Visiting the 2017 Munich High End, I noticed that very few speakers use subwoofer drivers, and I'm wondering why.
What is the real difference between the definition of a woofer vs a subwoofer anyway? Maybe mainly Fs, linear excursion and sensitivity? But, take for example woofer 22W/8857T00 (Fs 23Hz, sensitivity 86dB, excursion 18mm) vs subwoofer 23W/4557T02 (Fs 21Hz, sensitivity 82dB, excursion 26mm).
Yes there are 4dB difference, not a deal breaker if using eg Hypex amps eg the latest Troels MUN17-3W design.
Cabinet size requirements don't really matter, as 3-way cabinets easily have up to 40L available for the bass driver.
Linear, low distortion frequency range considerations don't really matter, as typically bass units handle the 20-200Hz range - good woofers and good subwoofers are very good there even when using LR2
What am I missing, can anyone elaborate please?
Thanks.
What is the real difference between the definition of a woofer vs a subwoofer anyway? Maybe mainly Fs, linear excursion and sensitivity? But, take for example woofer 22W/8857T00 (Fs 23Hz, sensitivity 86dB, excursion 18mm) vs subwoofer 23W/4557T02 (Fs 21Hz, sensitivity 82dB, excursion 26mm).
Yes there are 4dB difference, not a deal breaker if using eg Hypex amps eg the latest Troels MUN17-3W design.
Cabinet size requirements don't really matter, as 3-way cabinets easily have up to 40L available for the bass driver.
Linear, low distortion frequency range considerations don't really matter, as typically bass units handle the 20-200Hz range - good woofers and good subwoofers are very good there even when using LR2
What am I missing, can anyone elaborate please?
Thanks.
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Well, short version: Woofers are optimized for mid bass for the most part, while subwoofers are optimized for the deep base. There are trade offs and it is hard to get one driver that will do both quite well.
Subwoofer drivers are generally less efficient. Therefore, if a designer opts for a subwoofer instead of a woofer, the maximum output of the system will be constrained by that choice.
This is why subwoofer plate amps tend to be dramatically more powerful than full range amps.
Of course, if your design is active, this is less of a constant.
This is why subwoofer plate amps tend to be dramatically more powerful than full range amps.
Of course, if your design is active, this is less of a constant.
Two great answers. 🙂
Personally, I think of the ability to play mid-bass as the main difference, but I like Patrick's answer about voltage sensitivity too.
Best,
E
Personally, I think of the ability to play mid-bass as the main difference, but I like Patrick's answer about voltage sensitivity too.
Best,
E
Example of a really good specialist "Sub" driver is something like the tried & true Aurasound NS 18 992 4A. 86 dB "efficiency" 400g moving mass 18 inch cone 20 Hz FS with an inch of one way X max 800 wrms power handling 68 pounds & $800 of low frequency yumminess. Compare that to a normal HQ woofer say
SB Acoustics SB42FHC75-6 15 in 93 dB efficient 160 g moving mass, 22.5 Hz FS & 300 wrms around $475 US add to this a decent plate amp the price doubles. 40 litre LOL! for bass size matters BIGTime. Triple that to get remotely close to real bass wth a lifelike sense of scale & drama. I haven't heard the Aurasound but have heard the SB in isobaric configuration as a sub and it is excellent it was a 140 litre TL with 500 watt plate. Good bass requires big enclosures and gets expensive real quick. I guess it's more marketable to sell a more compact speaker design. The sub(s) (Once you know what multiple subs can do you won't go back to singles) can then make the whole setup more flexible regarding placement in your average living environment. The lack of integrated sub fullrange loudspeakers is because of lack of consumer demand. Simples!
SB Acoustics SB42FHC75-6 15 in 93 dB efficient 160 g moving mass, 22.5 Hz FS & 300 wrms around $475 US add to this a decent plate amp the price doubles. 40 litre LOL! for bass size matters BIGTime. Triple that to get remotely close to real bass wth a lifelike sense of scale & drama. I haven't heard the Aurasound but have heard the SB in isobaric configuration as a sub and it is excellent it was a 140 litre TL with 500 watt plate. Good bass requires big enclosures and gets expensive real quick. I guess it's more marketable to sell a more compact speaker design. The sub(s) (Once you know what multiple subs can do you won't go back to singles) can then make the whole setup more flexible regarding placement in your average living environment. The lack of integrated sub fullrange loudspeakers is because of lack of consumer demand. Simples!
So basically its more expensive to add subwoofer to the speakers, and harder to get it done right with a woofer.
Look at the price tags on the speakers at the "high end" show, i dont think that price of development need to be the problem.
what a (bad) joke
Look at the price tags on the speakers at the "high end" show, i dont think that price of development need to be the problem.
what a (bad) joke
Thank you for all replies so far.
But my question was slightly different.
Given 3-way designs, where a woofer in the vast majority of cases is used to handle < 200Hz (not mid bass), why don't we see any subwoofer drivers in place of the woofer?
I'm talking about active designs, eg Troels MUN17-3W but there are many others that I've seen at the High End in Munich.
If I take one of those designs, and replace the woofer with a subwoofer without touching the cabinet, using EQ (which is already there given those are active speakers) I should be able to get deeper bass given the extra Xmax, or worst case just the same if the sensitivity difference is too much.
Why aren't subwoofers used in place of woofers, in those cases?
But my question was slightly different.
Given 3-way designs, where a woofer in the vast majority of cases is used to handle < 200Hz (not mid bass), why don't we see any subwoofer drivers in place of the woofer?
I'm talking about active designs, eg Troels MUN17-3W but there are many others that I've seen at the High End in Munich.
If I take one of those designs, and replace the woofer with a subwoofer without touching the cabinet, using EQ (which is already there given those are active speakers) I should be able to get deeper bass given the extra Xmax, or worst case just the same if the sensitivity difference is too much.
Why aren't subwoofers used in place of woofers, in those cases?
While the term woofer and subwoofer may be overlapping, and practically applies to almost the same raw drivers...I understand the distinction in the actual speaker arrangement itself.
If the driver is in the same enclosure as the midrange and tweeter, than its woofer. (Why would you call it "sub" woofer)
If the woofer driver is placed in its dedicated enclosure, separate from the main speakers, weather it's used with one summed signal, or as multiple, its a "subwoofer". Clearly designed to operate in the frequency range, where our ears are not able to discern the direction, say 20-120Hz (this sure will trigger questions, as how high can you go as to make subwoofer non-localizable), hence the "sub" range. Weather the driver itself is called woofer or subwoofer, does not matter, neither it's efficiency or other parameters, because it clearly has to run through the low pass filter, often actively with separate volume to match the main speakers.
If the driver is in the same enclosure as the midrange and tweeter, than its woofer. (Why would you call it "sub" woofer)
If the woofer driver is placed in its dedicated enclosure, separate from the main speakers, weather it's used with one summed signal, or as multiple, its a "subwoofer". Clearly designed to operate in the frequency range, where our ears are not able to discern the direction, say 20-120Hz (this sure will trigger questions, as how high can you go as to make subwoofer non-localizable), hence the "sub" range. Weather the driver itself is called woofer or subwoofer, does not matter, neither it's efficiency or other parameters, because it clearly has to run through the low pass filter, often actively with separate volume to match the main speakers.
Bad is only in the eye of the beholder. If you think the above is expensive hunt down some Pioneer TAD bass drivers Heard these & was some of the best bass I ever heard. Just make sure you are sitting down when you read their prices. Hey if you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen.
So, if there are no real technical reasons, is it just because a subwoofer with that large and ugly suspension is not "cool" or "high end" enough to be accepted by "audiophilies", who appreciate things eg AC cables made of filaments of Niobium-titanium cooled at -263°?
I was hoping that maybe someone involved or knowledgeable of the industry could provide some insights.
I was hoping that maybe someone involved or knowledgeable of the industry could provide some insights.
@ SunShade. The more mass in the cone the bigger magnetic motor & bigger current swinging capability you will require of the amp to control it. Lower mass is easier to control @ less cost.
Hi Sunshade,
I think there is a little bit of confusion.
I think you should know, there is no universally accepted difference in a driver for a "subwoofer" vs. a "woofer" though I expect a "subwoofer" to have a lower maximum usable f.
Whether a speaker maker claims to use a woofer or subwoofer in the same cabinet is really a matter of marketting hype.
The other usual definition is that a "subwoofer" is a separate enclosure, often with it's own crossover and amplifier. This can be tiny like in PC speaker kits, or enormous.
Best,
E
SunShade,
Combine answers 2 & 3 and you have your answer. Beyond that, the members are just trying to be helpful by reinforcing those points.
Combine answers 2 & 3 and you have your answer. Beyond that, the members are just trying to be helpful by reinforcing those points.
A Different View, Top Down
The primary difference between a Sub-Woofers and companion Satellite Units that contain a woofer, is the acoustical 'how and why' of their placement in the listening space.
• for the satellites, it is all about acoustical imaging, ambiance and coverage.
• for the sub-woofers, it is all about the room loading and room mode mitigation.
If you do an all-in-one unit design, you lose this degree of freedom in your overall system design.
WHG
The primary difference between a Sub-Woofers and companion Satellite Units that contain a woofer, is the acoustical 'how and why' of their placement in the listening space.
• for the satellites, it is all about acoustical imaging, ambiance and coverage.
• for the sub-woofers, it is all about the room loading and room mode mitigation.
If you do an all-in-one unit design, you lose this degree of freedom in your overall system design.
WHG
Seems like....
Woofers are carefully engineered into one particular full range speaker including attention to:
--square wave transients(delay, speed, xover, etc...)
--tone
--baffle step;
--quarter wavelength spacing rules(lobing);
Subwoofers are engineered for flexible deep bass production with different speakers and different rooms.
--optimized for 80Hz and below, with technology supporting selective placement and flexible equalization to control room bass modes
--critical for HT sales: Several small speakers + one subwoofer engineered into the THX and DOLBY multi-speaker standards: 5.1, 7.1
--Market adding generic subwoofer into any HT.
=================
1) Stereo bass down to 20Hz has been produced in low distortion, high SPL since 1982 on CDs, DVD-As, SACDs, and BluRay movies.
--Unlike when most bass was mixed to the middle for LP release, today many LPs are cut with stereo bass.
2) Most people with normal hearing can identify the difference between stereo vs. mono bass. Stereo bass has phase for location.
3) At frequencies below 60Hz most people with normal hearing cannot isolate the physical location of the woofer.
4) Not being able to locate the subwoofer is a good cost simplification, but summing low bass into mono degrades true stereo recordings.
Woofers are carefully engineered into one particular full range speaker including attention to:
--square wave transients(delay, speed, xover, etc...)
--tone
--baffle step;
--quarter wavelength spacing rules(lobing);
Subwoofers are engineered for flexible deep bass production with different speakers and different rooms.
--optimized for 80Hz and below, with technology supporting selective placement and flexible equalization to control room bass modes
--critical for HT sales: Several small speakers + one subwoofer engineered into the THX and DOLBY multi-speaker standards: 5.1, 7.1
--Market adding generic subwoofer into any HT.
=================
1) Stereo bass down to 20Hz has been produced in low distortion, high SPL since 1982 on CDs, DVD-As, SACDs, and BluRay movies.
--Unlike when most bass was mixed to the middle for LP release, today many LPs are cut with stereo bass.
2) Most people with normal hearing can identify the difference between stereo vs. mono bass. Stereo bass has phase for location.
3) At frequencies below 60Hz most people with normal hearing cannot isolate the physical location of the woofer.
4) Not being able to locate the subwoofer is a good cost simplification, but summing low bass into mono degrades true stereo recordings.
Don´t be silly, you HAVE been given Technical reasons.
What would you call having 4 to 8 dB less efficiency or needing 4X the enclosure volume? "Fashion?" .... a "subjective experience?" 😕
And knowledgeable/involved people wasted time answering you ...... but you choose to insult or despise them 🙄
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