I'm new to the DIY speaker world (in case some of you haven't already guessed), and am working on a steep learning curve. Fortunately, I'm not too embarrassed to ask naive questions, so here comes another one.
Most speakers are designed to be well removed from a wall (to avoid various problems associated with sound wave echoes, as I understand it). But why aren't more speakers designed with the wall in mind?
Here's what's puzzling me. Most enclosed speakers make use of the speaker walls to enhance the sound in some way (e.g. infinite baffle, and so on). So why not design a speaker that simply includes the room wall as part of the enclosure (where the back panel of the enclosure is bolted to the wall so that the enclosure's back panel is now assumed to include the thickness of the wall.)? People aim for stiffer, thicker walls as a way of reducing resonance and such, so why not simply design and model a speaker so that rear panel includes the thickness of the room wall as part of the enclosure? This would allow the user to bolt the speaker to a wall when it is completed. Has this been done or does it introduce more problems than it may seem to solve?
Most speakers are designed to be well removed from a wall (to avoid various problems associated with sound wave echoes, as I understand it). But why aren't more speakers designed with the wall in mind?
Here's what's puzzling me. Most enclosed speakers make use of the speaker walls to enhance the sound in some way (e.g. infinite baffle, and so on). So why not design a speaker that simply includes the room wall as part of the enclosure (where the back panel of the enclosure is bolted to the wall so that the enclosure's back panel is now assumed to include the thickness of the wall.)? People aim for stiffer, thicker walls as a way of reducing resonance and such, so why not simply design and model a speaker so that rear panel includes the thickness of the room wall as part of the enclosure? This would allow the user to bolt the speaker to a wall when it is completed. Has this been done or does it introduce more problems than it may seem to solve?
Last edited:
I love wall mount speakers for how much floor space they save and they have better bass due to no baffle step loss and thus do not require baffle step compensation (BSC). There are several threads on wall mount speakers and in-wall speakers. The Cornu thread is one, and in the foam core thread I have a wall mount MLTL, and a wall mount flat BIB or FIB. There are some threads on in wall BLH's (howardg) and also in wall FAST systems (tuxedocivic). In general though many designs can be adapted to wall mount but one thing they will not have is as good of a holographic depth to the stereo image compared to floor standing units removed 4 ft from a wall.
WRT the above, one thing you have to make clear to yourself is what kind of listener are you? The kind who sits in one place, and only one place when listening to the speakers? Or one who likes to change position and maybe even walk around while listening, and will there be more than one person listening?
I'd say that for the vast majority of people it would be the second type most of the time, and the rest of the time a really high quality set of headphones would probably be as good if not a better option.
Also what does it really mean to recreate a stereo image faithfully? Should it sound exactly as in the studio or concert and is that even possible?
The room will always contribute some. If you choose highly directional speakers, only some of the spectrum will not be so affected by the room, while the lower notes will still be affected. This is not "correct" reproduction in the positivistic sense. And also the speakers will sound "HiFi-ish" outside the sweetspot. That is, not natural.
You can very well have omnidirectional or ≈ 180 sound with a FR unit or units. Look around on the board there are many options.
I'd say that for the vast majority of people it would be the second type most of the time, and the rest of the time a really high quality set of headphones would probably be as good if not a better option.
Also what does it really mean to recreate a stereo image faithfully? Should it sound exactly as in the studio or concert and is that even possible?
The room will always contribute some. If you choose highly directional speakers, only some of the spectrum will not be so affected by the room, while the lower notes will still be affected. This is not "correct" reproduction in the positivistic sense. And also the speakers will sound "HiFi-ish" outside the sweetspot. That is, not natural.
You can very well have omnidirectional or ≈ 180 sound with a FR unit or units. Look around on the board there are many options.
Thanks. I'll definitely check out the recommendations from both of you (the Cornu's sound interesting, but for my purposes they would probably require taking down some of our artwork, which would be a difficult choice).
Those are great points, Squeak. Portability is likely a desirable feature of dedicated listening speakers to allow for the fine tuning of position and such. But I know in my own case most of my listening is not of a dedicated sort. Instead, most of the time I'm listening to speakers while at the computer, or in the kitchen cooking, or in the basement working at my woodworking bench, and so on. As a result, multiple listening perspectives is an integral part of most of the listening that I do. Thus it would seem that most of my speakers should not be designed with a narrow, finicky sweet spot in mind, but should sound interesting and appealing from multiple perspectives. This includes, of course, watching TV and movies where you have multiple people present.
It is with places like the kitchen or home cinema in mind that I ask the question about wall mounted speakers, for these would seem to be ideal designs for these kinds of environments and uses.
Those are great points, Squeak. Portability is likely a desirable feature of dedicated listening speakers to allow for the fine tuning of position and such. But I know in my own case most of my listening is not of a dedicated sort. Instead, most of the time I'm listening to speakers while at the computer, or in the kitchen cooking, or in the basement working at my woodworking bench, and so on. As a result, multiple listening perspectives is an integral part of most of the listening that I do. Thus it would seem that most of my speakers should not be designed with a narrow, finicky sweet spot in mind, but should sound interesting and appealing from multiple perspectives. This includes, of course, watching TV and movies where you have multiple people present.
It is with places like the kitchen or home cinema in mind that I ask the question about wall mounted speakers, for these would seem to be ideal designs for these kinds of environments and uses.
I recommended this before: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2400456/html/Elias_Pekonen/SingleSpeakerStereo.html
Very easy to test out. Use two or three speakers back to back. The third can be simulated by small partial reflectors. Remember to turn up the treble a bit.
It requires quite symmetric positioning in the room and also not too much stuff blocking the reflections, although a little helps the diffusion.
Read Eliases posts on this board for more elaborate explanations.
The idea is fairly old, dating back to at least the 60's in various incarnations.
Alternatives could be using two or more drivers in bipole config or set at an angle to each other.
Or use reflectors, cone, wedge etc.
Very easy to test out. Use two or three speakers back to back. The third can be simulated by small partial reflectors. Remember to turn up the treble a bit.
It requires quite symmetric positioning in the room and also not too much stuff blocking the reflections, although a little helps the diffusion.
Read Eliases posts on this board for more elaborate explanations.
The idea is fairly old, dating back to at least the 60's in various incarnations.
Alternatives could be using two or more drivers in bipole config or set at an angle to each other.
Or use reflectors, cone, wedge etc.
Last edited:
Not if you use hinges and prop the speakers up on something before making holes in the wall.
And toe-in is not always necessary. A lot of the time drivers pointing straight ahead is surprisingly the best option. Especially with smaller drivers and esp. WRT a broader sweetspot.
Last edited:
There are plans for wall hung speakers using CHR-70's here;
Frugal-phile | Box Library / Mark Audio
Frugal-phile | Box Library / Mark Audio
Welcome!
Here are two builds following exactly your train of thought. Like xrk971 said, no baffle step to take care off and hence imho smoother + more detailed sound.
These are a great low budget build and due to the small cone the dispersion of high frequency is ok, so alignment on axis isn't necessary.
These are more cost intensive. They pack more punch and authority then the above. They are designed to be placed against the walls. Here are the rough dimensions. The foot isn't really necessary, you can put them smack on the wall, just fix them securely so they don't fall over.
I build and am listening to both
For an easy inexpensive start into diy-loudspeakers i recommend the first. Can also be build in a very small enclosure as a satellite speaker in a closed box, then the cut off is around 100Hz so a sub should be added.
Have fun experimenting and no worries about asking "stupid" questions!!!
Here are two builds following exactly your train of thought. Like xrk971 said, no baffle step to take care off and hence imho smoother + more detailed sound.
These are a great low budget build and due to the small cone the dispersion of high frequency is ok, so alignment on axis isn't necessary.
These are more cost intensive. They pack more punch and authority then the above. They are designed to be placed against the walls. Here are the rough dimensions. The foot isn't really necessary, you can put them smack on the wall, just fix them securely so they don't fall over.
I build and am listening to both
For an easy inexpensive start into diy-loudspeakers i recommend the first. Can also be build in a very small enclosure as a satellite speaker in a closed box, then the cut off is around 100Hz so a sub should be added.
Have fun experimenting and no worries about asking "stupid" questions!!!
Last edited:
Thanks for the excellent ideas and suggestions, everyone. Great stuff.
Picking up on an earlier idea from picowallsspeaker, I think I'm going to experiment with a couple of small drivers I picked up from a yard sale for now ($2.00). The drivers are from a pair of Pioneer S-FCR200-K rear speakers and while the cabinets are horribly thin, resonant plastic, the little 4" drivers that were inside them actually don't look too bad (V10EC61-51F). I can't find much information on them, but since I don't have any measuring instruments anyway, I'll just play around with variations on the enclosures suggested here and see how they sound against the wall I plan to use.
Picking up on an earlier idea from picowallsspeaker, I think I'm going to experiment with a couple of small drivers I picked up from a yard sale for now ($2.00). The drivers are from a pair of Pioneer S-FCR200-K rear speakers and while the cabinets are horribly thin, resonant plastic, the little 4" drivers that were inside them actually don't look too bad (V10EC61-51F). I can't find much information on them, but since I don't have any measuring instruments anyway, I'll just play around with variations on the enclosures suggested here and see how they sound against the wall I plan to use.
On wall loudspeakers can be great!
Picowall is not correct!
Also, with all due respect to PW, he is simply not qualified to give a valid opinion....Not that this stops many members giving their "2 cents worth".
This is precisely where the expression " 2 cents worth" originated.....Well meaning but utterly useless opinions being expressed.
Sadly these opinions are too often believed to have real value or substance.
I have found that the best way to sort the " sheep from the shepherds" and to benefit from the vast number of true experts and industry professionals who kindly donate their time and advice free of charge, is to research the CV's of those individuals you choose to follow and read their ideas.
It never ceases to amaze me how much I can learn from so many guys on this site, I am humbly grateful to those who have helped and guided myself along the way....
Sorry about the pre-amble but it was required!
Now to answer your original questions...
The truth is that the vast majority of speakers are designed for free space ie away from walls, and obviously this is where they sound best
Another truth is that if a designer knows what he / she is doing then one can build a very high quality system for on wall or in wall use.
This can be done with conventional drivers, although they best ones are very expensive.
I have been developing ( and still learning a lot!) a range of on wall BMR based loudspeakers...I am delighted with the results to date, overall the most satisfying and life like home reproduction of music and movie sound tracks I have ever experienced.
I don't say this lightly, as my previous reference design was an astonishing performer ( better be at $70,000!!) in its own right, here is a review of it....
6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
A few pics of the new on wall line arrays to follow.
Cheers
Derek.
Picowall is not correct!
Also, with all due respect to PW, he is simply not qualified to give a valid opinion....Not that this stops many members giving their "2 cents worth".
This is precisely where the expression " 2 cents worth" originated.....Well meaning but utterly useless opinions being expressed.
Sadly these opinions are too often believed to have real value or substance.
I have found that the best way to sort the " sheep from the shepherds" and to benefit from the vast number of true experts and industry professionals who kindly donate their time and advice free of charge, is to research the CV's of those individuals you choose to follow and read their ideas.
It never ceases to amaze me how much I can learn from so many guys on this site, I am humbly grateful to those who have helped and guided myself along the way....
Sorry about the pre-amble but it was required!
Now to answer your original questions...
The truth is that the vast majority of speakers are designed for free space ie away from walls, and obviously this is where they sound best
Another truth is that if a designer knows what he / she is doing then one can build a very high quality system for on wall or in wall use.
This can be done with conventional drivers, although they best ones are very expensive.
I have been developing ( and still learning a lot!) a range of on wall BMR based loudspeakers...I am delighted with the results to date, overall the most satisfying and life like home reproduction of music and movie sound tracks I have ever experienced.
I don't say this lightly, as my previous reference design was an astonishing performer ( better be at $70,000!!) in its own right, here is a review of it....
6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
A few pics of the new on wall line arrays to follow.
Cheers
Derek.
Overkill Audio,
Those are some beautiful speakers. As to your comments, I must confess that the little I know about speaker design would have led me to guess that speakers can indeed be designed with the wall in mind. I'm just surprised more DIY'rs don't seem to be as involved in those kinds of projects (at least not the ones I read here).
sreten,
Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "a lot more wood"? Do you mean the thickness/rigidity of the speaker panels or do you mean more wood in linear sense?
Those are some beautiful speakers. As to your comments, I must confess that the little I know about speaker design would have led me to guess that speakers can indeed be designed with the wall in mind. I'm just surprised more DIY'rs don't seem to be as involved in those kinds of projects (at least not the ones I read here).
sreten,
Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "a lot more wood"? Do you mean the thickness/rigidity of the speaker panels or do you mean more wood in linear sense?
New build potential
Hi Sreten,
Yes, if in a new build situation one can save on some materials by utilising the cavities in the wall, but this is a low end compromise best suited to budget installations ie cafe's shopping malls etc.
The problem with most walls is the are not solid enough and introduce a different ( usually lower in frequency) set of problems.
Note I don't mean any more energy, just a lower Fs of the problem.
I found that the mounting method is vital ( where have I heard that before...!) ie if I just hung the speaker like a picture on the wall there were a lot of sonic problems...
Only when I rebated into the back of the speaker heavy brass " key slot " mounting brackets did everything click into place...
The sound stage suddenly opened up and instruments remained stable regardless of SPL or program complexity...
Vocals materialised in there own space and had astonishing presence and believability....
Dynamics...Well simply astonishing, from pleasant high end hifi to astonishing even shocking when the music / movie soundtrack called for this...
The reason for this sonic transformation is ( I believe) that only when the speaker is tightly "bonded" to the wall does the speaker then take on the mass of the wall itself.
Assuming one has build a solid non resonant cabinet, this cabinet effectively becomes an massive immovable object and only the drivers do the moving...
To better illustrate this effect one can imagine the opposite...
A light weight, flimsy freestanding speaker cabinet with a powerful 15 inch Pro driver ( Sixteen 4.5 inch drivers Sd = a single 15 inch driver Sd) standing on a smooth floor...Every forward motion of the driver cone would "rock " the speaker cabinet back..." For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
The above is just one of the many surprises designing the on wall arrays have thrown up....Boundary reinforcement, cabinet depth Vs baffle width, internal reflections and of course the driver itself... The BMR is a real challenge as all TS parameters and conventional simulations are just not valid.
Anyway, I urge everyone to have a go at on wall / in wall loudspeakers, using cheap full range drivers the costs are low and the results can be great!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Sreten,
Yes, if in a new build situation one can save on some materials by utilising the cavities in the wall, but this is a low end compromise best suited to budget installations ie cafe's shopping malls etc.
The problem with most walls is the are not solid enough and introduce a different ( usually lower in frequency) set of problems.
Note I don't mean any more energy, just a lower Fs of the problem.
I found that the mounting method is vital ( where have I heard that before...!) ie if I just hung the speaker like a picture on the wall there were a lot of sonic problems...
Only when I rebated into the back of the speaker heavy brass " key slot " mounting brackets did everything click into place...
The sound stage suddenly opened up and instruments remained stable regardless of SPL or program complexity...
Vocals materialised in there own space and had astonishing presence and believability....
Dynamics...Well simply astonishing, from pleasant high end hifi to astonishing even shocking when the music / movie soundtrack called for this...
The reason for this sonic transformation is ( I believe) that only when the speaker is tightly "bonded" to the wall does the speaker then take on the mass of the wall itself.
Assuming one has build a solid non resonant cabinet, this cabinet effectively becomes an massive immovable object and only the drivers do the moving...
To better illustrate this effect one can imagine the opposite...
A light weight, flimsy freestanding speaker cabinet with a powerful 15 inch Pro driver ( Sixteen 4.5 inch drivers Sd = a single 15 inch driver Sd) standing on a smooth floor...Every forward motion of the driver cone would "rock " the speaker cabinet back..." For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"
The above is just one of the many surprises designing the on wall arrays have thrown up....Boundary reinforcement, cabinet depth Vs baffle width, internal reflections and of course the driver itself... The BMR is a real challenge as all TS parameters and conventional simulations are just not valid.
Anyway, I urge everyone to have a go at on wall / in wall loudspeakers, using cheap full range drivers the costs are low and the results can be great!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi,
Work out the amount of wood needed to enclose 0.5 cuft
if its a) a cube, b) only 2" internally deep and say height
to width is 3:1. Compare total volume to enclosed.
Assume 3/4" wall thickness for the exercise.
Its pretty clear the latter is going to be poor, with
1.5" of the total depth of 3.5" taken up by wood.
rgds, sreten.
Boxes aren't cubes but sort of near. For flat speakers
to go on walls basically normal box methods and the
extra bracing that would be needed is very inefficient.
Last edited:
Hi Philosophil,
Thanks, glad you like the speakers!
I do hope you decide to give on wall a try, its low cost and you cant go too far wrong....You can easily move them around, or make them into stand mounts or free standing if you change your mind.
Going " In - Wall" is a bit more final as you cant really move em around much after you fit them!
Also redecoration is a pain, so best to learn your art with on wall then go for it with your in wall " End Game"!
Good luck and happy to help you if I can.
Cheers
Derek.
Thanks, glad you like the speakers!
I do hope you decide to give on wall a try, its low cost and you cant go too far wrong....You can easily move them around, or make them into stand mounts or free standing if you change your mind.
Going " In - Wall" is a bit more final as you cant really move em around much after you fit them!
Also redecoration is a pain, so best to learn your art with on wall then go for it with your in wall " End Game"!
Good luck and happy to help you if I can.
Cheers
Derek.
Low cost? It's as low cost as you make it but that goes for any speaker.
And no, they are not easy to move around, unless you think fixing holes in the wall every time is easy. A speaker specifically made for the wall will most likely have problems on a stand, with regards to port placement, driver hight etc.
It's best to think hard and test if possible, before settling on any option.
Not if you do it right...
Squeak,
Which part of this thread " Wall mounted speakers" didn't you manage to grasp?
Your point : " Low cost? It's as low cost as you make it but that goes for any speaker."
This is not the case at all, but how would you know otherwise?
When designing for on wall you save a huge amount on cabinet cost, also stands and heavy spiked bases become redundant.
Even a light weight (but ridged) on wall cabinet gains from the "infinite mass" of being fixed tight against a wall. Instead of 100Kg plus floor standing speaker, one can achieve bass power and dynamics from a much lower cost on wall cabinet.
This is a very important point, one of the 3 key benefits ( superior room integration & greater efficiency being the other 2) of on wall mounting and whilst I understand you have no experience of this I would refer you to my opening remarks in my earlier post ( 6.09 pm).
As soon as you design for on wall you are free from the majority of room placement issues, this greatly simplifies the speaker placement.
For starters, 50 % of room placement issue is the rear wall reflection....!
By design, on wall turns this problem into a benefit ie boundary reinforcement of low midrange and bass. Basically efficiency gain within a certain bandwidth.
You can place the speakers for listening area ( not just seat!) height, with even small to medium arrays ( 60cm to 1.2m tall) you can cover a large vertical height.
Your point:" And no, they are not easy to move around, unless you think fixing holes in the wall every time is easy."[I][/I]
I was assuming one would lean the speakers against the wall to test before drilling the screws into the wall....Or even use temporary stands or blocks to lift them clear of the floor....All very advanced stuff Squeak...!LOL
Your point : "A speaker specifically made for the wall will most likely have problems on a stand, with regards to port placement, driver hight etc."
Ooops, Wrong!
Lets say you have built a small on wall array and want to make it a stand mount or add a bass cabinet / sub....
Simply mount the on wall cabinets on top of the bass cabinet or subwoofer to compensate for the loss of low midrange / bass performance when you take it "Off The Wall"
The height of the bass or sub cabinet is the same height as you make the stand for a stand mount of that height...Just let me know if I am going to fast...!
I have never designed any speaker with a port, I am sensitive to the out of phase bass / low mid muck that they usually add to the direct sound.
If you want a port, go for it, front or base would work, spacers if in base and mounting cabinet on top of sub.
Your point final point " It's best to think hard and test if possible, before settling on any option. "
I agree...Also best to this before jumping to the wrong conclusions, & posting them!
Hope you take these answers in the spirit which I wrote them...Red wine and a smile! LOL
Cheers
Derek.
Squeak,
Which part of this thread " Wall mounted speakers" didn't you manage to grasp?
Your point : " Low cost? It's as low cost as you make it but that goes for any speaker."
This is not the case at all, but how would you know otherwise?
When designing for on wall you save a huge amount on cabinet cost, also stands and heavy spiked bases become redundant.
Even a light weight (but ridged) on wall cabinet gains from the "infinite mass" of being fixed tight against a wall. Instead of 100Kg plus floor standing speaker, one can achieve bass power and dynamics from a much lower cost on wall cabinet.
This is a very important point, one of the 3 key benefits ( superior room integration & greater efficiency being the other 2) of on wall mounting and whilst I understand you have no experience of this I would refer you to my opening remarks in my earlier post ( 6.09 pm).
As soon as you design for on wall you are free from the majority of room placement issues, this greatly simplifies the speaker placement.
For starters, 50 % of room placement issue is the rear wall reflection....!
By design, on wall turns this problem into a benefit ie boundary reinforcement of low midrange and bass. Basically efficiency gain within a certain bandwidth.
You can place the speakers for listening area ( not just seat!) height, with even small to medium arrays ( 60cm to 1.2m tall) you can cover a large vertical height.
Your point:" And no, they are not easy to move around, unless you think fixing holes in the wall every time is easy."[I][/I]
I was assuming one would lean the speakers against the wall to test before drilling the screws into the wall....Or even use temporary stands or blocks to lift them clear of the floor....All very advanced stuff Squeak...!LOL
Your point : "A speaker specifically made for the wall will most likely have problems on a stand, with regards to port placement, driver hight etc."
Ooops, Wrong!
Lets say you have built a small on wall array and want to make it a stand mount or add a bass cabinet / sub....
Simply mount the on wall cabinets on top of the bass cabinet or subwoofer to compensate for the loss of low midrange / bass performance when you take it "Off The Wall"
The height of the bass or sub cabinet is the same height as you make the stand for a stand mount of that height...Just let me know if I am going to fast...!
I have never designed any speaker with a port, I am sensitive to the out of phase bass / low mid muck that they usually add to the direct sound.
If you want a port, go for it, front or base would work, spacers if in base and mounting cabinet on top of sub.
Your point final point " It's best to think hard and test if possible, before settling on any option. "
I agree...Also best to this before jumping to the wrong conclusions, & posting them!
Hope you take these answers in the spirit which I wrote them...Red wine and a smile! LOL
Cheers
Derek.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.