HELLO !
When I was young, my personal reference in audio was Altec Lansing all the pro serie because my dad was the director of RCA Victor in Quebec and I had many many raw driver at home especially in coaxial series duplex, etc....
With the Alnico magnet and very thin and stiff paper cone Altec speaker was :
Extremelly DYNAMIC
AMAZING PUNCHY MIDRANGE
and very detailed sound.
After all this time I lost to find a today's driver brand sound like Altec 604 or CD408 I request your help if anybody know a brand how sound the sames, please say to me 🙂
Thanks in advance to help me with my quest 🙂 !
nicK
When I was young, my personal reference in audio was Altec Lansing all the pro serie because my dad was the director of RCA Victor in Quebec and I had many many raw driver at home especially in coaxial series duplex, etc....
With the Alnico magnet and very thin and stiff paper cone Altec speaker was :
Extremelly DYNAMIC
AMAZING PUNCHY MIDRANGE
and very detailed sound.
After all this time I lost to find a today's driver brand sound like Altec 604 or CD408 I request your help if anybody know a brand how sound the sames, please say to me 🙂
Thanks in advance to help me with my quest 🙂 !
nicK
Last edited:
nickthevoice:
Great Plains Audio rebuilds all the old Altec drivers and also mfg. brand new drivers with the same spec. as the old drivers. You can buy 2 or 3 different updated versions of the 604 driver direct from them.
Great Plains Audio rebuilds all the old Altec drivers and also mfg. brand new drivers with the same spec. as the old drivers. You can buy 2 or 3 different updated versions of the 604 driver direct from them.
I have heard the Great Plains new drivers are as good or better than original.
I have original 515's horn loaded; great for tube amps as they are over damped, you don't need lots of feedback.
Phil
I have original 515's horn loaded; great for tube amps as they are over damped, you don't need lots of feedback.
Phil
Imo, drivers like the 604 have various nice aspects, but one may find that they are lacking in certain ways.
Given that many great recordings were mixed and monitored on 604s, you could argue that they will get you back the original "intent" of the recordings made with them.
If you have the $$, then why not own a pair? 😀
But there may be better loading methods than the old style badly ported enclosures.
Also I think that there are horn and other high-sensitivity systems today that provide equal "jump factor" and better fidelity and lower objective distortion.
Just my personal opinions.
_-_-bear
Given that many great recordings were mixed and monitored on 604s, you could argue that they will get you back the original "intent" of the recordings made with them.
If you have the $$, then why not own a pair? 😀
But there may be better loading methods than the old style badly ported enclosures.
Also I think that there are horn and other high-sensitivity systems today that provide equal "jump factor" and better fidelity and lower objective distortion.
Just my personal opinions.
_-_-bear
great plan audio is expensive to me.
I want to find a brand I could found in Canadian or USA raw driver dealer.
If anybody have another brand suggestion ?
thanks 🙂
nicK
I want to find a brand I could found in Canadian or USA raw driver dealer.
If anybody have another brand suggestion ?
thanks 🙂
nicK
The GPA drivers are expensive, but not unreasonable. Think about this:
in 1967 the Altec 416-A woofer sold for $63 US
in 2013 dollars that would be $470
The GPA 416-Alnico currently sells for $360 US. Expensive?
in 1967 the Altec 416-A woofer sold for $63 US
in 2013 dollars that would be $470
The GPA 416-Alnico currently sells for $360 US. Expensive?
nickthevoice,
Measurement and listening tests prove a significant increase in sound quality from modern horns like LeCleach, waveguides, and shallow controlled directivity horns. Modern compression drivers with plastic suspensions, or all plastic domes also show improvements from older all-metal dome_suspension Altecs. Todays plastic waveguides are also low cost.
NdFeB magnets can hold a BL field better than ALNICO, and are often selected for midrange speakers and compression drivers.
Measurement and listening tests prove a significant increase in sound quality from modern horns like LeCleach, waveguides, and shallow controlled directivity horns. Modern compression drivers with plastic suspensions, or all plastic domes also show improvements from older all-metal dome_suspension Altecs. Todays plastic waveguides are also low cost.
NdFeB magnets can hold a BL field better than ALNICO, and are often selected for midrange speakers and compression drivers.
Attachments
So how would for example the GPA 414-8B compare against the modern Beyma 12P80Nd in terms of character (tone color, presence, dynamics, slam etc)...?
Nickthevoice
Keep an eye on ebay, DIY classified. I use 2 Altec 515b's in a 75hz front loaded horn per channel and can tell you I have heard nothing better in the low midrange/upper bass as part of a 4 way horn system.
Keep an eye on ebay, DIY classified. I use 2 Altec 515b's in a 75hz front loaded horn per channel and can tell you I have heard nothing better in the low midrange/upper bass as part of a 4 way horn system.
Just looking at the Beyma's specs......... its lack of a front vent combined with a too high Fs and too low Vas makes for a poor match tonally and low level detail capability, so like comparing a hammer to a feather to me for a HIFI app; though for HT, prosound where finesse takes a 'backseat' to visceral performance [max presence, dynamics, slam, etc.], I'd opt for the Beyma.
GM
hottattoo.
I too have 515b's horn loaded go to 40hz; i would not change them for any system i have heard.
Excellent for tube amps {105Db} Se or PP; I use JBL compression drivers 2452 for mid-range and treble. The big advantage of the 515 is they are over-damped not the best for transistor amps, but perfect for Tubes.
Phil
I too have 515b's horn loaded go to 40hz; i would not change them for any system i have heard.
Excellent for tube amps {105Db} Se or PP; I use JBL compression drivers 2452 for mid-range and treble. The big advantage of the 515 is they are over-damped not the best for transistor amps, but perfect for Tubes.
Phil
multi:
Lucky us !!!!
Most people do not know the snap, speed, power of a good drum hit until you hear it on a good front loaded horn !! Even today, there is no modern driver equivalent for the altec 515b driver except the remake from Great Plains Audio.
Lucky us !!!!
Most people do not know the snap, speed, power of a good drum hit until you hear it on a good front loaded horn !! Even today, there is no modern driver equivalent for the altec 515b driver except the remake from Great Plains Audio.
For a midbass application (60-300 Hz) actively filtered and driven, the higher Fs and lower Qts of the 12P80Nd shouldn't be a disadvantage, should it? The front vent aspect is interesting though, could you elaborate on the benefit of this? It is my understanding also that the 414 has an underhung VC, is that correct?
I haven't heard the 12P80Nd myself but many who have, including members of this forum, praise its raw sound quality, sometimes used as high as up to 1200-1500 Hz. It is being described as being incredibly detailed and dynamic while at the same time having beautiful tone - very much the same attributes often ascribed to the 414 and other Altec woofers.... There's no denying that the 12P80Nd is more overdamped though so I'm guessing it would sound that way too compared to the 414.
I guess you could argue that goes for pop & rock and other modern music too. 😛
No, though the 414’s front vent limits it to a 1:1 CR in a compression horn, so will still probably be tonally different unless the Beyma’s Qts is raised to match the 414’s, ergo can use the same horn. The 414 will still need a larger rear chamber, though not sure if these will make any audible tonal difference in a comparison.
I’ve never given any thought or read why JBL [the man] chose to use front vents, though I imagine it’s due to wanting the AlNiCo magnet to be one piece.
Frankly, this BW horn would be wasted on either of these drivers unless two are used since there are many 15” optimized for this BW.
Yes, all the original Altec drivers are under hung, so Xmax is limited to a few mm at most, with the earliest ones being < 1 mm, so high efficiency was the driving force behind any driver, speaker design.
Judging by its specs, I’ve no doubt the Beyma is a fine performing driver, just don’t believe it would blend in well with a 414 in a HIFI app, especially at fractional power where these will mostly ‘live’.
Also, the 414’s break-up modes BW is more extended, so used at higher XO points it will tend to sound more ‘lush’/’rich’ unless dealt with in the XO design, which may audibly change it in comparison.
In short, the 414 was designed for wide BW, low power handling capability whereas the Beyma is designed for much higher power apps with all the performance pluses and minuses these imply.
No argument from me, I’ve never considered R&R, heavy metal, et al as HIFI, so while some speaker systems can play all genres of music well, not all genres play well through all HIFI speaker systems.
GM
I’ve never given any thought or read why JBL [the man] chose to use front vents, though I imagine it’s due to wanting the AlNiCo magnet to be one piece.
Frankly, this BW horn would be wasted on either of these drivers unless two are used since there are many 15” optimized for this BW.
Yes, all the original Altec drivers are under hung, so Xmax is limited to a few mm at most, with the earliest ones being < 1 mm, so high efficiency was the driving force behind any driver, speaker design.
Judging by its specs, I’ve no doubt the Beyma is a fine performing driver, just don’t believe it would blend in well with a 414 in a HIFI app, especially at fractional power where these will mostly ‘live’.
Also, the 414’s break-up modes BW is more extended, so used at higher XO points it will tend to sound more ‘lush’/’rich’ unless dealt with in the XO design, which may audibly change it in comparison.
In short, the 414 was designed for wide BW, low power handling capability whereas the Beyma is designed for much higher power apps with all the performance pluses and minuses these imply.
No argument from me, I’ve never considered R&R, heavy metal, et al as HIFI, so while some speaker systems can play all genres of music well, not all genres play well through all HIFI speaker systems.
GM
Would this speaker come close to the Altec 515?
ETONE
mm
380 ( 15 inch )
Front mount hole size
mm diameter
Long term power
Watts RMS
400
Program power
Watts RMS
800
Nominal impedance
Ohms
8 (also available in 4 and 16 Ohms)
Voice coil
75 mm (3.0 inch) dia, high temperature copper wire
Sensitivity
dB 1 Watt @ 1m
98.7
Thiele-Small parameters
Fo
27 Hz
BL
17.8 T.M
Qms
2.55
Qts
0.22
Vas
538 Litres 18.99929 cubic ft
Net weight
Kg
Altec 515LF
Thiele-Small Parameters:
Xmax (inch) 0.20
Re (ohms) 6.70
Vd (cu. in.) 23.00
Fs (Hz) 27.40
Vas (cu. ft.) 16.60
Ref. Eff (%) 6.70
Qts 0.255
Qms 11.63
Qes 0.261
ETONE
mm
380 ( 15 inch )
Front mount hole size
mm diameter
Long term power
Watts RMS
400
Program power
Watts RMS
800
Nominal impedance
Ohms
8 (also available in 4 and 16 Ohms)
Voice coil
75 mm (3.0 inch) dia, high temperature copper wire
Sensitivity
dB 1 Watt @ 1m
98.7
Thiele-Small parameters
(for 8 Ohm driver)
27 Hz
BL
17.8 T.M
Qms
2.55
Qts
0.22
Vas
538 Litres 18.99929 cubic ft
Net weight
Kg
Altec 515LF
Thiele-Small Parameters:
Xmax (inch) 0.20
Re (ohms) 6.70
Vd (cu. in.) 23.00
Fs (Hz) 27.40
Vas (cu. ft.) 16.60
Ref. Eff (%) 6.70
Qts 0.255
Qms 11.63
Qes 0.261
I think of this LF version being a modern 515E, i.e. optimized for reflex cabs, so odds are that if the specs match up reasonably close that they will be tonally close, though one would have to compare measured responses to be sure they have a 'close enough' break-up modes BW response where the 515's superior HF 'snap' and matching up to Altec's short horns resides.
To ~match or maybe even best, an original 515 or 515B will take GOTO or better woofers [Wolf Von Langa's?] AFAIK. Frankly, from the few measured specs/response plots I've seen, I'm not convinced that GPA could bring my mid '50s 515Bs back to OEM if re-coned [average of 4 = ~20 Hz Fs, 20 ft^3 Vas, 0.2 Qts].
GM
To ~match or maybe even best, an original 515 or 515B will take GOTO or better woofers [Wolf Von Langa's?] AFAIK. Frankly, from the few measured specs/response plots I've seen, I'm not convinced that GPA could bring my mid '50s 515Bs back to OEM if re-coned [average of 4 = ~20 Hz Fs, 20 ft^3 Vas, 0.2 Qts].
GM
- Status
- Not open for further replies.