everything started when i read that a woofer could beat another woofer costing about 20 times more
someone told me that an excellent midrange can be had from a driver costing 20 usd
you tend to take concepts to an extreme
of course i can't pretend to get high end performance for cheap
probably you have money to waste
not my case unfortunately
i am more than sure that very good sound can be obtained without breaking the bank
and this concepts seems to disturb you
instead it excites me deeply
To spend more to have less is reasonable?
someone told me that an excellent midrange can be had from a driver costing 20 usd
you tend to take concepts to an extreme
of course i can't pretend to get high end performance for cheap
probably you have money to waste
not my case unfortunately
i am more than sure that very good sound can be obtained without breaking the bank
and this concepts seems to disturb you
instead it excites me deeply
To spend more to have less is reasonable?
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^^ Well yeah there is always some quantity of new information each of us can sink in, so one step at a time 
Ginetto61, you can think about crossover points and driver models and prices, advertizements, its all part of the hobby in a way that main goal is to have fun and its stuff that feels interesting what draws us to it and so on.
But its important to realize these are kind of secondary things that have no relation to sound quality, by them selves. They are details of some random systems told by some other people with unknown circumstances and without system context. This easily leads to confusion. The sooner you step out from this state and look at the big picture, what you actually are doing, what you actually want from a system (good sound!), and figure out what is good sound to you and what makes it, you start getting towards it
well, I'd do what ever feels interesting and fun, like you seem to be doing. At the moment of frustration refer back to the idea, critically think what you are doing, to find new path forward. Does it matter what crosover topology is in use if the system is not capable of your good sound no matter what the topology is? in this sense, details are irrelevant until you have concept, whole system requirements set up, then its time to figure out details that go into it.
Keeping system passive and cabling simple and so on are realistic requirements from a system, good start. You value size and complexity more than sound quality at least in this respect. This doesn't mean soundquality will be poor, just that a trade-off is already taken and some path forward chosen, some options ruled out. Remember to occasionally look around not to paint yourself into a corner
Hope it helps!
Ginetto61, you can think about crossover points and driver models and prices, advertizements, its all part of the hobby in a way that main goal is to have fun and its stuff that feels interesting what draws us to it and so on.
But its important to realize these are kind of secondary things that have no relation to sound quality, by them selves. They are details of some random systems told by some other people with unknown circumstances and without system context. This easily leads to confusion. The sooner you step out from this state and look at the big picture, what you actually are doing, what you actually want from a system (good sound!), and figure out what is good sound to you and what makes it, you start getting towards it
well, I'd do what ever feels interesting and fun, like you seem to be doing. At the moment of frustration refer back to the idea, critically think what you are doing, to find new path forward. Does it matter what crosover topology is in use if the system is not capable of your good sound no matter what the topology is?
in this sense, details are irrelevant until you have concept, whole system requirements set up, then its time to figure out details that go into it.Keeping system passive and cabling simple and so on are realistic requirements from a system, good start. You value size and complexity more than sound quality at least in this respect. This doesn't mean soundquality will be poor, just that a trade-off is already taken and some path forward chosen, some options ruled out. Remember to occasionally look around not to paint yourself into a corner
Hope it helps!
Hi yes of course it helps and thank you for that
Maybe i am always looking for shortcuts Because I am sure there are
Just to make an example
I have two pairs of Tannoy dc 8 inches that i quite like One pair is in dc100 speakers
The cabinet is 1/2" fiberboard = obscene
I have other very good cabinets similar volume with poor drivers
So the idea is to swap parts
Then i could bolt on the back the plate amps taken from other speakers and make a pair of actives that i am sure will be so much better than the original passive speakers that it's hard to explain
I think it's weird but maybe just a different way to see at diy
Take the good and discharge the bad
Mix and match
There is a reason why i usually post in the lounge or in everything else forums
Of course i am very interested in advice from experts
Maybe i am always looking for shortcuts Because I am sure there are
Just to make an example
I have two pairs of Tannoy dc 8 inches that i quite like One pair is in dc100 speakers
The cabinet is 1/2" fiberboard = obscene
I have other very good cabinets similar volume with poor drivers
So the idea is to swap parts
Then i could bolt on the back the plate amps taken from other speakers and make a pair of actives that i am sure will be so much better than the original passive speakers that it's hard to explain
I think it's weird but maybe just a different way to see at diy
Take the good and discharge the bad
Mix and match
There is a reason why i usually post in the lounge or in everything else forums
Of course i am very interested in advice from experts
You can take apart a quality product and make a better speaker than TANNOY did from the parts. While you mix in parts you found in the trash can? Right?
You can't even build a cabinet from wood, as you need someone who does that for you, right?
So why are you so sure you are a better engineer than the guys at TANNOY? Maybe tell the company and they will replace these "idiots" and give you a job instead? So you have some money to spent, in the future?
PS 1/2" fiber board is not the worst to build a speaker. It is in the "how you do it" that makes it good or bad. Quite some British speaker have thin walled cabinets, they are build for a purpose. Sure, you don't understand that.
You can't even build a cabinet from wood, as you need someone who does that for you, right?
So why are you so sure you are a better engineer than the guys at TANNOY? Maybe tell the company and they will replace these "idiots" and give you a job instead? So you have some money to spent, in the future?
PS 1/2" fiber board is not the worst to build a speaker. It is in the "how you do it" that makes it good or bad. Quite some British speaker have thin walled cabinets, they are build for a purpose. Sure, you don't understand that.
I understand that cheap speakers are compromised
For instance a same exact driver is used in the dtm8 intended as pro monitor in a much better cabinet at higher price of course
Speaking of Crossovers is not unusual that guys here ditch the stock ones and end with better results
Are they better than Tannoy designers? Who knows
Of course half inch fiberboard is much better than cardboard I guess
All those silly people who use 1 or more inch mdf extensively braced must be crazy
And i don't look in the garbage bin but rather into the second hand market
People are never happy and sell very good things almost new at one third of the price
Usually it's because of the rooms They listen in a treated room and they buy
Then at home the result is worse and they put the blame on speakers
I have a question Are you a pro or an amateur? That makes a big difference
A pro has always to sell something. Just to know
For instance a same exact driver is used in the dtm8 intended as pro monitor in a much better cabinet at higher price of course
Speaking of Crossovers is not unusual that guys here ditch the stock ones and end with better results
Are they better than Tannoy designers? Who knows
Of course half inch fiberboard is much better than cardboard I guess
All those silly people who use 1 or more inch mdf extensively braced must be crazy
And i don't look in the garbage bin but rather into the second hand market
People are never happy and sell very good things almost new at one third of the price
Usually it's because of the rooms They listen in a treated room and they buy
Then at home the result is worse and they put the blame on speakers
I have a question Are you a pro or an amateur? That makes a big difference
A pro has always to sell something. Just to know
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I'll give you my take on the active DSP vs passive argument.
Regarding the active DSP vs passive xover comparison, either can sound VERY good if done correctly with high quality parts and thoughtful implementation of components.
A DSP active based setup needs first and foremost very good high sample rate AD/DA converters with a low jitter, high precision master clock, input receiver and a very capable CPU with a filtering scheme generating minimal pre-ringing. Its not cheap and requires multiple amps, so it isn't as budget oriented if you're trying to pull it off in a high end way. The core benefit of this is going into the DSP directly with a PCM or DSD signal and avoiding an additional AD conversion step. Such a setup can sound as best as it gets in every sense. HOWEVER - If you listen to vinyl or other analog sources (like me), you'll be seeking to avoid any digital conversion steps and that will really ruin it for you as such a person.
There is an alternative to DSP, which isn't as flexible and can cost even more to do an all active system. Analog active crossovers do work very well if they're of high quality and low noise design. Don't expect doing any time delay or sharp slopes with this topology and a broad knowledge of audio circuit design is required to shape the driver responses as needed when dealing with difficult FR curves or sharp breakup peaks in your drivers. Noise can also be a huge problem with high efficiency horn drivers and every added stage of active filtering adds noise, being very noticeable ie in a 110 dB/W compression driver. Gain structure is paramount here as well as ultra low noise active filter stages. No easy task, but when done well it can be heavenly (my preference for an active system).
A passive system has the tremendous advantage of no active components in the signal path, so there's no added noise, hiss or hum. The drawbacks can be massive, as inductors add distortion depending on what types are used. I avoid anything other than air core coils, which can cost alot of money if large value, low DCR types are needed for low crossover points, especially when alot of BSC is needed. The least evil type of.cored inductors have large laminated steel cores with thick windings. Avoid ferrite and sintered core coils like the plague - they sound GOD AWFUL when they saturate. As far as capacitors concern, choose your favorite brand of polypropylene model and carry on. Avoid electrolytics when ever possible unless large values are needed. In that case go with at a minimum with Bennic, Munford or ERO bipolar electrolytics with a 100V rating. If the cap is in series with a bass/midrange driver, bypass with a polyprop cap of a minimum 10% value of the electrolytic cap. 20% would be better. Use quality non inductive resistors wherever needed. I try to use metal film in series with the HF driver, as it tends to sound more open up top. Don't buy into the fancy, high dollar oil filled silver foil caps, unless you have a.cost no object HF.driver that will benefit from the extra fraction of resolution. In 99.9% of cases.you won't be able to tell the difference between a $100 oil filled silver.foil cap and a cheap $5 Solen poly cap. Spend the money on the inductors and drivers. There's alot of satisfaction in building a passive xover system, but it requires alot of careful planning and engineering which most people don't want to or can't pull off. Careful driver choice is essential here and if its pulled off correctly, it can sound spectacular, especially with the correct amplification.
Regarding the active DSP vs passive xover comparison, either can sound VERY good if done correctly with high quality parts and thoughtful implementation of components.
A DSP active based setup needs first and foremost very good high sample rate AD/DA converters with a low jitter, high precision master clock, input receiver and a very capable CPU with a filtering scheme generating minimal pre-ringing. Its not cheap and requires multiple amps, so it isn't as budget oriented if you're trying to pull it off in a high end way. The core benefit of this is going into the DSP directly with a PCM or DSD signal and avoiding an additional AD conversion step. Such a setup can sound as best as it gets in every sense. HOWEVER - If you listen to vinyl or other analog sources (like me), you'll be seeking to avoid any digital conversion steps and that will really ruin it for you as such a person.
There is an alternative to DSP, which isn't as flexible and can cost even more to do an all active system. Analog active crossovers do work very well if they're of high quality and low noise design. Don't expect doing any time delay or sharp slopes with this topology and a broad knowledge of audio circuit design is required to shape the driver responses as needed when dealing with difficult FR curves or sharp breakup peaks in your drivers. Noise can also be a huge problem with high efficiency horn drivers and every added stage of active filtering adds noise, being very noticeable ie in a 110 dB/W compression driver. Gain structure is paramount here as well as ultra low noise active filter stages. No easy task, but when done well it can be heavenly (my preference for an active system).
A passive system has the tremendous advantage of no active components in the signal path, so there's no added noise, hiss or hum. The drawbacks can be massive, as inductors add distortion depending on what types are used. I avoid anything other than air core coils, which can cost alot of money if large value, low DCR types are needed for low crossover points, especially when alot of BSC is needed. The least evil type of.cored inductors have large laminated steel cores with thick windings. Avoid ferrite and sintered core coils like the plague - they sound GOD AWFUL when they saturate. As far as capacitors concern, choose your favorite brand of polypropylene model and carry on. Avoid electrolytics when ever possible unless large values are needed. In that case go with at a minimum with Bennic, Munford or ERO bipolar electrolytics with a 100V rating. If the cap is in series with a bass/midrange driver, bypass with a polyprop cap of a minimum 10% value of the electrolytic cap. 20% would be better. Use quality non inductive resistors wherever needed. I try to use metal film in series with the HF driver, as it tends to sound more open up top. Don't buy into the fancy, high dollar oil filled silver foil caps, unless you have a.cost no object HF.driver that will benefit from the extra fraction of resolution. In 99.9% of cases.you won't be able to tell the difference between a $100 oil filled silver.foil cap and a cheap $5 Solen poly cap. Spend the money on the inductors and drivers. There's alot of satisfaction in building a passive xover system, but it requires alot of careful planning and engineering which most people don't want to or can't pull off. Careful driver choice is essential here and if its pulled off correctly, it can sound spectacular, especially with the correct amplification.
If you listen to pure digital sources, it can make sense to go active dsp. I don't like the artifacts it can add. I still listen to CDs and can appreciate being able to dial back the often harsh top end. Otherwise I prefer a pure analog signal chain that doesn't affect tonal balance. The purists would agree here, but you need neutral source components and top notch amplification. DSP does make it easy to adjust on the fly, but it.just adds too much unwanted stuff for my tastes when listening to pure analog sources.
Hi thank you so much for the very kind and valuable advice
There are some very important statements that i will keep in mind
I think i will pass on the digital approach
One question on inductors
The laminated steel core ones look like EI transformer i guess
What's the price differential with air core ones for a same value?
More or less i mean
Coils… well, that depends.
I separate:
Active speakers are for guys who dont know how to do passives
Regards J-C
I separate:
- for 2-Way i use Aircore whenever possible
- 3-Ways get Air for Midrange section. Most applications want/allow a R in Series to to the Highpass-Coil to GND, so a thin wire (1.0mm) Aircoil is almost possible.
- 3-Way Bass section I like to use I-Core coils, never had a Problem and quite low-R. Little distortion is ways below speaker distortion below 2-300Hz.
- Impedance corretion circuits usually draw low current and resonance-peak corrections using 10-27mH can be Core-types with thin wire.
Active speakers are for guys who dont know how to do passives
Regards J-C
This is the ONLY CORED type of inductor I will use. It's harmonic distortion profile is very ear pleasing and it saturates a bit more gracefully than most ferrite or sintered/powdered metal core types.
Being a huge proponent of passive crossover designs, using them whenever I can, I still believe active and DSP based stuff has its place, specifically for LF augmentation where room eq is needed to fix low end problems found in just about every subwoofer application. I will occasionally use very high end DSP plate amps for subs, since they will allow for extensive parametric EQ control of the low end to adapt to the room and continuous phase to gel with most any LF limited speakers. The brands I like are Hypex and Speaker Power. I stay away from the cheap chi-fi stuff.
Being a huge proponent of passive crossover designs, using them whenever I can, I still believe active and DSP based stuff has its place, specifically for LF augmentation where room eq is needed to fix low end problems found in just about every subwoofer application. I will occasionally use very high end DSP plate amps for subs, since they will allow for extensive parametric EQ control of the low end to adapt to the room and continuous phase to gel with most any LF limited speakers. The brands I like are Hypex and Speaker Power. I stay away from the cheap chi-fi stuff.
Attachments
I've started winding my own inductors to get those weird values needing thin air cored windings and specific,.very large steel laminate cores for large 3 way LP sections needing alot of BSC. I used to buy the next largest value and unwind them to sneak up on the desired value, but that is too expensive most of the time - I can usually buy a whole 5 pound spool of magnet wire for the same price 2 large inductors cost to purchase pre made. Its worth doing yourself if you need specific values and want to save a bit of money.
+1, I think btw I am going exactly that way for my next DIY. Hypex being too much expensive I will follow the TDA or Ice-Power modules for the woofer.
Which is also possible when you have a very good and powerfull enough amp with low impedance is to EQ in the digital domain before the dac if the passive filter is already in lieu. Whic permit a good DAC... Of course special care for the digital front end (before the DAC) where the EQ id performed (FIR)
Which is also possible when you have a very good and powerfull enough amp with low impedance is to EQ in the digital domain before the dac if the passive filter is already in lieu. Whic permit a good DAC... Of course special care for the digital front end (before the DAC) where the EQ id performed (FIR)
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Hi thank you very muchCoils… well, that depends.
I separate:
- for 2-Way i use Aircore whenever possible
- 3-Ways get Air for Midrange section. Most applications want/allow a R in Series to to the Highpass-Coil to GND, so a thin wire (1.0mm) Aircoil is almost possible.
- 3-Way Bass section I like to use I-Core coils, never had a Problem and quite low-R. Little distortion is ways below speaker distortion below 2-300Hz.
- Impedance corretion circuits usually draw low current and resonance-peak corrections using 10-27mH can be Core-types with thin wire.
Active speakers are for guys who dont know how to do passives
Regards J-C
I guess you're talking about the only one in series with the woofer
Speaking instead of core saturation over sizing an iron core would not make the issue less dramatic like someone has pointed out?
I have been purchasing 4 x Peereles Vifa NE-123w-08 4" mids at Compacbel Belgium but the shop alerted me 5 days later than the drivers are non longer avialable at its partner stock... I wait the monney back but I am disgusted !
Ah, so I come back in the standalone 5" to 6.5" mid + tweeter choice race ! So be carefull with Compacbel, better to check ith them by mail before purchasing as they do not stock.
Ah, so I come back in the standalone 5" to 6.5" mid + tweeter choice race ! So be carefull with Compacbel, better to check ith them by mail before purchasing as they do not stock.
I used this peerless with great results as mtm with hiquphon tweeter
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-TPY05W04O0089-5-1-4-Heritage-Family-Woofer-4-Ohm-264-1634
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-TPY05W04O0089-5-1-4-Heritage-Family-Woofer-4-Ohm-264-1634