I agree.
And i loved the w-bin i had.
It had impact transients, but not much till 10' away.
Horns are great.
Something about 4ft2 of mouth moving air in the room versus 1 round driver of 1ft2.
A better air lever.
I found the same thing with 2 different subs i built.
Both had the same cone +xmax (2 x 18's with 4.3mm xmax vs 4 x 12's with 8mm xmax), same f3.
But the 18's were visceral, they just worked better.
And i loved the w-bin i had.
It had impact transients, but not much till 10' away.
Horns are great.
Something about 4ft2 of mouth moving air in the room versus 1 round driver of 1ft2.
A better air lever.
I found the same thing with 2 different subs i built.
Both had the same cone +xmax (2 x 18's with 4.3mm xmax vs 4 x 12's with 8mm xmax), same f3.
But the 18's were visceral, they just worked better.
If you dont mind to sacrifice low end, one of the most powerful enclosure type for "kick bass" is so called "bandpass horn".
Few of these (I recommend at least 4) will hurt and pinch you against the wall when driven properly. And not too difficult to make, compared to typical front loaded horns / w-bins. Turbosound and Funktion One has been using these kinds of enclosures for very powerfull bass.
ES18BPH
USB
There are many more similar designs, but if you need lots of bottom end too <50Hz, separate subwoofers are required..
However if you prefer standard horn loading, check out Martin 115 w-bin and 215 mk3 dual 15" plans. They are very powerful too.
Standard reflex? Well, they are best for sound quality but not even close when it comes punchiness and efficiency. Once I made 2x12" bandpasshorn and even that was scary thing when cranked up!
Few of these (I recommend at least 4) will hurt and pinch you against the wall when driven properly. And not too difficult to make, compared to typical front loaded horns / w-bins. Turbosound and Funktion One has been using these kinds of enclosures for very powerfull bass.
ES18BPH
USB
There are many more similar designs, but if you need lots of bottom end too <50Hz, separate subwoofers are required..
However if you prefer standard horn loading, check out Martin 115 w-bin and 215 mk3 dual 15" plans. They are very powerful too.
Standard reflex? Well, they are best for sound quality but not even close when it comes punchiness and efficiency. Once I made 2x12" bandpasshorn and even that was scary thing when cranked up!
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All bass horns are bandpass alignments 🙂
And that's the trick. Once you realize this, it's not that difficult to redesign the vented "W-bin" configuration to cover a passband that's a bit lower in frequency. The ones in use in my cousin's nightclub are tuned to 40 Hz, for example.
Once you realize that these bass horns are not really "horns" but more 1/4 wave resonance alignments with limited passbands, the "aha!" light should pop on and you can approach their (re)design that way.
And that's the trick. Once you realize this, it's not that difficult to redesign the vented "W-bin" configuration to cover a passband that's a bit lower in frequency. The ones in use in my cousin's nightclub are tuned to 40 Hz, for example.
Once you realize that these bass horns are not really "horns" but more 1/4 wave resonance alignments with limited passbands, the "aha!" light should pop on and you can approach their (re)design that way.
Yes, kind of true is that - they indeed are all band pass horns.
But ES18bph etc are basicly 4th order bandpass enclosures with big flared port or horn. Thats why we call them band pass horns. The short horn part is there mainly for better coupling with surrounding air and thus they are very efficient enclosures. Negative thing is, they only work well in very narrow band like 60-180Hz, where as typical well designed front loaded 1/4w horn can cover 60-400Hz. But they are also much bigger.
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Yup, they're basically a 4th order BP alignment with the front volume and vent replaced by a short expanding "horn", which is basically an expanding vent.
Now, say we were to convert it to a 6th order series or parallel-tuned BP type of alignment. We get the advantages of wider bandwidth and/or better power handling at low frequencies, at the possible cost of a larger box. The front-vented W-bin is basically such an alignment (6th order BP with front section replaced by a short horn).
Theoretically it should be possible to do a series turned version of the W-bin to get the advantage of increased bandwidth, but I really haven't looked into it. Hmm... maybe I should modify my W-BIN BOXPLAN workbook to include that option to see what's possible...
Now, say we were to convert it to a 6th order series or parallel-tuned BP type of alignment. We get the advantages of wider bandwidth and/or better power handling at low frequencies, at the possible cost of a larger box. The front-vented W-bin is basically such an alignment (6th order BP with front section replaced by a short horn).
Theoretically it should be possible to do a series turned version of the W-bin to get the advantage of increased bandwidth, but I really haven't looked into it. Hmm... maybe I should modify my W-BIN BOXPLAN workbook to include that option to see what's possible...
Karlson boxes/ "couplers" remain among my fave vs little W horn within certain limits of size.
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I lost all faith in tapped horns ca 2014, any room can be difficult enough by itself, no need to add more problems.
Had problems mainly with resonance/reflection, most places bad, some places horrible. Even in a small-ish room the TH seemed to strongly reinforce some unwanted tendencies over more traditional designs. Overall experience: slightly late (varying strongly with frequency), very muddy (also varying strongly with frequency), good spl capabilities.
Not saying TH's are "bad", I'll just avoid them in favor of other solutions.
one of the most disappointing things I experienced were sixteen ported Wbins (Stage Accompany, probably 18"), outside, stacked in two stacks of 8. To be fair, it was a strange venue, with a body of water about 3-5 m behind the stacks. No idea about the amping. But very underwhelming. Pity though, the system had a nice Stage Accompany top section with ribbon tweeters, quadrophonic, custom processing and mixer, playing nice jamaican foundation, roots and dub. This was at Bersebrück Reggae Jam 2015 or so..... the other sounds at the festival were far superior on the bass section. Even the smaller "Top frankin" stacks with a single 4520 and some other mismatched bass cabs per side was creating more pressure.
Eaw kf940 bass horn.
2x12"
Bent horn path
13' long
Maybe 3-4 ft2 of mouth
Here is their graph of the response of 1 vs 4 units.
Notice good coupling at 200hz, almost none at 30hz.
But the benefit is 10db of boost can be spread across 8 drivers easier than 1.
2x12"
Bent horn path
13' long
Maybe 3-4 ft2 of mouth
Here is their graph of the response of 1 vs 4 units.
Notice good coupling at 200hz, almost none at 30hz.
But the benefit is 10db of boost can be spread across 8 drivers easier than 1.
Attachments
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Looks to me just 1 well placed notch with fine-adjusted q would make that flat from 50-60hz up to nearly 400hz. -6db at 30 doesn't seem too bad?
Not really. In the PA world, we'd use a bigger amp and give all the drivers some pain.
Chris
Heya. What is your budget for the speaker and amplifier? What is the maximum size and weight of the box you would accept? If you din't know, you should a) make some good speaker that can be utilized in many bins. My vote goes for B&C 18DS115, or cheaper 18TBW100. You can put especially 18DS115 anywhere. B) make some sawdust, and find out.
Look at Paraflex designs. Very interesting.
Look at Paraflex designs. Very interesting.
Hi guys, thanks for all the feedback.
I ended up building this design - 4818
and put a RCF LF18N51 RCF LF18N451 Woofer - GearclubDirect
in it. just bought a cheap behringer nx6000D amp to power it at the moment, and my god does it pump some air. Chest thumping at 10 meters away.
Ill upload a few photos soon and will be building another 3 to go along with it.
Also do you guys have any thoughts on a Mid/Top to go along with it, ive been looking at the mt122 or mt102's but am open to suggestions. (i realize this is the wrong forum to ask too)
Thanks.
I ended up building this design - 4818
and put a RCF LF18N51 RCF LF18N451 Woofer - GearclubDirect
in it. just bought a cheap behringer nx6000D amp to power it at the moment, and my god does it pump some air. Chest thumping at 10 meters away.
Ill upload a few photos soon and will be building another 3 to go along with it.
Also do you guys have any thoughts on a Mid/Top to go along with it, ive been looking at the mt122 or mt102's but am open to suggestions. (i realize this is the wrong forum to ask too)
Thanks.
While that W-Bin might be tuned to 35 Hz, the accompanying FR graph suggests that it's over 10dB down at 50 Hz. That's more of a kickbin than a pro audio subwoofer. Looks like a very old design, done in the days when amps were small and SPL from 60 Hz up was more valuable.
What do you suggest I build instead, to add to this system if I leave the w bin as a kick bin?
As you are using a different driver than what was spec'd for that particular W-bin, you might end up with a completely different response. The good news is that the Fb is at 35 Hz, so it's possible that your build will go down a bit lower than the original, but not be as efficient. Best to just test it to see what it's capable of, before making any further plans.