was talking to Nanook about this but I have lost the drawing i had of it. Does anyone here have a drawing of the Well Tempered Turn Table platter besring assembly? Thanks.
Here's the original patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4792938.html
Sign in and you can download it as a pdf including the drawings. It's a start.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4792938.html
Sign in and you can download it as a pdf including the drawings. It's a start.
Go to welltemperedlab.com
You can buy it for 215 clams
The 4 teflon pad solution is interesting.. but I don,t believe this design would work well with a heavy DIY platter if someone might roll there own. His platter assembly was light weight to allow the pull by the motor/belt assembly with the resultant zero tolerance bearing idea he was shooting for.
There,s not enough surface area involved and the thought that even teflon actually touching the shaft on rotation would or could lower noise compared to the traditional larger oil film distribution solutions seems remote. My speculation only on this.
His arm was a true original though.
Regards
David
You can buy it for 215 clams
The 4 teflon pad solution is interesting.. but I don,t believe this design would work well with a heavy DIY platter if someone might roll there own. His platter assembly was light weight to allow the pull by the motor/belt assembly with the resultant zero tolerance bearing idea he was shooting for.
There,s not enough surface area involved and the thought that even teflon actually touching the shaft on rotation would or could lower noise compared to the traditional larger oil film distribution solutions seems remote. My speculation only on this.
His arm was a true original though.
Regards
David
Moray, thanks for the links....
I had seen this previously.
As far as I can see it, it appears to provide lateral Teflon pads, and a vertical "thrust" pad or ball to support the weight.
I've basically come to the point where the main bearing can easily just be a single ball riding on a Teflon pad, if the lateral bearing is of sufficient quality and precise enough. Using custom machine Super-Oilite bushings is appropriate and has worked to good effect.
stew
I had seen this previously.
As far as I can see it, it appears to provide lateral Teflon pads, and a vertical "thrust" pad or ball to support the weight.
I've basically come to the point where the main bearing can easily just be a single ball riding on a Teflon pad, if the lateral bearing is of sufficient quality and precise enough. Using custom machine Super-Oilite bushings is appropriate and has worked to good effect.
stew
The new Well Tempered Amadeus turntable has a different bearing arrangement. It has three points of contact instead of five, and no pads.
The upper bearing is once again based on the V-block principle. Instead of pads, however, the spindle is pushed by the belt toward the corner of a square hole in a Teflon bearing. The lower bearing is much other turntables, consisting of a point in the bottom of the spindle resting on a thrust bearing.
Yes, a picture would be worth a thousand words, but I don't know of one. The instruction manual for the turntable shows the parts, and it's available at www.welltemperedlab.net.
The arm, by the way, is also different, although it works according to the same principles as the original.
JPO
The upper bearing is once again based on the V-block principle. Instead of pads, however, the spindle is pushed by the belt toward the corner of a square hole in a Teflon bearing. The lower bearing is much other turntables, consisting of a point in the bottom of the spindle resting on a thrust bearing.
Yes, a picture would be worth a thousand words, but I don't know of one. The instruction manual for the turntable shows the parts, and it's available at www.welltemperedlab.net.
The arm, by the way, is also different, although it works according to the same principles as the original.
JPO
er, your link...
is wrong (I got re-directed to Tivoli, a nice place to visit but not where I wanted to go--I already have a Model One 🙂 ).
the correct one is here ...or another is here
Changing the design by what can be deemed "significant" is enough to put the patent back into effect. I am sure Bill Firebaugh has plenty of the grey stuff between his ears to ensure that.
stew
is wrong (I got re-directed to Tivoli, a nice place to visit but not where I wanted to go--I already have a Model One 🙂 ).
the correct one is here ...or another is here
Changing the design by what can be deemed "significant" is enough to put the patent back into effect. I am sure Bill Firebaugh has plenty of the grey stuff between his ears to ensure that.
stew
Sorry about that!
And thanks for making things right!
I had the latter link in mind, by the way.
JPO
And thanks for making things right!
I had the latter link in mind, by the way.
JPO
jpo...no prbs , mahn...
no apology required. Just thought I'd "help out" and post a couple that would get folks close...
The bearing is a round spindle in a square well, it really does seem pretty simple, and ingenious--aren't all the great things "simpler"?
stew
no apology required. Just thought I'd "help out" and post a couple that would get folks close...
The bearing is a round spindle in a square well, it really does seem pretty simple, and ingenious--aren't all the great things "simpler"?
stew
Well I think this round in square approach is about the only way one can make a diy bearing with sufficient precision without special tooling.
I did something like that in my scrapyard turntable by fitting a prepared teflon sleeve (with defined touch-pints) in a thorens 10 mm bearing and using a subplatter with a 8 mm spindle. Not entirely diy but it proves the concept very well.
MArco
I did something like that in my scrapyard turntable by fitting a prepared teflon sleeve (with defined touch-pints) in a thorens 10 mm bearing and using a subplatter with a 8 mm spindle. Not entirely diy but it proves the concept very well.
MArco
Since the bearing relies on side thrust to seat the spindle it might be interesting to try an idler arrangment rather than a belt pushing on instead of pulling on the side of the platter.Its funny how this forum works because I have just been thinking of this as a solution and pondering the willy firebourough bearing and this tjread pops up.No doubt with the release of the new armadeus but on a whole i have been a big fan of his thinking for a good while. Hes a true original, god bless him
cheers fergs
cheers fergs
To the Admin,
I am currently being monitored as I am new. I did not know I would not be able to make posts.
I spent 3 hous typing and making a new thread about my project and I was hoping you would be able to approve it as I think is is very interesting to many people.
below is what I wrote up. I hope all the links to pics work.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi there,
I am currently building my own record cutting lathe from various bits and pieces I have collected in my shortish time here on earth and thought I'd share some of these pics with you and throw some ideas back and forth.
Ok so this project is loosely based around a Presto 14B Cutting lathe, which can be seen here:
I say loosely because as much as I have this lathe, I seem to have misplaced it! I have some bits but I believe it may have been stolen with a bunch of drag car race bits from my garage. That's another story.
In truth I believe the platter I am going to show you here is not even off the presto 14b at all.
I'd love to be an expert but I was only born in 1974 so I only know what I read. My lathe came from Studio 20 recording studios at Taylor Square in Sydney Australia (which started out back in the 1920's) from the old guy there who was 85 when I picked this gear up. He had a million stories but none that explained the parts missing or anything about it really except it cost him a small fortune.
So I am going to clean up as much as I can and build myself a cutting lathe. I have a Presto cutting head that is working and is fitted with a hill and dale type fixture on it which I will modify.
So anyway the bearing and platter:
I can tell the table is from a different lathe because in the above picture of the 14B. It sits on a massive block of cast iron. I know this because I have that bit of the lathe. It weighs about 80kgs! The center of the table is offset right to the front of this mount and there is no way my bearing will align with this cutout so that's how I know it's not the 14B's table.
Does anyone have info or history or working knowledge of these lathes? Anyone got a lathe they will sell me? I have gone on many quests to find lathes and know of most parts that I missed out on.
the platter of this table is made of Aluminum and is about 1 inch thick and 16 inch in diameter. It mounts to the bearing with a machined seat and 4 screws.
The bearing is a two part arrangement with a gearbox turning a flywheel below at a different speed to the platter. I am unsure how the platter was driven. Maybe with an idler wheel on the flywheel but there are no markings to indicate this.
It's a little hard to explain how the gearbox works but it uses 5 ball bearings mounted in an inner ring and an outer ring which I will call a ball race. The inner race is hard mounted to the bottom bearing and fly wheel, so when the flywheel spins so does the inside ring of the ball bearing race. (Sorry if I dont use all the correct terms. I am no engineer)
Upside down lower bearing which mounts the fly wheel, here you can see the 5 ball bearing.
The outer ball race is hard mounted to a sprung leaver that looks a bit like a horse shoe if you use your imagination. This ring is the clutch to stop the table spinning while the motor is still running.. You'll notice it has a little lip on it. This locates into a notch on the chrome plated housing plate. When it is locked in this notch it causes the outside ball race to remain stationary in relation to the housing, thus not spinning.
Because the outer ball race cannot spin it forces the balls to spin instead. The top bearing which the platter sits on has 5 notches cut into it that locate the 5 balls. The turning of the top platter forces the 5 balls to rotate inside the race at the same speed as the platter. Because the outside race is locked to the housing plate by the horse shoe looking thing, it forces the inner race to spin a faster speed due to it's smaller diameter (Or whatever makes it happen?!) and because the inner race is hard mounted to the bottom bearing it spins faster than the top turning the big flywheel which must be about 5 kgs at least..
Nothing like a ding bat to explain how stuff works!
there is also a bearing under the chrome plate but I have been unable to remove this plate yet. I'm not sure if it should just pop out cause right now it's pretty happy being in there.
So any thoughts? when holding the whole thing in your hands it's a bit hard to get a guage just how smooth it all it.
I took it to a bearing place yesterday and the engineers said it was probably one of the best feeling bearings they had seen considering how old it is. They said to clean it up and coat it with sowing machine oil. do you thinks this is best. I think once its spinning with the massive flywheel and platter it could easily move through motor oil.
I also have some questions about the lower bearing and it's spiral groove in the shaft. I imagine this is to move up oil from a well. but the case does not have a sleeve lining with a tolerance small enough to make this effective. Any thought?
Thanks for your time and I hope you have found this interesting!.
I am currently being monitored as I am new. I did not know I would not be able to make posts.
I spent 3 hous typing and making a new thread about my project and I was hoping you would be able to approve it as I think is is very interesting to many people.
below is what I wrote up. I hope all the links to pics work.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi there,
I am currently building my own record cutting lathe from various bits and pieces I have collected in my shortish time here on earth and thought I'd share some of these pics with you and throw some ideas back and forth.
Ok so this project is loosely based around a Presto 14B Cutting lathe, which can be seen here:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I say loosely because as much as I have this lathe, I seem to have misplaced it! I have some bits but I believe it may have been stolen with a bunch of drag car race bits from my garage. That's another story.
In truth I believe the platter I am going to show you here is not even off the presto 14b at all.
I'd love to be an expert but I was only born in 1974 so I only know what I read. My lathe came from Studio 20 recording studios at Taylor Square in Sydney Australia (which started out back in the 1920's) from the old guy there who was 85 when I picked this gear up. He had a million stories but none that explained the parts missing or anything about it really except it cost him a small fortune.
So I am going to clean up as much as I can and build myself a cutting lathe. I have a Presto cutting head that is working and is fitted with a hill and dale type fixture on it which I will modify.
So anyway the bearing and platter:
I can tell the table is from a different lathe because in the above picture of the 14B. It sits on a massive block of cast iron. I know this because I have that bit of the lathe. It weighs about 80kgs! The center of the table is offset right to the front of this mount and there is no way my bearing will align with this cutout so that's how I know it's not the 14B's table.
Does anyone have info or history or working knowledge of these lathes? Anyone got a lathe they will sell me? I have gone on many quests to find lathes and know of most parts that I missed out on.
the platter of this table is made of Aluminum and is about 1 inch thick and 16 inch in diameter. It mounts to the bearing with a machined seat and 4 screws.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
.JPG){kind=link}
The bearing is a two part arrangement with a gearbox turning a flywheel below at a different speed to the platter. I am unsure how the platter was driven. Maybe with an idler wheel on the flywheel but there are no markings to indicate this.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
.JPG){kind=link}
It's a little hard to explain how the gearbox works but it uses 5 ball bearings mounted in an inner ring and an outer ring which I will call a ball race. The inner race is hard mounted to the bottom bearing and fly wheel, so when the flywheel spins so does the inside ring of the ball bearing race. (Sorry if I dont use all the correct terms. I am no engineer)
Upside down lower bearing which mounts the fly wheel, here you can see the 5 ball bearing.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
.JPG){kind=link}
The outer ball race is hard mounted to a sprung leaver that looks a bit like a horse shoe if you use your imagination. This ring is the clutch to stop the table spinning while the motor is still running.. You'll notice it has a little lip on it. This locates into a notch on the chrome plated housing plate. When it is locked in this notch it causes the outside ball race to remain stationary in relation to the housing, thus not spinning.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
.JPG){kind=link}
Because the outer ball race cannot spin it forces the balls to spin instead. The top bearing which the platter sits on has 5 notches cut into it that locate the 5 balls. The turning of the top platter forces the 5 balls to rotate inside the race at the same speed as the platter. Because the outside race is locked to the housing plate by the horse shoe looking thing, it forces the inner race to spin a faster speed due to it's smaller diameter (Or whatever makes it happen?!) and because the inner race is hard mounted to the bottom bearing it spins faster than the top turning the big flywheel which must be about 5 kgs at least..
Nothing like a ding bat to explain how stuff works!
there is also a bearing under the chrome plate but I have been unable to remove this plate yet. I'm not sure if it should just pop out cause right now it's pretty happy being in there.
So any thoughts? when holding the whole thing in your hands it's a bit hard to get a guage just how smooth it all it.
I took it to a bearing place yesterday and the engineers said it was probably one of the best feeling bearings they had seen considering how old it is. They said to clean it up and coat it with sowing machine oil. do you thinks this is best. I think once its spinning with the massive flywheel and platter it could easily move through motor oil.
I also have some questions about the lower bearing and it's spiral groove in the shaft. I imagine this is to move up oil from a well. but the case does not have a sleeve lining with a tolerance small enough to make this effective. Any thought?
Thanks for your time and I hope you have found this interesting!.
Sorry to hijack this thread, I was hoping the admin would start this as a new thread as I was unable to submit a new thread because I am new here.. I will try to post this as a new thread with working links etc. Apologies.
Nothing stopping you from posting a new thread, just remember to click the "have you searched" in the upper left when prompted.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.