons this is so difficult to get right is that this range of frequencies "supports" everything above it - so you want to make sure you don't compromise needlessly in that area.
Regards
Ken L
This is a pain...
I'd better just go on building TAD horns... And actually, I think I might just end up building 80Hz hypex edgarhorns... 🙄 Thanks for your time and efforts made to put me on a right track even though i'm notoriously seeking off-track.. Think the edgarhorns will be my best bet for midbass.. and they're actually not *that* big either... 🙄 If anyone knows a better sounding midbass horn about the same size as the edgar 80, i'd be pleased to know.
Back at scratch. My shots was in the dark.. It looks like i'll go the same way as "most people" do, but now I at least know why I will. That's an achievement in itself isn't it?
Rodd and Ken, you've been like yin and yang in this thread. You've been of great help. Thankyouthankyouthankyou. 😀
I'd better just go on building TAD horns... And actually, I think I might just end up building 80Hz hypex edgarhorns... 🙄 Thanks for your time and efforts made to put me on a right track even though i'm notoriously seeking off-track.. Think the edgarhorns will be my best bet for midbass.. and they're actually not *that* big either... 🙄 If anyone knows a better sounding midbass horn about the same size as the edgar 80, i'd be pleased to know.Back at scratch. My shots was in the dark.. It looks like i'll go the same way as "most people" do, but now I at least know why I will. That's an achievement in itself isn't it?
Rodd and Ken, you've been like yin and yang in this thread. You've been of great help. Thankyouthankyouthankyou. 😀
In my experiance with the TAD 4001 I found the best sounding horn and range to be 800 to 20K in 360 Hz flare SB horns. Using a larger horn caused beaming (round tractrix beam at approx. 25 times the flare rate) and smaller horns don't load the midrange enough so the sound can be a bit thin.
Using the larger SB horns is much better suited for a good 10" driver like the JBL 2123 (shown here) -- when placed close to the floor and with a tweeked back chamber they will produce a soilid 120 to 1K response from a 180 cycle flare horn. Carefully crossing over to the smaller horn at 1K sounds extrtemely good. Here I use the JBL 2440/375 instead of the TAD because it has superior midrange response and naturally rolls off at 8K where the 360 cycle horn starts to beam. At 8K the JBL 2405 slot rolls in -- A much better sounding solution than the 4001 used in a round horn without a tweeter -- Mating the 4001 seemlessly with a tweeter is a pain, and IMO is nearly impossible.
JBL 2123J, 2440, 2405 -- Below that sand filled bass horns with Altec 921 15" and three wall/corner mounted subhorns loaded with three 18" woofers. Triamped.
TAD TD4001, TAD 1601A, below that eight corner loaded JBL 2235H 15" woofers - Biamped.
Using the larger SB horns is much better suited for a good 10" driver like the JBL 2123 (shown here) -- when placed close to the floor and with a tweeked back chamber they will produce a soilid 120 to 1K response from a 180 cycle flare horn. Carefully crossing over to the smaller horn at 1K sounds extrtemely good. Here I use the JBL 2440/375 instead of the TAD because it has superior midrange response and naturally rolls off at 8K where the 360 cycle horn starts to beam. At 8K the JBL 2405 slot rolls in -- A much better sounding solution than the 4001 used in a round horn without a tweeter -- Mating the 4001 seemlessly with a tweeter is a pain, and IMO is nearly impossible.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
JBL 2123J, 2440, 2405 -- Below that sand filled bass horns with Altec 921 15" and three wall/corner mounted subhorns loaded with three 18" woofers. Triamped.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
TAD TD4001, TAD 1601A, below that eight corner loaded JBL 2235H 15" woofers - Biamped.
Thanks Magnetar. Nice system. Very nice. 
At the time being, I will not focus on the top end, but I am curious, wouldn't it be a trick to mate a 350Hz TD-4001 SB upwards with a smaller SB, for example with the TD-2001 in a 2kHz tractrix flare, possibly crossed in the 3kHz-4kHz range?
Also I have a main question. In the process of making my 350Hz SBs, Till has been helpful researching possebilities for a throat piece adapter in metal (aluminium). The only problem is the piece cannot be made with a tractrix flare, so I'd have to start the horn expansion with a Conus flare in the adapter piece. Now, will this introduce any problems?
Would it yield better results having no expansion at all in the 4,5cm adapter and then doing the pure tractrix contour in the wooden part of the horn? Opinions?
At the time being, I will not focus on the top end, but I am curious, wouldn't it be a trick to mate a 350Hz TD-4001 SB upwards with a smaller SB, for example with the TD-2001 in a 2kHz tractrix flare, possibly crossed in the 3kHz-4kHz range?
Also I have a main question. In the process of making my 350Hz SBs, Till has been helpful researching possebilities for a throat piece adapter in metal (aluminium). The only problem is the piece cannot be made with a tractrix flare, so I'd have to start the horn expansion with a Conus flare in the adapter piece. Now, will this introduce any problems?
Would it yield better results having no expansion at all in the 4,5cm adapter and then doing the pure tractrix contour in the wooden part of the horn? Opinions?
Or should I get the adapter piece made with consentric rings, and sand it down to an extension of the tractrix contour maybe, for a pure tractrix shape on the entire horn? This might actually be my solution..
Thanks.
You really should look at the system as a whole including the treble if you plan on spending the money on these drivers and horns.
The 4001 actually has better sounding treble (and everything else) than the 2001. The only advantage I see of using the TAD 4001 driver over the JBL 2440 (same guy designed them both) is you don't have to use a tweeter with the TAD. The problem is the TAD uses another slit in the phase plug to obtain this HF extension and what you are really hearing above 8K is break up -- a real tweeter will have better tone and lower distortion. One reason I like the 2440/375 is the reponse drops like a brick when it goes into breakup. Another reason is the midrange is less forward and smoother. It is also less expensive on the used market.
IME a large format 2" exit driver can be used well past 3-4K -- and 8-10K is a great place to crossover. I have used the 4001 down to 350 cycles and it can sound good with a couple of watts - even with a first order network. If you really want to use a compression driver this low I however recommend the Emilar EC600 or JBL 2482 or 2485. They make the TAD sound like a toy in the big horns. BUT the JBL 2123 10" is even better.
You should use the same flare throughout the horn if possible.
You really should look at the system as a whole including the treble if you plan on spending the money on these drivers and horns.
The 4001 actually has better sounding treble (and everything else) than the 2001. The only advantage I see of using the TAD 4001 driver over the JBL 2440 (same guy designed them both) is you don't have to use a tweeter with the TAD. The problem is the TAD uses another slit in the phase plug to obtain this HF extension and what you are really hearing above 8K is break up -- a real tweeter will have better tone and lower distortion. One reason I like the 2440/375 is the reponse drops like a brick when it goes into breakup. Another reason is the midrange is less forward and smoother. It is also less expensive on the used market.
IME a large format 2" exit driver can be used well past 3-4K -- and 8-10K is a great place to crossover. I have used the 4001 down to 350 cycles and it can sound good with a couple of watts - even with a first order network. If you really want to use a compression driver this low I however recommend the Emilar EC600 or JBL 2482 or 2485. They make the TAD sound like a toy in the big horns. BUT the JBL 2123 10" is even better.
You should use the same flare throughout the horn if possible.
Magnetar said:
I'm not concidering buying another pair of TADs, it was just a theoretical question regarding integration upwards.. I already posess the TD 4001s and my first quest will be midbass.
Magnetar said:You should use the same flare throughout the horn if possible.
Thanks. I'll try to get the piece made with concentric rings then, and work it down to tractrix.
"You should use the same flare throughout the horn if possible. "
what is the flare inside the 4001? i guess it is conical. i would make the adapter also conical as it is better in precision, with a larger angel than the part inside the drive. Tthan you work the part were horn and adapter is connected to an inbetween curve.
but it will work with your method also.
what is the flare inside the 4001? i guess it is conical. i would make the adapter also conical as it is better in precision, with a larger angel than the part inside the drive. Tthan you work the part were horn and adapter is connected to an inbetween curve.
but it will work with your method also.
till said:
Thanks Till
I mistakenly thought it was a straight pipe with no expansion, but checking it out, it does indeed appear to be a conical flare. Then, if I go for a conical adapter, Why should I not continue the same flare expansion as within the driver? Wouldn't this be "safer"
because exactly the same is not possible to machine (even not to measure), and i suspect a smaller angle would be of disadvantage. i would make it at least a bit larger to be on the safe side. i read somwere a "faster" opening horn gives less THD...
i don´t know what production method you will use for the horn - i designed my adapter the way it is because i was limited to what i was able to make at the horn.
i don´t know what production method you will use for the horn - i designed my adapter the way it is because i was limited to what i was able to make at the horn.
Well, it seems like I will go for the concentric rings concept, working it dow to tractrix... I guess I'll have some time to think about it though, Tell me when you get the materials quote, I understand it'll be expensive, but I have no idea about the price range..🙄