Another question: Would wall mounting a speaker be better suited to a sealed enclosure over a bass reflex, or would it be equally suited to either? I ask this because my old Boston Acoustics A400's are shallow, sealed enclosures that were actually designed to be placed against a wall, so it has me wondering if wall placement is better suited to sealed enclosures.
On wall, sealed or ported?
I am very firmly in the "sealed is best" camp.
I tried ported bass and low mid cabinets with Volt, PHL, Seas and Beyma drivers, following the TS parameters and manufacturers recommendations.
In all cases I could hear the time smearing or out of phase low midrange / bass muck coming out of the ports.
It is least offensive in really low ( below 50Hz) subs and for home cinema effects I can see why some guys like it.
But for music forget it, " Ports "Suck" !!
Nowadays with the availability of free or low cost high quality DSP its far better to stay sealed and use some DSP to Eq (& crossover to your subs ) the in room sound to taste.
JRiver is a screaming bargain and includes a flexible and high quality suite of DSP effects.
Eventually, if you really go high end with the whole system, amps, DAC's and speakers then its worth bypassing the in built JRiver DSP and using the "Plugins" facility....
Fab Filter FabFilter Pro-Q - Equalizer Plug-In VST VST3 AU AAX RTAS AudioSuite
or Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat's Liny EQ - Low Latency Linear Phase Equalizer Plug-in (VST, Audio Unit, AAX, RTAS, DX)
Eq'd, on Wall, sealed, line array's with full range drivers ( BMRs are best here) will launch perfectly coherent sound waves into your room like no other domestic system can....
The natural easy dynamics just pump out, its an absolutely fabulous experience...I have never spent so much time dancing round the room with music pouring out at high SPL's...sooooo addictive, I love em.
Cheers
Derek.
I am very firmly in the "sealed is best" camp.
I tried ported bass and low mid cabinets with Volt, PHL, Seas and Beyma drivers, following the TS parameters and manufacturers recommendations.
In all cases I could hear the time smearing or out of phase low midrange / bass muck coming out of the ports.
It is least offensive in really low ( below 50Hz) subs and for home cinema effects I can see why some guys like it.
But for music forget it, " Ports "Suck" !!
Nowadays with the availability of free or low cost high quality DSP its far better to stay sealed and use some DSP to Eq (& crossover to your subs ) the in room sound to taste.
JRiver is a screaming bargain and includes a flexible and high quality suite of DSP effects.
Eventually, if you really go high end with the whole system, amps, DAC's and speakers then its worth bypassing the in built JRiver DSP and using the "Plugins" facility....
Fab Filter FabFilter Pro-Q - Equalizer Plug-In VST VST3 AU AAX RTAS AudioSuite
or Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat's Liny EQ - Low Latency Linear Phase Equalizer Plug-in (VST, Audio Unit, AAX, RTAS, DX)
Eq'd, on Wall, sealed, line array's with full range drivers ( BMRs are best here) will launch perfectly coherent sound waves into your room like no other domestic system can....
The natural easy dynamics just pump out, its an absolutely fabulous experience...I have never spent so much time dancing round the room with music pouring out at high SPL's...sooooo addictive, I love em.
Cheers
Derek.
A couple of thoughts. Alison made a speaker (Model 6 from memory) designed to go right against a wall. which had an upward firing bass/midrange, and a forward facing tweeter.
I have tried more conventional speakers hard against a wall. I used cone tweeters which are more directional. It is a good idea to have wider shallower speakers for wall mounting. It usually means that the need for baffle step correction is eliminated.
I have tried more conventional speakers hard against a wall. I used cone tweeters which are more directional. It is a good idea to have wider shallower speakers for wall mounting. It usually means that the need for baffle step correction is eliminated.
Der, brain not plugged in. This is the Full Range site, so ignore my last offering. However, I did make a Lowther quarter wave speaker with an upward firing driver which was right against the wall, with a tile as a reflector at about 45 degrees mounted about 5 mm above the drive unit. I used these as my main speakers for a couple of years til I moved to a house that did not have the right wall space. I liked them a lot.
Wider and shallower
Hi Midrange,
Yes, wider and shallower cabinets tend to be best when mounting on wall.
The one area to watch here is the back wave issue,always tricky in any box ( open baffle has a huge advantage here...) but particularly so when you go shallow....
Pro's and Cons of shallow cabinets:
Cons:
(1) Reduce the cabinet depth and you reduce the effectiveness of the internal damping materials as you are reducing the path length through the internal damping material.
(2) You decrease the time it takes the rear sound wave to bounce back from the rear wall of the cabinet and out through the cone.( see 1 below)
Pro's:
(1) Reduce or eliminate ( with curved side walls) the baffle step effect.
(2) You decrease the time it takes the rear sound wave to bounce back from the rear wall of the cabinet and out through the cone. ( See 2 above)
This is an interesting one....There is some debate about the human ears ability to detect two sounds separated in time by only mille or even micro seconds.
Its a complex area and one that even audiologists disagree on, but it is generally accepted that time differences of less than 50 micro seconds can not be detected at all and differences greater than one hundredth of a second are easily separated and identified as echo's.
From a loudspeaker designers point of view you don't want your rear wave
" bounce back" time to be in the detection zone....
Make it really, really short, or make it so long that the ear / brain easily decodes it and recognises it as an echo and does not confuse it with the direct radiated sound.
Of course reducing the back wave emissions in amplitude is also vital....
Carefully designed asymmetrical internal cabinet shape.
Careful choice of cabinet materials, and at least 3 different types of internal materials to absorb / convert dissipate the sound energy are also vital.
So again what appears to be straight forward is often not!
Its all good fun and part of the satisfaction of designing and building your own speakers.
Cheers
D.
Hi Midrange,
Yes, wider and shallower cabinets tend to be best when mounting on wall.
The one area to watch here is the back wave issue,always tricky in any box ( open baffle has a huge advantage here...) but particularly so when you go shallow....
Pro's and Cons of shallow cabinets:
Cons:
(1) Reduce the cabinet depth and you reduce the effectiveness of the internal damping materials as you are reducing the path length through the internal damping material.
(2) You decrease the time it takes the rear sound wave to bounce back from the rear wall of the cabinet and out through the cone.( see 1 below)
Pro's:
(1) Reduce or eliminate ( with curved side walls) the baffle step effect.
(2) You decrease the time it takes the rear sound wave to bounce back from the rear wall of the cabinet and out through the cone. ( See 2 above)
This is an interesting one....There is some debate about the human ears ability to detect two sounds separated in time by only mille or even micro seconds.
Its a complex area and one that even audiologists disagree on, but it is generally accepted that time differences of less than 50 micro seconds can not be detected at all and differences greater than one hundredth of a second are easily separated and identified as echo's.
From a loudspeaker designers point of view you don't want your rear wave
" bounce back" time to be in the detection zone....
Make it really, really short, or make it so long that the ear / brain easily decodes it and recognises it as an echo and does not confuse it with the direct radiated sound.
Of course reducing the back wave emissions in amplitude is also vital....
Carefully designed asymmetrical internal cabinet shape.
Careful choice of cabinet materials, and at least 3 different types of internal materials to absorb / convert dissipate the sound energy are also vital.
So again what appears to be straight forward is often not!
Its all good fun and part of the satisfaction of designing and building your own speakers.
Cheers
D.
Hi,
Or your design skills do. Don't highjack a thread
to propound a load of your personal opinions.
Ports can work well, as well as can be bad.
However since they typically need cabinets twice
as large as sealed, and wall mounted speakers
struggle with supporting volume, sealed is the
preferable choice most of the time.
rgds, sreten.
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Humbly beg forgivness...
Sooooo Sorry sretin,
I would not have dared express my views on any aspect of loudspeaker design had I realised that you might disagree or be offended.
I withdraw my remarks and do hope the original poster and others reading this can be better guided by your experience and wisdom.
Maybe in fact you should complain again to the moderators and simply have all my posts deleted as I fear that I may have given others some advice which contradicts your superior knowledge and experience.
Humbly yours and hoping to make all this up to you one day.
Derek.
Sooooo Sorry sretin,
I would not have dared express my views on any aspect of loudspeaker design had I realised that you might disagree or be offended.
I withdraw my remarks and do hope the original poster and others reading this can be better guided by your experience and wisdom.
Maybe in fact you should complain again to the moderators and simply have all my posts deleted as I fear that I may have given others some advice which contradicts your superior knowledge and experience.
Humbly yours and hoping to make all this up to you one day.
Derek.
I have given some thought to the benefits/disadvantages of wide shallow cabinets. Apart from if wall mounting, a w/s cabinet helps to eliminate baffle step problems, there is the question of reflections and standing waves.
My thought is that sound emanates in all directions from the rear of the drive unit. Now to go to extremes to illustrate. If the baffle was the size of the drive unit, All the rear radiation reflected from the back of cabinet would arrive back at the drive unit.
However with a wide cabinet, only a fraction of the sound reflected from the rear of the cabinet would arrive at the drive unit. The simple thought being that in this instance the drive unit area is only a fraction of the baffle area. Most of the reflected sound will hit the baffle rather than the drive unit. Very unscientific.
My thought is that sound emanates in all directions from the rear of the drive unit. Now to go to extremes to illustrate. If the baffle was the size of the drive unit, All the rear radiation reflected from the back of cabinet would arrive back at the drive unit.
However with a wide cabinet, only a fraction of the sound reflected from the rear of the cabinet would arrive at the drive unit. The simple thought being that in this instance the drive unit area is only a fraction of the baffle area. Most of the reflected sound will hit the baffle rather than the drive unit. Very unscientific.
I've designed and built about 4 in-wall speakers. Note, in-wall, not on-wall. I built my speakers right into the wall and diffraction is quite minimal. They have all been multi-ways, though one was a FAST, so close to full range. Two have been very good, one is pretty good, and one was fairly bad. The bad one was not because of the wall though. In-wall has a huge advantage over boxed speakers: 6db in the heaviest bands!!! That's simply HUGE. Sure, you can't toe or move for placement. So best to triple check that out before cutting a massive hole in your wall like I did. But when you eliminate one of the walls, there's less placement issue right off the bat.
I get great imaging and soundstage with mine. I need to spend some time working on my bass though. I just changed my sub setup a little bit and need to do some measurements and re-program my minidsp. It's a lot of work to get this system sounding good. But it really does sound good to me (all that matters). Last night I watched a couple concert blu rays, and the dynamics are out of this world. A true 98db/w/m sensitivity system with low diffraction, very few modal issues, etc... What I'm trying to say is, Ya, it's a good idea. I don't think many people have actually heard in/on-wall systems and they're just repeating what others have said. For those that have heard them, they're very good.
I get great imaging and soundstage with mine. I need to spend some time working on my bass though. I just changed my sub setup a little bit and need to do some measurements and re-program my minidsp. It's a lot of work to get this system sounding good. But it really does sound good to me (all that matters). Last night I watched a couple concert blu rays, and the dynamics are out of this world. A true 98db/w/m sensitivity system with low diffraction, very few modal issues, etc... What I'm trying to say is, Ya, it's a good idea. I don't think many people have actually heard in/on-wall systems and they're just repeating what others have said. For those that have heard them, they're very good.
In / on-wall speakers are like anything else: a compromise. The compromises just happen to be a bit different from 'regular' speaker enclosures, & therefore you have to work with / through them as per any good design practice. They are not a panacea, but they are as valid as anything else; ultimately you pick what best meets your criteria.
yeah, some speakers seem to play very good that way
could be something related to symmetric placement
maybe reflection are dealt with in a better and more controlled way
I have seen it, and heard it
but never tried it myself
it would go against anything I believed in
and it still does
but for some people its a bless
I suppose inwall/onwall goes the same way
could be something related to symmetric placement
maybe reflection are dealt with in a better and more controlled way
I have seen it, and heard it
but never tried it myself
it would go against anything I believed in
and it still does
but for some people its a bless
I suppose inwall/onwall goes the same way
Some great suggestions and comments here, but this leads directly to my next question: What things should I be taking into consideration when trying to design a wall mounted speaker?
Right now I'm thinking about trying to build speakers for our kitchen and I'm playing with two possibilities: 1) A wall mounted speaker above a doorway that happens to be centered along one wall, or 2) A corner mounted speaker that would be pointed towards the working center of the room. In each case the speakers would be mounted above normal listening levels (either sitting or standing). I would then direct the sound towards the middle of the working space by angling the baffle of the speakers downwards slightly so that the baffle is not parallel to the rear of the speaker (so the driver is off-axis to the ceiling). In this way I hope to alleviate some of the problems associated with rear reflection and standing waves (as noted by midrange). I'm also hoping (though I have little to go on here) that this will also help create a wider listening area so that the speakers will sound appealing enough from a variety of listening perspectives (e.g. cooking and eating).
Any comments or suggestions relating to the kinds of things I should be considering for either of these proposals would be welcome.
The fact is, it's already been done ! Little drivers housed in plastic boxes pointing at you, with the subwoofer on the floor : Yes ! cheap multimedia 2.1 speakers !
BTW There was a thread 2-3 month ago about a guy who wanted to build backloaded horns inside the wall; my answer would have then been the same: you'd get the same result
with much less work by using a 10 W powered subwoofer. At least, you can work on the satellites and the sub as well, by not using plastic .
BTW There was a thread 2-3 month ago about a guy who wanted to build backloaded horns inside the wall; my answer would have then been the same: you'd get the same result
with much less work by using a 10 W powered subwoofer. At least, you can work on the satellites and the sub as well, by not using plastic .
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I personally wouldn't bother trying a corner loaded full ranger. The direcitivity would come at the expense of smooth response. If a properly designed corner horn was used, sure.
Philosophil, not quite sure I can picture what you're trying here. I'd stay away from reflective surface and about a 1/3rd the way up the wall, if possible.
Philosophil, not quite sure I can picture what you're trying here. I'd stay away from reflective surface and about a 1/3rd the way up the wall, if possible.
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