My enclosures indeed are little over 200L. The efficiency indeed goes up compared to smaller enclosures but according to WinISD maximum power handling drops rapidly under 40Hz. If you want to run them full power down to 15Hz the enclosure shouldn't be larger than 100L.
Punchy depends on a lot of things but yes they are very capable
I'd prefer not to go full power on them actually. I was planning to model with them with 4-500w being enough for max excursion down at 10-20hz.
Trying to decide if I need 4 or 8, my room volume is quite large at 140m3.
@tubelectron. How far can the upper cutoff be pushed? I'd imagine you'd get cavity resonances fairly early with that size of slot. I've considered building a slob setup with 24 x 8" drivers but want to use them as far up as I can for punchier bass. I'm sure there's a way to sim a ripole or slob to see where the first resonance occurs. I'm rather new to "box-less" bass and it intrigues me how good it can sound vs a sealed design. Ported subs just don't sound accurate to me, but sealed also has its problems, so this type of design here looks attractive to me.
Do you have any measurements of your ripole setup?
Do you have any measurements of your ripole setup?
Oh no : mine is a 2x12", using BEYMA 12BR70 speakers.
A friend of mine has built a 2x18" ripole, based on the more classic design with parallel faces speakers, and no embarked sub module nor slanted internal panels :
The Ripole - invented by Mr Axel Ridtahler, a German Audio Engineer - is very interesting by the fact that it can provide deep, natural, floating infra bass extension. The impulsional response is excellent and well-damped, without boxy / boomy tones, and all this in a very compact format, without servo or active correction.
As a side note, the Ripole is the perfect infra-bass addition for panel/flat speakers like Martin-Logan or Magnepan (below). We know that marrying a bass bin with flat speakers is problematic : I experienced this... The Ripole is the ultimate weapon here - at least for me !
Of course, the Ripole has some inconveniences : the efficiency is quite low, so you need large Xmax speakers to allow power. The placement can't be against a wall or in a corner : it must be placed centered between the two speakers at some distance from the wall to allow the back ports to play their role.
For music playing, the Ripole is an excellent alternative for pure, extended infra-bass in a compact size - assuming you can place it as required (above).
For Home-Theater, the requirements are different IMHO, notably in power handling and loudness over the bass quality, and I am not sure that a Ripole is the best choice, then...
That said, I have no experience about Home-Theater... Only Music.
T
@profiguy : by my personal experience, that is to say :
- using the Ripole as an infra-bass extension occuring below the natural cut-off of my speakers.
Then the frequency cut-off is to be set between 40 to 60Hz, with a 12 or 24dB/Oct slope. In this setting range, the Ripole operates satisfactorily.
Now - and unlike me - if you cut suitably (by an additional high-pass crossover) your speakers, then you can possibly reach FC = 80Hz, but I personally would not go over - below why :
The Ripole cavities show a resonance located between 200 and 400Hz usually, depending on the geometry and the size of the construction. Indeed, you must stay way below this resonance, otherwise you will obviously obtain an unwanted, muddy, focused high-bass sound and loose the Ripole advantage : that famous floating, deep, enveloping but unobtrusive infra-bass, that other principles of subs provide with great difficulty...
You can have a look to my little, non-business website, for more construction details :
https://guilhemamplification.jimdofree.com/hi-fi-other-projects/
Here are the dimensions of my 2x12" Omega Ripole - a variant on the principle that I devised for integrating a sub module in it. Not sure that all the dimensions are perfectly exact, sorry, but at least, you've got the picture !
T
I appreciate the info! I'd only consider at least 2 subs and don't really like "mono" bass sources, meaning at least 2 acoustic sources of low end. Obviously you'll always have mono bass with vinyl, which leads me to the next question (concern) regarding a subsonic filter. I'm not a fan of cutting the low end unless it wont affect 15 - 20 hz and above. I cant imagine a ripole sub of your size shown here being able to load the drivers under 30 hz and be unphased by infrasonic noise ie. tone arm resonance ~ 8 to 9 hz.
Question about measurement method: looking at say 10 Hz, is the FR showing the output which is at 10 Hz or is the curve at 10 Hz including output at 20, 40 etc???
No question in my mind or in the contents of the replies preceding, that a 32 Hz organ note has substantial output at 64 Hz. And the 64 Hz output is far more of the sound we experience.
@profiguy : my friend built a pair of 2x18" Ripoles... Just like your idea. He has the room to do so, unlike me !
Unfortunately, I can't tell about the turntable arm resonance and the Ripole, because I have no pertinent experience in that field. I do have a turntable (TECHNICS SL-1200G) but my listening levels are moderated, so the influence between Ripole and arm resonance is irrelevant, moreover if I consider that my main menace is much more the "flex" floor of my little auditorium !
That said, Axel Ridtahler mentions in his Ripole description that the acoustic pressure diagram is a 90° pattern (2x45° from axis) due to the interaction between front and back openings. He states that a turntable placed at left of right of the Ripole will then be less influenced by the infra-bass, due to that peculiar radiation pattern. I think that it is described in one of those articles :
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/ridtahler_en.htm
https://patents.google.com/patent/DE19830947C2/en
T
I'm surprised no one has done the obvious to answer the OP ... measure some movie soundtracks with Audacity or other good audio analyser software to see what LFs are in them. You only have to analyse the 'kaboom' and 'dinosaur footprint' parts.
In da previous century, I kept a list of CD and record tracks with significant musical LF. I was also a DBLT guru in my previous life so have a good idea of what extension is required for music
I designed the speaker system for the Bradford Computer Organ This was in 90 ltr boxes .. one for 32Hz ^ above, and the other for 16 - 32Hz. You used as many as required for the church / cathedral. The biggest installation was in Worcester cathedral. During an organ recital, a 1 ton stone block fell from the ceiling .. fortunately in the nave, not the choir where the audience was sitting.
Half the power and speakers was dedicated to that last octave. The designer of the organ complained that many small churches opted for 32' (16Hz) stops which were completely inappropriate in their installation.
For music, the speaker which performed best in some 2 decades of DBLTs was a 5ltr box with about 60Hz extension. VERY FEW listeners, only some recording engineers, actually realised it had almost no deep LF. EVERYONE comments on how musical, tuneful bla bla the bass was.
Above 30 ltrs, I like to design for 40Hz extension. ie E on a bass so does all modern music. Going to 27Hz allows Bosendorfers to be distinguished from Steinways but going from 40 Hz to 27 Hz extension, costs a LOT in sound quality unless you use a separate sub
Dunno how this applies to HT but I would suggest having STEREO Subs with proper electronic crossovers below 50Hz and NOT using the Mono LFE channel especially if you also want Musical performance on stuff like organs or pianos
If you just want to rattle your windows/cutlery, have your ceiling fall down etc ... the film Earthquake IIRC used Cervin Vega ported subs tuned to 60 (50 in Europe) Hz and just had a relay put mains through them at the correct moment
In da previous century, I kept a list of CD and record tracks with significant musical LF. I was also a DBLT guru in my previous life so have a good idea of what extension is required for music
I designed the speaker system for the Bradford Computer Organ This was in 90 ltr boxes .. one for 32Hz ^ above, and the other for 16 - 32Hz. You used as many as required for the church / cathedral. The biggest installation was in Worcester cathedral. During an organ recital, a 1 ton stone block fell from the ceiling .. fortunately in the nave, not the choir where the audience was sitting.
Half the power and speakers was dedicated to that last octave. The designer of the organ complained that many small churches opted for 32' (16Hz) stops which were completely inappropriate in their installation.
For music, the speaker which performed best in some 2 decades of DBLTs was a 5ltr box with about 60Hz extension. VERY FEW listeners, only some recording engineers, actually realised it had almost no deep LF. EVERYONE comments on how musical, tuneful bla bla the bass was.
Above 30 ltrs, I like to design for 40Hz extension. ie E on a bass so does all modern music. Going to 27Hz allows Bosendorfers to be distinguished from Steinways but going from 40 Hz to 27 Hz extension, costs a LOT in sound quality unless you use a separate sub
Dunno how this applies to HT but I would suggest having STEREO Subs with proper electronic crossovers below 50Hz and NOT using the Mono LFE channel especially if you also want Musical performance on stuff like organs or pianos
If you just want to rattle your windows/cutlery, have your ceiling fall down etc ... the film Earthquake IIRC used Cervin Vega ported subs tuned to 60 (50 in Europe) Hz and just had a relay put mains through them at the correct moment
@kgrlee I understand your point. For inexperienced listeners and "bassheads" that only care about quantity over quality, its not that important to go past 30 hz or so, which is being generous in many regards. I'd personally have quality over quantity any day, but I'm not a layman and I can tell the difference.
Yes, there are people who call themselves experts and don't know the difference between real low end extension and pseudo-bass (when your brain fills in the higher harmonics to perceive the fundamental notes missing from the recording). This is the case with most electric basses, which have a louder 2nd harmonic than the fundamental notes themselves.
I've grown up around unamplified live concert piano and orchestral music. I can tell the difference between brands and types of pianos. You need accurate, linear low end to reproduce piano music correctly anf faithfully. Its very hard to get right. Trust me, you'll know when the first bottom octave (16 - 32hz) is missing when its been high passed in the recording. That leading edge "thud" you get on the attack is important to preserve and it needs to be timed correctly (proper phase relationship). HP filters introduce phase errors which ruin the attack on ALL the notes.
Similarly is the case with large percussive instruments and even xylophones. If you remove the fundamental attack of the notes, they become washed out and less defined. The brain can tell if its being short changed.
As far as my qualifications to say all this, I'm a recording engineer by trade. When digital audio came along, it was considered superior to analog in terms of low end capability, but most A-D conversion had substantial low end cut applied to it, making it sound worse than the best analog technology available at the time. Im perfectly ok doing without anything under 10 hz, but I don't want it removed at EVERY STAGE of the signal chain, which adds up in total phase error in the end. The solution is to cut it only once at the source input and not in every stage of processing or mixing. Thats where most problems start.
Finally, you can't do accurate bass with ported enclosures. They create too much phase and timing error. Only sealed or infinite baffles can do accurate bass. Every other method introduces non linearities and distortion.
HT subs can sound good (suitable for music) if implemented correctly. It doesn't have to just be all kaboom and noise. The problem is most people don't care enough or know enough to get it dialed in correctly. For the rest of us who do know how it needs to be done, its a nightmare to get it right.
You have to be careful when labeling everyone as having the same impared level of perception as to what is accurate and musical when it comes to ultra low end. A good system can convey 15 to 30 hz correctly without sounding bloated or muddled. Its usually the recording that introduces infrasonic noise which is invasive to the actual music. A really good recording done on higher end equipment can sound as effortless as a butterfly blown around in a hurricane while conveying every little nuance in the rest of the audio spectrum. Not all of us are numb idiots who can't perceive what we hear correctly. Psychoacoustics is a complicated field of study. You can lump everyone together and treat them as sheep if you wish, but there are quite a few of us black sheep who can tell the difference between noise and the actual music.
As far as those fake dinosaur sounds fabricated by Hollywood foley effects artists, they're just a bunch of artificial noises stuck together from samples. They don't have any relevance to accurate sounds. You can analyze them all you want. They're simply fake. I could care less how much infrasonic noise they contain. Those sounds are designed to sound inpactful with most HT setups. Not all HTs have subs which go down really low and can put out a ton of acoustical power in the 10s and 20s hz range. The sounds are mixed as a compromise to sound impactful on smaller subs as well, so you'll see alot of 50 - 60 hz junk and less of the ultra low stuff.
Yes, there are people who call themselves experts and don't know the difference between real low end extension and pseudo-bass (when your brain fills in the higher harmonics to perceive the fundamental notes missing from the recording). This is the case with most electric basses, which have a louder 2nd harmonic than the fundamental notes themselves.
I've grown up around unamplified live concert piano and orchestral music. I can tell the difference between brands and types of pianos. You need accurate, linear low end to reproduce piano music correctly anf faithfully. Its very hard to get right. Trust me, you'll know when the first bottom octave (16 - 32hz) is missing when its been high passed in the recording. That leading edge "thud" you get on the attack is important to preserve and it needs to be timed correctly (proper phase relationship). HP filters introduce phase errors which ruin the attack on ALL the notes.
Similarly is the case with large percussive instruments and even xylophones. If you remove the fundamental attack of the notes, they become washed out and less defined. The brain can tell if its being short changed.
As far as my qualifications to say all this, I'm a recording engineer by trade. When digital audio came along, it was considered superior to analog in terms of low end capability, but most A-D conversion had substantial low end cut applied to it, making it sound worse than the best analog technology available at the time. Im perfectly ok doing without anything under 10 hz, but I don't want it removed at EVERY STAGE of the signal chain, which adds up in total phase error in the end. The solution is to cut it only once at the source input and not in every stage of processing or mixing. Thats where most problems start.
Finally, you can't do accurate bass with ported enclosures. They create too much phase and timing error. Only sealed or infinite baffles can do accurate bass. Every other method introduces non linearities and distortion.
HT subs can sound good (suitable for music) if implemented correctly. It doesn't have to just be all kaboom and noise. The problem is most people don't care enough or know enough to get it dialed in correctly. For the rest of us who do know how it needs to be done, its a nightmare to get it right.
You have to be careful when labeling everyone as having the same impared level of perception as to what is accurate and musical when it comes to ultra low end. A good system can convey 15 to 30 hz correctly without sounding bloated or muddled. Its usually the recording that introduces infrasonic noise which is invasive to the actual music. A really good recording done on higher end equipment can sound as effortless as a butterfly blown around in a hurricane while conveying every little nuance in the rest of the audio spectrum. Not all of us are numb idiots who can't perceive what we hear correctly. Psychoacoustics is a complicated field of study. You can lump everyone together and treat them as sheep if you wish, but there are quite a few of us black sheep who can tell the difference between noise and the actual music.
As far as those fake dinosaur sounds fabricated by Hollywood foley effects artists, they're just a bunch of artificial noises stuck together from samples. They don't have any relevance to accurate sounds. You can analyze them all you want. They're simply fake. I could care less how much infrasonic noise they contain. Those sounds are designed to sound inpactful with most HT setups. Not all HTs have subs which go down really low and can put out a ton of acoustical power in the 10s and 20s hz range. The sounds are mixed as a compromise to sound impactful on smaller subs as well, so you'll see alot of 50 - 60 hz junk and less of the ultra low stuff.
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@profiguy @kgrlee thanks very much for the insightful contributions.
My goal as a hobbyist was and still is to get evenly distributed and good quality bass for movies and stereo with believable LFE extension in my 48m²/120m³ living room without destroying the furnishing/interior (= reduced audiophile footprint).
So over the years I did this (together with my subjective scores):
BTW I didn't know that vinyl had mono bass but when you look at the mechanical properties of the pick-up/needle it's very understandable.
My goal as a hobbyist was and still is to get evenly distributed and good quality bass for movies and stereo with believable LFE extension in my 48m²/120m³ living room without destroying the furnishing/interior (= reduced audiophile footprint).
So over the years I did this (together with my subjective scores):
- build 4 large sealed subs for best audio quality and output. (8/10)
- Use huge drivers to minimise cone excursion/distortion/audibility. (10/10)
- Use ample power to drive them. (8/10)
- Distribute them evenly in my room to combat seat to seat variation (6/10)
- Use no LPF or HPF on any of the subs, all crossovers are done in the AVR. (9/10)
- Bought an AVR with 4 discrete subwoofer outputs and flexible room EQ (= import REW measurements) (8/10)
- Correct all room decay under 150Hz.
- Deliver a seamless transition from main speakers to subwoofers.
- Get an even bass reproduction in all seats.
BTW I didn't know that vinyl had mono bass but when you look at the mechanical properties of the pick-up/needle it's very understandable.
I got the bass I was looking for with going all sealed down to 10hz flat without dsp for both music/ht. Some treatment and minimal analog eq.
4 low freq drivers in total. 2x10inchers, 1x18inch and 1x12 inch subs.
Some improvements can be done below 100hz in time domain. But I am limited with space.
Pics are slightly old as I upgraded now to 5.4.6. Sounds are really immersive now with 6 overheads. I was pleasantly surprised with Auro2D for music at the same time it's not perfect since it messes with bass in a way I don't like.
4 low freq drivers in total. 2x10inchers, 1x18inch and 1x12 inch subs.
Some improvements can be done below 100hz in time domain. But I am limited with space.
Pics are slightly old as I upgraded now to 5.4.6. Sounds are really immersive now with 6 overheads. I was pleasantly surprised with Auro2D for music at the same time it's not perfect since it messes with bass in a way I don't like.
Attachments
Anyone actually done this? To test if you have enough LF extension, you need source material with LF extension. Anyone got a list and some measurements? Otherwise we are just ******* in the wind.
Reaching naturally FC=10Hz with a sealed enclosure is simply amazing... It is probably due to the configuration of your auditorium and its low-end tones distribution.
T
I had an 11Hz tuning on my previous LLT subwoofer and there was a small soft plume attached to a clothespin standing in front of the port. When that plume moved, I knew there was infrasonic content in a specific movie. The early warning signs were the sofa shaking in a particular and pleasant wayAnyone actually done this? To test if you have enough LF extension, you need source material with LF extension. Anyone got a list and some measurements? Otherwise we are just ******* in the wind.
But in the end this was limited to only a few movies and most Bluray movies have their LFE cut @40hz anyway to protect the measly soundbars most people tend to like these days...
Its not that difficult if you take into account of room gain/boundary gain etc.
Yes, sure ! My little Omega Ripole (below, center position) offers me a bass extension FC up to 15Hz, which I consider a rather good performance given the size of my little auditorium, where only near-field music listening can be done...
T
Ok, I'm not a techie but I watch a lot of movies. The opening minutes of Edge of Tomorrow are sub-killers. My desktop speakers (ported, 6.5" woofers) have no interest in attempting to respond to the sub-bass signal. They simply ignore it.
I have extracted the first few minutes as an audio track. It is -21dB @ 22hz.
I don't know what settings you need me to use.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, infrasonic signal reproduction might not first be limited by loudspeaker capability, but by the previous elements of the signal chain. Many amplifiers, D/A converters, etc., already cut off at around 20 Hz.
Also, if it hasn't already been posted:
The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)
The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts
Also, if it hasn't already been posted:
The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc)
The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts