Just checked the local wood supplier to get a refresh on prices. In decent plywood, I've got either the choice in between nicer exterior finishes (a/b with various exterior woods) or birch ply (b/bb, wbp). Price is about 35€ per meter square at 18 or 19mm.
The best mdf in my experience is the colored valchromat. 19mm is 28€ per meter square, so a bit cheaper indeed.
The truly expensive stuff : mdf sandwiched in thick veneer sheets (1mm or more). That's 50€ per meter square and more.
The best mdf in my experience is the colored valchromat. 19mm is 28€ per meter square, so a bit cheaper indeed.
The truly expensive stuff : mdf sandwiched in thick veneer sheets (1mm or more). That's 50€ per meter square and more.
The only one who should do more research is mainly you
I have these Prism System of B&W.
And I'm very sorry, now I'm at home and took these 15minutes of my Valuable Time, to open up that B&W Prism System Shelf Speakers.
And I have to say, you are right they do not use MDF, at least not high quality, the sides are made of the lowest Quality I ever saw. I built loudspeaker for almost 25 Years, and we used MDF, but not such cheap stuff as I can find in here. I got these Speakers quite a long time ago, over ten years, and they were EXPENSIVE for the SIZE they have, but the sound it's what count.
But I understand, one can not know everything, it's just impossible, even he or her might think that he or her knows everything..
It's like a glass filled up with water to the top, so it can not be filled more.. A glass filled only half or three quarter with water, still can take some more water..
Anyway, No Harm done, but usually I do my research before I post.
Check out the pics, if you need more just let me know..
BTW, Back in ASIA where I have lived almost half of my life I had some WILSON PYRAMID Speakers, Price was 2500USD, also these were made MFD but high quality.. My friend still has a pair, if you need evidence, then just ask, I'm happy to send in some pictures. Of course also these had other materials in them, but mainly MDF.
Enjoy Weekend
Regards
Chris Hess
I have these Prism System of B&W.
And I'm very sorry, now I'm at home and took these 15minutes of my Valuable Time, to open up that B&W Prism System Shelf Speakers.
And I have to say, you are right they do not use MDF, at least not high quality, the sides are made of the lowest Quality I ever saw. I built loudspeaker for almost 25 Years, and we used MDF, but not such cheap stuff as I can find in here. I got these Speakers quite a long time ago, over ten years, and they were EXPENSIVE for the SIZE they have, but the sound it's what count.
But I understand, one can not know everything, it's just impossible, even he or her might think that he or her knows everything..
It's like a glass filled up with water to the top, so it can not be filled more.. A glass filled only half or three quarter with water, still can take some more water..
Anyway, No Harm done, but usually I do my research before I post.
Check out the pics, if you need more just let me know..
BTW, Back in ASIA where I have lived almost half of my life I had some WILSON PYRAMID Speakers, Price was 2500USD, also these were made MFD but high quality.. My friend still has a pair, if you need evidence, then just ask, I'm happy to send in some pictures. Of course also these had other materials in them, but mainly MDF.
Enjoy Weekend
Regards
Chris Hess
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Do note that B&Ws best speakers are made with plywood.
The great number of MDF speakers is because it is CHEAP. The accounting deptament won out over the engineers, and the marketing deptartments convinced much of the world and many designers that MDF was good.
All materials resonate. MDF is heavy, not all that stiff, and tends to lower frequency, lower Q (potential) resonances, the broad Q means that lots of energy can get into the panel, is more likely to get moving, and is more audible when it does start moving. Higher mass pushes the (potential) resonance lower in frequency where it is more likely to get excited. When a speaker panel goes into full resonance it is as if it disappears.
Quality plywood is much stiffer, lighter, has higher Q resonances. This means that (potential) resonances are higher in frequency, higher in Q, and if well done much, much less likely to get excited. If a (potential) resnance never gets sufficient energy into it, it never gets excited enuff to move, and is as if there is no resonance.
MDF is cheap. That is why it is used. Cheap to buy, cheap to work, cheap to finish. Not as cheap to ship thou… so often the material thickness and proper bracing are skipped to keep wight down.
You often hear OB guys suggestting that ne of an OB’s assets is they do not sound “boxy”. I am convinced that is becasue there are so many bad MDF boxes out there. It is possiblt to build a decent MDF box, but it is a case of brute force vrs finesse and elegance.
dave
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Dense is not an advantage. A lighter material that is as stiff will work better.
dave
Russian too, we quit using the locally available BB for these reasons and switched to Murphy Ply which uses high quality Baltic cores and they add a maple face veneer on each side.
A step up from this quality of ply is stranded/fossilized bamboo plywood.
dave
Have just made some wardrobe doors. The handles were 800x55 rebates - no hardware.
Did the usual Googling before ordering material and Moisture Resistant MDF was the recommended readily available grade for best routing.
I can confirm that it does router better than standard MDF, producing smoother less fluffy edges. It just seems a much better bonded material.
This will be my future 'go to' grade for all MDF jobs unless very un-critical.
My own 2 penn'orth, I would suggest that while for large enclosures, Birch ply is likely to be the best material, for more modest cabinets the difference would be difficult to quantify. This assuming sound construction and bracing.
Did the usual Googling before ordering material and Moisture Resistant MDF was the recommended readily available grade for best routing.
I can confirm that it does router better than standard MDF, producing smoother less fluffy edges. It just seems a much better bonded material.
This will be my future 'go to' grade for all MDF jobs unless very un-critical.
My own 2 penn'orth, I would suggest that while for large enclosures, Birch ply is likely to be the best material, for more modest cabinets the difference would be difficult to quantify. This assuming sound construction and bracing.
B&W DM302, the last B&W speaker i owned. Quite good. A woodish shell clamped between 2 significant plastic moldings, the structure of the back panel with the argish pyramids is inheretly very stiff and the curved, engineered baffle is also solid. I expect one could replace the woodish bit with somethign superior and improve them further/ Cleaning up the XO also does not hurt.
dave
Don't laugh guys,
I'm making a monitor with 0.4" ply and soft/light one for the damping : poplar and eucalyptus : both have great damping behavior not being too stiff !
But 0.4" is a little too light... but certainly equal 3/4 mdf.
I'm making a monitor with 0.4" ply and soft/light one for the damping : poplar and eucalyptus : both have great damping behavior not being too stiff !
But 0.4" is a little too light... but certainly equal 3/4 mdf.
Until you opened them and saw the material you were happy with the sound quality and that is the point. Presumably you were also happy with the exterior finish as well.
Would they sound better made of ply? If not then the chosen material did its job. As they are shelf speakers therefore no behemoths the material is adequate. QED.
There is no universally accepted definition of "boxy" sound which begs the question, what have you convinced yourself of?
I'm Still happy with the sound quality and it's not the first time that I opened them.
Also, I don't mind if you want to use Plywood, your wish, but out there are people, who think differend. I'm one of them.
There are speakers cabinets made out of hard Plastic, or similar they also sound good. I know a guy back in Asia he made a cabinet out of concrete. =STONE
Another one used Foam to surround the voice coil for Low Frequency drivers.. sounded OK but max 5 Watts then the coil would burn because of no MAGNET .
If you use 19mm MDF the Real MDF and not that "loose material" and not similar to what is used in this B&W, where a plate of 4meter x 2meter wheights 50KG, then I can garantee you there is a big difference in reproducing the sound, and this is what is all about.at least for me. then also use Glue and not NAILS or screws if possible in MDF, sound Quality will with any nail less improve. this counts also for plywood and any other material. two many different materials in a Cabinet will falsify the sound reproduction. And that's a FACT.
And it is a big difference just to talk about something because someone has seen it in TV, or the newspaper or whatever, All speaker I mentioned above, I have used in my life, and not one was PLYWOOD. Present time I have about 10 different pairs of Speakers here at my home, all BRANDNAMES, not one is Plywood. So something must be very wrong if the big companies using MDF when plywood is that much better, as you think..
I just got a pair S&R speakers from Italy yesterday - Only 6 and 1 inch heavy, real wood all the way .. tested them for about 10Minutes, and will test them tomorrow again.
MDF has only one 1 Disadvantage, but exactly this disadvantage also is the case with Plywood, Wettness and water. With this i mean wet air, etc..I never heard a MDF speaker Vibrate, but I heard quite a few Plywood speakers Vibrate at low frequencies, this causing distortion in sound. Or may I'm just stupid, not to use Plywood.
It's the same with everything one likes this the other one that, there is no ultimate, which is good for all. So easy, and I think I did not complain, but rather showed a shortcoming of B&W in using low grade MDF and selling their speaker in the highprice segment. This is what is called Business. But I think one should not write, there are NO Wilson and NO B&W speaker with MDF, sorry completely wrong.
This is the main point.I can not tell if B&W uses Plywood for their Speaker Cabinets, and there for I do not Say they don't but they sure use MDF. What you think Plywood lovers, can you live with that?
I can.
Have a nice Weekend, all of you.
Greetings and Regards
Chris
Also, I don't mind if you want to use Plywood, your wish, but out there are people, who think differend. I'm one of them.
There are speakers cabinets made out of hard Plastic, or similar they also sound good. I know a guy back in Asia he made a cabinet out of concrete. =STONE
Another one used Foam to surround the voice coil for Low Frequency drivers.. sounded OK but max 5 Watts then the coil would burn because of no MAGNET .
If you use 19mm MDF the Real MDF and not that "loose material" and not similar to what is used in this B&W, where a plate of 4meter x 2meter wheights 50KG, then I can garantee you there is a big difference in reproducing the sound, and this is what is all about.at least for me. then also use Glue and not NAILS or screws if possible in MDF, sound Quality will with any nail less improve. this counts also for plywood and any other material. two many different materials in a Cabinet will falsify the sound reproduction. And that's a FACT.
And it is a big difference just to talk about something because someone has seen it in TV, or the newspaper or whatever, All speaker I mentioned above, I have used in my life, and not one was PLYWOOD. Present time I have about 10 different pairs of Speakers here at my home, all BRANDNAMES, not one is Plywood. So something must be very wrong if the big companies using MDF when plywood is that much better, as you think..
I just got a pair S&R speakers from Italy yesterday - Only 6 and 1 inch heavy, real wood all the way .. tested them for about 10Minutes, and will test them tomorrow again.
MDF has only one 1 Disadvantage, but exactly this disadvantage also is the case with Plywood, Wettness and water. With this i mean wet air, etc..I never heard a MDF speaker Vibrate, but I heard quite a few Plywood speakers Vibrate at low frequencies, this causing distortion in sound. Or may I'm just stupid, not to use Plywood.
It's the same with everything one likes this the other one that, there is no ultimate, which is good for all. So easy, and I think I did not complain, but rather showed a shortcoming of B&W in using low grade MDF and selling their speaker in the highprice segment. This is what is called Business. But I think one should not write, there are NO Wilson and NO B&W speaker with MDF, sorry completely wrong.
This is the main point.I can not tell if B&W uses Plywood for their Speaker Cabinets, and there for I do not Say they don't but they sure use MDF. What you think Plywood lovers, can you live with that?
I can.
Have a nice Weekend, all of you.
Greetings and Regards
Chris
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Boxy sound comes from bad soundstage of the AMPLIFIER. this is my opinion to that. Low grade Drivers with 80 DB SPL where high power amps chuck to deliver a decent sound.
But you might be right, it also can be from lousy produce Cabinets.
But you might be right, it also can be from lousy produce Cabinets.
There are no clear definitions of many of the words we use when trying to verbalize what we her..
dave
I prefer plywood because it's stiffer, stronger and lighter than MDF.
But the most important for a good cabinet is bracing and lots of bracing !
Working with MDF generates more dust than plywood, that dust is not healthy.
Always cut outside !
But the most important for a good cabinet is bracing and lots of bracing !
Working with MDF generates more dust than plywood, that dust is not healthy.
Always cut outside !
To me “boxy” comes from the word box. Often the box itself acting as a radiator.
A sound i have heard from quite a few speakers, was an issue caused by the sides too close to the back of the driver (or the back of the box too close), and an OB, made of (cheap) 32 mm plywood, and a 15” driver trying to reach too high into the midrange.
dave
A sound i have heard from quite a few speakers, was an issue caused by the sides too close to the back of the driver (or the back of the box too close), and an OB, made of (cheap) 32 mm plywood, and a 15” driver trying to reach too high into the midrange.
dave
Flat panels of any kind of material are an outdated idea anyways. The reason is that modern production techniques allow for compound curves that make optimum use of material strengths. Plastic materials are the logical choice.
Loudspeakers are the only rectangular pressure vessels I know, made out of wood to boot.
Loudspeakers are the only rectangular pressure vessels I know, made out of wood to boot.
Such material is ideal, If only it was easy for diy.
Howmuch would cost such a cabinet if one wanted to make one ?
3D printers are expensive for big pieces.
You need a company that can make you a mold and feel it... not cheap, well maybe in some countries but definitly not in western countries. Or... ?
Howmuch would cost such a cabinet if one wanted to make one ?
3D printers are expensive for big pieces.
You need a company that can make you a mold and feel it... not cheap, well maybe in some countries but definitly not in western countries. Or... ?