You can always mount the mic right onto the guitar as Dan Hicks did in the 70's. I notice he didnt practice that for long.
There's several preamps these days that have Mics inside the guitar. Everything's suboptimal and a pretty difficult problem to solve. Anything I've tried - besides the 'ol piezo right between the bridge and saddle - cant touch it, in terms of string signal to everything else the pickup can possibly get excited by. I think Yamaha did it right but I dont know how. There's even an optical pickup system someone created, where each string interrupts a light beam.
JJ - the mic would be a feedback machine for my guitar, tried it.
The piezo alone sucks, the magnetic alone, not so bad, both mixed together pretty good, but still sounds like **** through a standard amp.
Piezo and magnetic together through horns in the guitar, now that is the way to go. As you know I have tested and tested... it works and I am sticking with it!
I listen to Casey play up the fretboard and hear the bright beautiful sounds and harmonics, love it! Pretty much matches what REW measured.
I hear the beautiful warm lows, also matches REW, man listen with headphones on, seems even better. Shoot me your email for more videos!
The piezo alone sucks, the magnetic alone, not so bad, both mixed together pretty good, but still sounds like **** through a standard amp.
Piezo and magnetic together through horns in the guitar, now that is the way to go. As you know I have tested and tested... it works and I am sticking with it!
I listen to Casey play up the fretboard and hear the bright beautiful sounds and harmonics, love it! Pretty much matches what REW measured.
I hear the beautiful warm lows, also matches REW, man listen with headphones on, seems even better. Shoot me your email for more videos!
Have a look at https://graphtech.com/ I may have mentioned them before; hard to remember.
Their stuff is expensive, but you can do things like adjust the volume level of each string individually, do guitar synth interface. I'm seeing a solid body CNC carved archtop with F holes (or likewise shape as the horn mouths) in your design future. They say you can get an acoustic sound from your solid body at a switch flip using their pickups. Who knows if they're that good? Maybe.
Their stuff is expensive, but you can do things like adjust the volume level of each string individually, do guitar synth interface. I'm seeing a solid body CNC carved archtop with F holes (or likewise shape as the horn mouths) in your design future. They say you can get an acoustic sound from your solid body at a switch flip using their pickups. Who knows if they're that good? Maybe.
JJ - the Graphtec product line looks really great, especially volume adjustment of each string, I would love to try that, when I get time. 
CNC carved solid body archtop eh, now you are talking, maybe a CNC carved hollow body electric, like the big old beautiful Gibson that Wes Montgomery used to play. Man was his tone great, and his playing is truly beyond belief.
I am going to send you some videos tonight.
Acoustic sound from a solid body? Pretty much guitar modeling like you know who. I have not heard it, so I can't really give an opinion, but I see they are using piezo's, so I have my doubts. I will keep an open mind until I play one. One of my buddies has one, need to get over there and try it out!
CNC carved solid body archtop eh, now you are talking, maybe a CNC carved hollow body electric, like the big old beautiful Gibson that Wes Montgomery used to play. Man was his tone great, and his playing is truly beyond belief.
I am going to send you some videos tonight.
Acoustic sound from a solid body? Pretty much guitar modeling like you know who. I have not heard it, so I can't really give an opinion, but I see they are using piezo's, so I have my doubts. I will keep an open mind until I play one. One of my buddies has one, need to get over there and try it out!
This is an essential experience a had ages ago! Besides the brilliant player your axe sounds nice to me. Would like to check it, so if you come to Germany sometime....
There are tons of recordings and opinions posted on You Tube.
The Fender Acoustasonic guitars seem to be a good combination of acoustic and electric sounds from a very portable guitar. Two transducers and a magnetic pickup, weigh about 5 pounds.
I'd certainly prefer a light guitar and a powered PA speaker to a big heavy guitar with a built in amp and speakers, but I'm not your target audience
Thanks Art, I have commented on the Acoustasonic before, they sound great as an electric guitar, Strats are excellent. The acoustic sound I think is pretty good, and they seem to be selling well, so a nice idea for sure. Acoustically without any electronics they are pretty lame, you can't just pick it up and play it anywhere and get much power, the chamber is tiny, that is not going to happen.
I feel the same way about modeling guitars, they are pretty good, very nice idea. My friend that has one also says they sound pretty good. I am looking for input from people here that have actually played one. Obviously you can't play that without electronics.
The problem I have with these guitars is they are "pretty good", not even really good maybe, certainly not great. You can't match the beautiful tone of a fine tonewood acoustic guitar, so it is not on the same level in my book. Maybe I am just a purist when it comes to acoustic guitars. I know everybody will not agree with me. Plenty of people play electric pianos, they can't match a Grand Piano in my opinion.
Will my guitar sell? Unknown right now, I still give it a 50/50 chance. One thing I do know is I have that great sound, plus you can really feel the guitar when you play it, very powerful, and you can play it without any electronics at all, still a great acoustic sound. Plus of course you can mic it just like any other guitar, basically it can do everything you would want an acoustic guitar to do, in addition to having the horns inside providing 25 dB more power, still with great tone or even better.
I will do a YouTube video of course, which is great, but I still say experiencing a guitar watching it on your laptop and hearing it through small speakers is not even close to hearing a live demo of a powerful guitar with great tone, I need to get live demos! More info to follow, Stayed Tuned!
I feel the same way about modeling guitars, they are pretty good, very nice idea. My friend that has one also says they sound pretty good. I am looking for input from people here that have actually played one. Obviously you can't play that without electronics.
The problem I have with these guitars is they are "pretty good", not even really good maybe, certainly not great. You can't match the beautiful tone of a fine tonewood acoustic guitar, so it is not on the same level in my book. Maybe I am just a purist when it comes to acoustic guitars. I know everybody will not agree with me. Plenty of people play electric pianos, they can't match a Grand Piano in my opinion.
Will my guitar sell? Unknown right now, I still give it a 50/50 chance. One thing I do know is I have that great sound, plus you can really feel the guitar when you play it, very powerful, and you can play it without any electronics at all, still a great acoustic sound. Plus of course you can mic it just like any other guitar, basically it can do everything you would want an acoustic guitar to do, in addition to having the horns inside providing 25 dB more power, still with great tone or even better.
I will do a YouTube video of course, which is great, but I still say experiencing a guitar watching it on your laptop and hearing it through small speakers is not even close to hearing a live demo of a powerful guitar with great tone, I need to get live demos! More info to follow, Stayed Tuned!
I forgot to say thank you to bucks bunny! I have not been to Germany in about 30 years, I am overdue! The beer halls in Munich are a blast!
What I really need to do Art and JJ, is put my money where my mouth is (and my mouth goes to many places).
I also need to find a Rich partner.
I would love to buy an Acoustasonic and a Line 6 modeling guitar, then do an REW measurement on both, and compare to my Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar and a standard acoustic guitar (with and without amp), that would tell the story.
I have very high faith in REW now, even more so than before. It told me my guitar was very bright, and boy is that true when Casey plays those beautiful chords up the neck, just shined, not tinny in any way. I am starting to realize how important the high frequencies and harmonics really are on a stringed instrument. Plus the lows were warm as all get out. The mids have never been much of a puzzle, the strength of a guitar. I think everybody can do well there, but can you swim in the high water and the low waters, that is what really makes the difference in my opinion.
Plus my faith in horns has gone through the roof, man was Paul Klipsch correct. I know mine are more like a waveguide, but they are also horns in many ways. I also know they are small potatoes compared to big folded horns speakers with big drivers, but there is only so much room in a guitar, and man do they work! Hey how big and heavy does anybody really want a guitar to be? Mine is for sure, but man you can hold it and play it just fine, unless you are a10 year old girl, then maybe a problem, I guess I can write off the kid market.
I literally just received a text from one of my customers at work for more videos of Casey playing my guitar, he is spreading them around, as are many other people, he is a music freak and loves it! I saw his music list and could not believe it, thousands and thousands of great artists, man is he serious, blows my iPhone list of songs out of the water. The response from people is WAY stronger now that I have music, everybody is interested.
I have not received one single lukewarm or negative response, everybody is like wow that thing really works and sounds beautiful. I think many people thought I was nuts to put so much time into this. It ain't too much time of you love what you are doing!
Before it was mostly people like you guys that understand a Frequency Response, as you know, most people do not!
What I really need to do Art and JJ, is put my money where my mouth is (and my mouth goes to many places).
I also need to find a Rich partner.
I would love to buy an Acoustasonic and a Line 6 modeling guitar, then do an REW measurement on both, and compare to my Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar and a standard acoustic guitar (with and without amp), that would tell the story.
I have very high faith in REW now, even more so than before. It told me my guitar was very bright, and boy is that true when Casey plays those beautiful chords up the neck, just shined, not tinny in any way. I am starting to realize how important the high frequencies and harmonics really are on a stringed instrument. Plus the lows were warm as all get out. The mids have never been much of a puzzle, the strength of a guitar. I think everybody can do well there, but can you swim in the high water and the low waters, that is what really makes the difference in my opinion.
Plus my faith in horns has gone through the roof, man was Paul Klipsch correct. I know mine are more like a waveguide, but they are also horns in many ways. I also know they are small potatoes compared to big folded horns speakers with big drivers, but there is only so much room in a guitar, and man do they work! Hey how big and heavy does anybody really want a guitar to be? Mine is for sure, but man you can hold it and play it just fine, unless you are a10 year old girl, then maybe a problem, I guess I can write off the kid market.
I literally just received a text from one of my customers at work for more videos of Casey playing my guitar, he is spreading them around, as are many other people, he is a music freak and loves it! I saw his music list and could not believe it, thousands and thousands of great artists, man is he serious, blows my iPhone list of songs out of the water. The response from people is WAY stronger now that I have music, everybody is interested.
I have not received one single lukewarm or negative response, everybody is like wow that thing really works and sounds beautiful. I think many people thought I was nuts to put so much time into this. It ain't too much time of you love what you are doing!
Before it was mostly people like you guys that understand a Frequency Response, as you know, most people do not!
On YT I see them playing full size Fender P basses like a master. Sheesh...
Speaking of market, I'd look into busking, who's doing it, who's super popular, who's the local master at it. Tracy Chapman was busking in Harvard Square in 1985 when she was 21. (I knew others who at that time were doing it there also, but didnt catch the fame train like she did. They had good original songs, too)
Imagine someone that good of a player having the FHAG in a situation like that, where it's "25 db more power" would really make a difference. Get vocals going through it and couldnt be beat for that situation, I'd say. Drown everybody else in the square. Buskers would want that capability, I'd assume. Especially down in the subway near the trains in Boston, where a couple of the gal's I knew ~1985 would play. Open mic cafe' usually has a cord for your guitar - plenty of AC power too - so less advantage there.
I didn't have the time to read through the whole thread, so forgive me if I repeat anything. There are two immediate issues I see with this design and concept.
One big issue is weight. By the time you add all those horn folds and braces in the body, it will be fairly heavy. Maybe you can overcome the weight with strategic use of CF, FG, or very light weight wood ie balsa.
The other issue is practicality. If the amount of boosting effect the horn provides can't support the unamplified use of the guitar, its just kind of a gimmic. Please don't think I'm just trying to be a jerk saying this, I'm just trying to be realistic about it. The low end rolloff of the horn isn't sufficient to give the low end the guitar needs to have. It needs to at least reinforce output to 160 hz IMO and that doesn't account for drop tunings. I would have tried only using a single larger horn than 2 smaller ones.
There's actually a third issue now that I think of it. If you have enough practical gain at the internal speaker to provide a decent amount of acoustical output support, it will likely cause feedback that will be hard to manage without some form of signal processing. Maybe a less traditional shape of guitar body would allow a better design to avoid feedback.
Again, not trying to shoot you down with this post. Just trying to be a third party looking at the concept from another set of eyes.
My dad used to do some engineering and design for Brian Moore guitars back in the 90s. I'm currently working on a new conceptual design for acoustic guitar DI boxes which give a more natural sound than just using a pickup or a mic by themselves. So basically I like to do some design myself for things which I think could benefit the world of musicians around us. I really like the idea of different instrument designs and concepts, especially if they push people to explore new sounds and music. I dont think that Roland thought a drum machine would create and shape a while different genre of music back in the early 80s. Now the 808 drum machine is regarded as the holy grail of drum machines. Its limitations and unique sound are what made it so great, even if it wasn't intended to have it sound so gimmicky. That character is what made it great.
Ever since Ovation came out with their "Tupperware" guitar bodies, it opened my eyes to the fact that acoustic guitars need some way of output reinforcement in live situations which sound better and don't pose a big risk of feeding back. Its a beautiful instrument in itself and many of the things done to tame feedback really hurt the sonic performance in live settings.
One big issue is weight. By the time you add all those horn folds and braces in the body, it will be fairly heavy. Maybe you can overcome the weight with strategic use of CF, FG, or very light weight wood ie balsa.
The other issue is practicality. If the amount of boosting effect the horn provides can't support the unamplified use of the guitar, its just kind of a gimmic. Please don't think I'm just trying to be a jerk saying this, I'm just trying to be realistic about it. The low end rolloff of the horn isn't sufficient to give the low end the guitar needs to have. It needs to at least reinforce output to 160 hz IMO and that doesn't account for drop tunings. I would have tried only using a single larger horn than 2 smaller ones.
There's actually a third issue now that I think of it. If you have enough practical gain at the internal speaker to provide a decent amount of acoustical output support, it will likely cause feedback that will be hard to manage without some form of signal processing. Maybe a less traditional shape of guitar body would allow a better design to avoid feedback.
Again, not trying to shoot you down with this post. Just trying to be a third party looking at the concept from another set of eyes.
My dad used to do some engineering and design for Brian Moore guitars back in the 90s. I'm currently working on a new conceptual design for acoustic guitar DI boxes which give a more natural sound than just using a pickup or a mic by themselves. So basically I like to do some design myself for things which I think could benefit the world of musicians around us. I really like the idea of different instrument designs and concepts, especially if they push people to explore new sounds and music. I dont think that Roland thought a drum machine would create and shape a while different genre of music back in the early 80s. Now the 808 drum machine is regarded as the holy grail of drum machines. Its limitations and unique sound are what made it so great, even if it wasn't intended to have it sound so gimmicky. That character is what made it great.
Ever since Ovation came out with their "Tupperware" guitar bodies, it opened my eyes to the fact that acoustic guitars need some way of output reinforcement in live situations which sound better and don't pose a big risk of feeding back. Its a beautiful instrument in itself and many of the things done to tame feedback really hurt the sonic performance in live settings.
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If I get you right you are not a great fan of this concept. Same here, I did not like the sound from the very beginning. The amplified piezo pu under the bridge is a very poor attempt to acoustic sound imho. While the acoustical sound of these instruments was quite thin.
Hello profiguy, thank you for your input, this is not a gimmick. It has been built, I have test data showing improved FR at 25 dB more power, and it sounds great. It will not feedback unless you push it to just about the max limit. I did have a request from Casey (the professional musician that played it) to lower the action. I did that last night, much lower, regret not doing it before, plays even easier and no fret buzz. I do agree my guitar is heavy, but playing it sitting down is not a problem, and playing it with a strap is not bad either, about the same weight as an old Les Paul. My goal is to sell my Intellectual Property (U.S. Patent # 10,777,172), and if I am lucky enough to do that, improvements can be made for sure.
Not sure what you mean by this, can you explain please:
Plus the guitar has improved low end, the data shows it and you can hear it. I like your conceptual design for a more natural sound from a DI box, can you share some info? If you are not ready to do that, I understand, are you going to get a Patent? I wrote my own, and if you are interested in doing this I recommend "Patent It Yourself" by David Pressman and David E. Blau, both Patent Attorneys and DP was also a long time Patent Agent, excellent book.
JJ - I showed a guy my design in a music store a few years back and he said buskers would love it, I hope you are right!
I noted before that an electric piano does not sound like a Grand Piano, by no means was I trying to put down electric pains, a good old Fender Rhodes is a great sound, and I absolutely love the sound of a Hammond B3 organ (Greg Allman comes to mind).
I also made a comment about laptop speakers again, I did by some nice Klipsch Computer speakers, now that I will be listening to more music on YouTube...
I decided I should make a PPT showing how horns work, people keep asking me about that. I will have plenty of pictures and specs, will run it by the diyAudio community for corrections and a blessing before I put it on my website (when it is ready). I think the Keystone will get some good play (with Art's permission), plenty of Klipsch, crazy folded horn speakers from the internet for fun, my guitar, maybe some Dr. Seuss
Also bucks bunny, thank you for staying on the thread. I am not a big fan of Ovation guitars, but some people really like them. I think they are OK when going through a pickup, I mean you take the entire body of the guitar out of the sound, so who cares if it is plastic? Acoustically or with a mic, a different animal, but you have to give the guy credit for being innovative, and having the kahunas to try something new and radical.
profiguy, you have to respond, you are in deep now, thanks for joining in. I hope it is fun thread, as well as interesting.
Let's Make The Acoustic Guitar Rock!
Not sure what you mean by this, can you explain please:
Plus the guitar has improved low end, the data shows it and you can hear it. I like your conceptual design for a more natural sound from a DI box, can you share some info? If you are not ready to do that, I understand, are you going to get a Patent? I wrote my own, and if you are interested in doing this I recommend "Patent It Yourself" by David Pressman and David E. Blau, both Patent Attorneys and DP was also a long time Patent Agent, excellent book.
JJ - I showed a guy my design in a music store a few years back and he said buskers would love it, I hope you are right!
I noted before that an electric piano does not sound like a Grand Piano, by no means was I trying to put down electric pains, a good old Fender Rhodes is a great sound, and I absolutely love the sound of a Hammond B3 organ (Greg Allman comes to mind).
I also made a comment about laptop speakers again, I did by some nice Klipsch Computer speakers, now that I will be listening to more music on YouTube...
I decided I should make a PPT showing how horns work, people keep asking me about that. I will have plenty of pictures and specs, will run it by the diyAudio community for corrections and a blessing before I put it on my website (when it is ready). I think the Keystone will get some good play (with Art's permission), plenty of Klipsch, crazy folded horn speakers from the internet for fun, my guitar, maybe some Dr. Seuss
Also bucks bunny, thank you for staying on the thread. I am not a big fan of Ovation guitars, but some people really like them. I think they are OK when going through a pickup, I mean you take the entire body of the guitar out of the sound, so who cares if it is plastic? Acoustically or with a mic, a different animal, but you have to give the guy credit for being innovative, and having the kahunas to try something new and radical.
profiguy, you have to respond, you are in deep now, thanks for joining in. I hope it is fun thread, as well as interesting.
Let's Make The Acoustic Guitar Rock!
Hey that sounds great Freddi, thank you. It has been a while, stay with us brother! Obviously a nylon string guitar can't use magnetic pickups, so the piezo is a good choice. I must say the piezo sounds better with nylon strings that electric strings. Anybody have any playing or recording experience with this?
Plus I see it eliminates the saddle and the strings wrap right around the piezo, but the piezo must have a housing, so that might be "saddle like" ??
I wonder if I could use it with steel/bronze strings somehow...hmm...anybody care to jump in on this concept?
Plus I see it eliminates the saddle and the strings wrap right around the piezo, but the piezo must have a housing, so that might be "saddle like" ??
I wonder if I could use it with steel/bronze strings somehow...hmm...anybody care to jump in on this concept?
Too bad I cant play like that guy - not even close. His playing deserves a $1000 investment, $100 shipping each way. Still, without investing that kind of dough, I'd like to get something better, in a DIY context. I'm working on it and I've found that the signal / noise ratio of getting something directly under the strings, right where they convey their energy into the guitar body cant be beat.
There's also the matter of weight. IMHO in that position, whatever transducer design cant have any weight, or it will destroy the sound. Those little thin piezo strips fit that bill. What's lighter than that, light? Do a laser interferometer on the inside, bouncing off the soundboard? As an amateur collector, I wont touch one of those vintage 70's acoustics with the metal screws / I beam in the saddle to make the action adjustable. Done by Aria to Gibson. The Gibsons oft get the bridge replaced by a normal one, to improve the sound.
Here's an idea that wont sell; route a channel around the bridge and wind a coil in there, light as you can make it. Suspend some neo magnets on a post off the back of the guitar (easy to do on the FHAG, only an inch or so to the divider board) so they make a field close to the wire. Voila! Moving magnet acoustic guitar pickup. As long as owners are willing to rip the bridge / saddle off and replace it with a whole different piece.
Even that's going to turn the soundboard into a giant microphone diaphram, which will pickup everything, including its own voice through an amplifier, resulting in eventual feedback.
The Dead in their wall of sound days had two out of phase capsules on each vocal mic stand. Sounds from far away would cancel. You were supposed to pick one of the two and sing into just that one. A pickup would have to behave like that somehow; far away sound source - cancels. Right in front of the guitar - full signal. How to do that is a challenging acoustic engineering problem.
There's also the matter of weight. IMHO in that position, whatever transducer design cant have any weight, or it will destroy the sound. Those little thin piezo strips fit that bill. What's lighter than that, light? Do a laser interferometer on the inside, bouncing off the soundboard? As an amateur collector, I wont touch one of those vintage 70's acoustics with the metal screws / I beam in the saddle to make the action adjustable. Done by Aria to Gibson. The Gibsons oft get the bridge replaced by a normal one, to improve the sound.
Here's an idea that wont sell; route a channel around the bridge and wind a coil in there, light as you can make it. Suspend some neo magnets on a post off the back of the guitar (easy to do on the FHAG, only an inch or so to the divider board) so they make a field close to the wire. Voila! Moving magnet acoustic guitar pickup. As long as owners are willing to rip the bridge / saddle off and replace it with a whole different piece.
Even that's going to turn the soundboard into a giant microphone diaphram, which will pickup everything, including its own voice through an amplifier, resulting in eventual feedback.
The Dead in their wall of sound days had two out of phase capsules on each vocal mic stand. Sounds from far away would cancel. You were supposed to pick one of the two and sing into just that one. A pickup would have to behave like that somehow; far away sound source - cancels. Right in front of the guitar - full signal. How to do that is a challenging acoustic engineering problem.
The Go Acoustic Audio pickup system uses six transducers in the saddle pickup, connected by two ribbon cables to the pre-amp, which has six individual volume controls.
You could use any kind of strings with it, and with the individual volume controls you could even balance the level between a mix of steel and nylon.
The Universal Side Mount System has a 3-band equalizer and an 8-position high frequency contour switch.
https://www.goacousticaudio.com/about-us
#62 in this https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7395280 thread is pretty interesting.