We lost the heat and hot water all in one go the other night, an big ouch, oil tank took on water, snow/freeze/thaw/rain cycles of late, took out the furnice burner fuel pump. upon inspection they condemned the tank they installed in 2002, over twenty years old, telling me know that the tank mfg made some bad models in the year they sold me mine, won't deliver fuel anymore unless I change the tank that still has ~25% left in it, fun wow, now what? tech told me I could put burn diesel to get us through winter if i need too. but need to replace tank as a minimum. So now what? decision time, ditch the oil, go with what? propane, electric heat pump? New furnice? Nothing wrong with the old burning furnice now that it has a new fuel pump.
We will replace the oil burning hot water heater, installed in 2002 and change over to electricity asap.
I saw on US PBS "this old house"installion of a new Reem Hi-eff electric hot water unit with wi-fi
anyone have any experiences? I see them for sale at HDepot for >$2K CDN vs a regular equal volume unit for ~$600.00
We have no natural gas in my rural area. Lots of dead ash trees, cost the township/tax payer $1M+ plus for the last few year to take down, or get sued for damages
Now we're in Canda so what is done outside of Canada may not apply to us.
We will replace the oil burning hot water heater, installed in 2002 and change over to electricity asap.
I saw on US PBS "this old house"installion of a new Reem Hi-eff electric hot water unit with wi-fi
anyone have any experiences? I see them for sale at HDepot for >$2K CDN vs a regular equal volume unit for ~$600.00We have no natural gas in my rural area. Lots of dead ash trees, cost the township/tax payer $1M+ plus for the last few year to take down, or get sued for damages
Now we're in Canda so what is done outside of Canada may not apply to us.
I replaced my 15 yr old elec hot water heater 2yrs ago with a modern electric/heat pump model. I'm in the US and got significant subsidies from my state and my local elec utility. It ended up costing less than an all elec replacement in kind. Much more efficient and dehumidifies my basement as a bonus. Saves me at least $400/yr over the old one. So far it's worked flawlessly. Without subsidies it was a bit more expensive but the elec savings are real.
I think it depends on how reliable is your electric, like your life and home depend on it. My experience in the "big freeze" in TX taught me the following. Gas stove good, works without power and as a last resort can keep my house above freezing, Gas furnace could have been good and is now, I now have a small gas gen with enough power to run the gas furnace, around 600w is all you need. Running a heat pump on a gen unless really big is pretty much out of the question. I saw many frozen tankless hot water units replaced here during the freeze. They are often mounted on an exterior wall here for ease of gas plumb/vent and they need juice to run and prevent freezing. The tankless need a big pipe as they use much more gas than a plain hot water heater, so they often mount outside. From what little I know about propane, I think more expensive per therm than oil. And many areas require an annual inspection on the tank.
Oh, one more thing, consider life expectancy in cost. You did really well getting 20+ years out of a hot water heater. They typically only warrant for 9 and water will corrode the tank. There is usually a sacrificial magnesium rod in the tank and once that has been eaten up, the water starts on the tank. I just replaced mine, it was around 18 and was starting to leak a tiny bit. I imagine the tankless ones still corrode from the water passing thru the passageways. Also consider cost of repair. I've purchased some fairly high eff A/C units and discovered the warranty is all but worthless. Parts are covered but not labor. So you can either pay for the 400 dollar ECM motor and replace it yourself or pay the labor charge of 400+ to have authorized service replace it with a free part. In the last case, I opted to replace the motor with a single speed $180 unit myself. The energy savings from running the outdoor condenser fan at low speed was never going to cover the over 200 extra. Both of the ECM's that have failed on me were only 5-7 years old. So to me one more reason not to go heatpump is now the unit is in use all year causing an even shorter life than when you only use it for AC.
I would probably convert over to a heat pump hot water system. Propane isn't cheaper than oil. You'll have to upgrade your electrical service to 200 amps for the heat pump thou, so there's extra cost for that.
We're kinda in the same boat here. No gas up our street. All the neighbors have replaced their old oil furnaces with heat pumps.
jeff
Last edited:
Ouch. This sounds like a nightmare.
A hear pump hot water heater with an 80 gallon tank should more than meet your hot water needs. The average power draw is just a few amps and they have on demand backup heaters as needed.
The newer Mitsubishi multistage whole house air to air heat pumps will provide heat down with external temperatures down to to -13F. They have backup resistor heat after this. These systems are good for the planet but I do not know what your electric utility rates are and how many days a year you would use the backup heat. On the other hand, oil as you know has been frightfully expensive lately in its own right.
Geothermal hear pumps in your area may make more sense but drilling a well and the piping and permits may be almost as bad as dealing with that tank.
Best of luck!
A hear pump hot water heater with an 80 gallon tank should more than meet your hot water needs. The average power draw is just a few amps and they have on demand backup heaters as needed.
The newer Mitsubishi multistage whole house air to air heat pumps will provide heat down with external temperatures down to to -13F. They have backup resistor heat after this. These systems are good for the planet but I do not know what your electric utility rates are and how many days a year you would use the backup heat. On the other hand, oil as you know has been frightfully expensive lately in its own right.
Geothermal hear pumps in your area may make more sense but drilling a well and the piping and permits may be almost as bad as dealing with that tank.
Best of luck!
Thanks for all the feedback. Had a long conversation yesterday with the HVAC folks that installed the AC unit only a few years ago giving me good info on gov rebates and the available technology.
One big issue with heat pumps are long term reliability and service. Most of the units are of off shore manufacturing. From what I heard I’d never buy an Asian mfg product such as a washer or drier, so why would I get a heat pump from the same mfg? I am very weiry of long term service and parts availability.
If electricity goes out for a long time you are hosed with a heat pump but if you have gas you can at least run your gas furnace from a small AC generator assuming that you have enough fuel to run it.
If in the middle of winter your heat pump controller goes south, is a service part available in hours, days, weeks? At least with a gas furnace you have a much better chance of getting someone to service it.
One big issue with heat pumps are long term reliability and service. Most of the units are of off shore manufacturing. From what I heard I’d never buy an Asian mfg product such as a washer or drier, so why would I get a heat pump from the same mfg? I am very weiry of long term service and parts availability.
If electricity goes out for a long time you are hosed with a heat pump but if you have gas you can at least run your gas furnace from a small AC generator assuming that you have enough fuel to run it.
If in the middle of winter your heat pump controller goes south, is a service part available in hours, days, weeks? At least with a gas furnace you have a much better chance of getting someone to service it.
This, in spades on some of the hardware. We had a 7-year-old mini split heat pump on a server room at work. Main board died and no parts were available, so the company had to replace it with a whole new unit. Many HVAC companies in the US push replacement hard with every service call, so they really did not need more excuses on that front.
Electricity and fuel costs factor heavily into all this. If replacing an electric water heater with a heat pump water heater, you're likely to recoup the extra cost quickly. With today's natural gas prices in the Midwest of the US, you'd probably need a lifetime to get the extra money back if replacing a gas water heater (even with a pilot light) with a heat pump water heater, and the new model is going to fail how often?
Geothermal heat pumps are supposed to have much longer lives than air-source, but the install costs are typically much higher than an average person is going to be enthusiastic about. Seems like it was around US$20,000 per well if you have to drill, but local conditions factor heavily into this. If you can do horizontal loops, those can sometimes be cheaper, but you disturb more area and I'm not sure how deep you'd have to go in Canada.
Last edited:
When we built our house 33 years ago Ontario Hydro was giving $5000 to aid in installing ground source heat pumps. Just about everybody in the new neighbourhood got one as there was no gas line in the neighbourhood. Maybe mine was undersized. I had hydro bills exceeding $400 a month in January and February. The service guys came over so often we would exchange birthday presents. When the warranty expired I switched to oil as there was no Natural gas in the neighbourhood. Back then oil was 21 cents a liter. It cost $600 for the whole winter to heat the house. While the oil furnace was under warranty Enbridge put in a natural gas line through the neighbourhood and people started to switch over to gas. My oil furnace was still new so I just put in a natural gas hot water tank and converted 2 of the wood burning fireplaces to natural gas. When oil skyrocketed to $3000 a year to heat the house I switched to gas. Now every level of government wants to get rid of gas and switch to heat pumps. To convert my place Im looking at $20,000 to $30,000 to get air to air heat pumps. No Fing way. Sure I might get a pile of cash back form the feds etc but who will pay for the replacement in 10-15 years? A new 98% efficient furnace like I have now is only $5000.
Propane is not cheap A heat pump is cheaper to run than oil and propane. Depending where you live is installing an outdoor wood hot water furnace feasible?
How about hot water pellet stoves? There were quite a few of them in Scotland. A buddy of mine heats his house with a pellet stove. The hopper is good for at least 30 hours. It costs my buddy about $5 a day to heat his log house. He buys a few skid loads of pellets in the summer.
Propane is not cheap A heat pump is cheaper to run than oil and propane. Depending where you live is installing an outdoor wood hot water furnace feasible?
How about hot water pellet stoves? There were quite a few of them in Scotland. A buddy of mine heats his house with a pellet stove. The hopper is good for at least 30 hours. It costs my buddy about $5 a day to heat his log house. He buys a few skid loads of pellets in the summer.
Probably things have changed quite a bit since I owned a heat pump living in AZ. Very bad experience with it and I can't seem to forget that. I do like the idea of running propane to a furnace and using an electric generator to run it. A few people have mentioned that once the lights go out, you have nothing. And yes, research dependability of new gear as well. I found out that I may NOT go with Generac for an electrical source. There was a lot of info just on that subject alone. I wish you luck with this decision, and try to consider the source as a whole when advice is given. Where do they live? What are their needs? How long have they owned the equipment? Keep us informed. This is big.
I was doing some comparisons.
I live in a townhome complex. We are not allowed to do our own contracting, we must hire certified pros.
For us to supplement our electric heat with an above ground heat pump with two heads would cost $X.
Allowing for an increase in electricity costs, that heat pump would finally pay itself off in 2045. I don't expect to be alive then.
I am looking into hot water on demand but I see as many persons complaining about it as praising it.
I live in a townhome complex. We are not allowed to do our own contracting, we must hire certified pros.
For us to supplement our electric heat with an above ground heat pump with two heads would cost $X.
Allowing for an increase in electricity costs, that heat pump would finally pay itself off in 2045. I don't expect to be alive then.
I am looking into hot water on demand but I see as many persons complaining about it as praising it.
Last edited:
Hmm, I thought areas serviced by Niagra Falls generation had very low cost per kwh. Has that changed? I recall a story about the crypto miners parking their rigs on the cheap power from hydro. Kind of pissed me off they'd allow that. Oh, one other nice thing about old style hot water heaters. In a pinch, you have 40-50 gallons of potable water.
Exactly. Trane is/was a great brand. And yes, you live in a different climate, but there is the humidity to be dealt with instead of sub zero temps. 17 years ago, I bought a Coleman furnace and for about 2 years had serious issues with it. In the end, most of the trouble was due to improper installation, by the local gas company, whom everybody trusted. Fixed it myself, under duress. Been good for 14-15 years so far.
So, there are so many variables to each circumstance. If you decipher what your actual needs are, you will be far ahead.
So, there are so many variables to each circumstance. If you decipher what your actual needs are, you will be far ahead.
IF, you live in a rural community, and have frequent power outages, you're better off servicing what you have, and getting a backup generator.
jeff
In my opinion getting a Air2Air heatpump from a known brand (Daikin, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, in Sweden we have some local brands even) designed for cold climate yu can expect 10+ years of service life. I replaced an old Mitsubishi 2 years back, in 2021 and it was then 15 years. But of course it wont supply sufficient heat in really cold weather. In Sweden we call it the "Nordic modells". Basically they are designed so during defrosting run off melt water is falling freely on the ground.
A geothermal heat pump can provide all heat you need with little extra electricity for the insert heater if sized accordingly. Air2Air is of course a far lower investment but requires additional heating, depending on your system during cold periods in most cold climates.
Sometimes an old heating system with radiators is not designed for low temperature such as from heat pumps. Most oil heating system was gone by the 90ies, we have very little gas in Sweden but plenty of ´tricity. And district heating in most towns, using today biofuel and waste as energy.
I live south Sweden, climatewise about Vancouver and use Air2Air heat pump for heating to 90% of my heating requirements. Use about 5000kWh of electrictiy for a house of 200 sq m for heating in total, and thereof 4-4500kWh for the heat pump.
As for a backup we have stoves for wood normally, that provides with warmth. Mostly for the enjoyment but dual purpose of course. But we have < 1h blackouts annually. But recent conflicts,pandemic etc and NATO debate etc has given arise to new awareness of people actyally preparing for that scenario.
