Having just built an Econowave in a 170L cab and finding in it what I've been missing for so long, I want to take it to the next level. Can anyone point me in the direction of 2 way speakers that can reproduce the entire audible frequency range?
no way !!!
😀
Technology had improved and you can find specialized drivers to cover the 'gaps' ...you know : the blanket is too short either way .
You can have your feet warm and your head cold ,and vice-versa .
170 liters are quite big so if well aligned the bass should be satisfactory , maybe a supertweeter is what you're looking for ,just a little 3/4 inch dome may do the job.
😀
Technology had improved and you can find specialized drivers to cover the 'gaps' ...you know : the blanket is too short either way .
You can have your feet warm and your head cold ,and vice-versa .
170 liters are quite big so if well aligned the bass should be satisfactory , maybe a supertweeter is what you're looking for ,just a little 3/4 inch dome may do the job.
Yes
Yes 😉 with a Ted Jordan designed drive unit, and a sub of your choice 😉
E.J.Jordan Designs loudspeaker design & consultancy
Yes 😉 with a Ted Jordan designed drive unit, and a sub of your choice 😉
E.J.Jordan Designs loudspeaker design & consultancy
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Yes, a JXR6 with their largest bass unit(1st order?) or 2 x JXR6 and this Seas for higher SPL's http://www.seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/h1209_l26rfx_p_datasheet.pdf
Also this aluminium 8" fountek has an f3 of 25 hz and its just 75 euros
http://www.fountek.net/uploadfile/1012/24180934.PDF
Also this aluminium 8" fountek has an f3 of 25 hz and its just 75 euros
http://www.fountek.net/uploadfile/1012/24180934.PDF
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If youre talking about "normal" speakers I think the best alternative is to use the right 8inch driver coupled to a 1inch tweeter. Making sure you use the wall for bass-reinforcement you should be able to build a speaker that gives you full-range at generous spl-lvls.
One such example is the Ino-Audio pi60
It has custom made drivers and is probably one of the best examples of a high quality 2-way speaker. Commercialized as the Guru Audio qm60 The QM60 | Guru Loudspeakers
The new 8inch driver from Transmission Audio Inc. might be a good candidate.
One such example is the Ino-Audio pi60
It has custom made drivers and is probably one of the best examples of a high quality 2-way speaker. Commercialized as the Guru Audio qm60 The QM60 | Guru Loudspeakers
The new 8inch driver from Transmission Audio Inc. might be a good candidate.
As said, it should be possible by using one of the now many available 2-3" 'full-range' drivers paired with a large bass driver. The full-range driver allows you to use a low crossover, maybe 300-400Hz, which a typical tweeter couldn't handle and hence you can run a large/heavy enough bass driver to play to 20Hz without beaming/breakups before the crossover.
A 24dB or more active crossover will make the task easier too. You probably won't quite get the same dispersion from the 2-3" as you would from a typical tweeter, but on-axis you can get 20kHz from some of them and the treble can actually sound rather sweet.
A 24dB or more active crossover will make the task easier too. You probably won't quite get the same dispersion from the 2-3" as you would from a typical tweeter, but on-axis you can get 20kHz from some of them and the treble can actually sound rather sweet.
An 8" driver in a conventional sealed/ported cabinet won't hit 20Hz with any authority. Plus, that particular cabinet would likely give nasty diffraction effects by achieving time-aligned drivers.
Use a low-throw unit, and IM distortion etc becomes a problem.
Small, wide-band units can have their own problems, including HF beaming (previously mentioned), which gives an uneven power response, and their power handling (when you want serious dynamics) could end up a hinderance.
My current set-up does 25Hz-20kHz using a pair of FE126eNs and a pair of tapped horns, with the TB 6.5" sub. Larger tapped horns would go lower, but I've a small room and these ones are a little too large.
Due to the relatively narrow operating range of the tapped horns (25-80Hz), the Fostexes must cover a large range, so I still lose out on some dynamics, due to cone excursion becoming an issue at >80Hz. Plus, with their relatively small power handling, they'd struggle to reproduce drums at the volume they should be.
A design like the Econowave seems to be the way to do it, but getting sufficient cabinet volume for a 15" driver to hit 20Hz could be problematic.
Chris
sure it would all depend on what kind of spl youd like. The speakers above (pi60) is specified as 25Hz-20kHz +/- 1dB. And have a specified spl capability 114dB/pair above 100Hz.*
In a normal living room they should have all the spl most people would need.
But true it places some extraordinary demands on the drivers. The newst version of this particular speaker have some 20 years of development behind them. So it isnt a "normal" speaker in that regard.
A much better approach is a 2-way crossed to a couple of dedicated (sub)woofers for better room interaction.
A fullrange as you talk of have its own problems. Even a 3inch driver have their break-up in the 3-5kHz range with the resulting problems with dispersion, distortion and power handling.
Also for the bass a reflex-box is the most efficient solution in terms of box-size and bass-extention.
edit: * thats in room spl. Theyre meant to be placed right up to the wall so they get quite alot of room-reinforcement for the lower frequencies.
In a normal living room they should have all the spl most people would need.
But true it places some extraordinary demands on the drivers. The newst version of this particular speaker have some 20 years of development behind them. So it isnt a "normal" speaker in that regard.
A much better approach is a 2-way crossed to a couple of dedicated (sub)woofers for better room interaction.
A fullrange as you talk of have its own problems. Even a 3inch driver have their break-up in the 3-5kHz range with the resulting problems with dispersion, distortion and power handling.
Also for the bass a reflex-box is the most efficient solution in terms of box-size and bass-extention.
edit: * thats in room spl. Theyre meant to be placed right up to the wall so they get quite alot of room-reinforcement for the lower frequencies.
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It seems that you want to hear the good lows but at the same time also the good things associated with 2-way bookshelf. That's why you mention about 2-way requirement.
I believe, 2-way or 6-way, it doesn't matter as long as it is your "next level". And your next level is a speaker that can go equally low but has better quality than the econowave. You have two options:
(1) Build an expensive multi-way system such as the Statement by Jim Holtz (if it is low enough)
(2) Find similar 2-way design, but with LOWER distortion drivers. Low distortion 15" woofer is I think expensive/rare (otherwise big enclosure with smaller driver)
Zero D, Bill Poster,
Thank you. I am very interested in this approach. I will read up on the approach you have suggested (small, special full range drivers + sub). However, for my current level of understanding, I am trying to improve these larger format speakers.
Kraniet,
Thank you. That is an interesting speaker! But I am looking at something more like this...
Also attached is a pic of my humble first effort... obviously not finished/ready yet...
Jay,
Thank you. I like the symmetry in many of the models my search brought up... but as above, I'm looking at a different design approach...
Thank you. I am very interested in this approach. I will read up on the approach you have suggested (small, special full range drivers + sub). However, for my current level of understanding, I am trying to improve these larger format speakers.
Kraniet,
Thank you. That is an interesting speaker! But I am looking at something more like this...
Also attached is a pic of my humble first effort... obviously not finished/ready yet...
Jay,
Thank you. I like the symmetry in many of the models my search brought up... but as above, I'm looking at a different design approach...
Attachments
Your best bet would be to get a couple of subs to use with your Ewaves.
Bass being ridiculously room position sensitive, and the optimum placement for low bass being virtually never the same as the optimum placement for the rest of the band, anything else is a big compromise.
Bass being ridiculously room position sensitive, and the optimum placement for low bass being virtually never the same as the optimum placement for the rest of the band, anything else is a big compromise.
I think I understand your preferred design approach. Assuming that you know what it takes to get the lowest frequency, and assuming that everyone can make a good speaker (whatever the parameters of the drivers are), the only limitation is the quality of the driver itself (the distortion). You can make a non-fatiguing speaker, a speaker that can disappear, only with low distortion drivers.
You might as well ignore all the posts talking about silly small woofers doing real bass so far considering they do not understand the dynamics offered by your econowave design. There seems to be a big disconnect so far from most posts answering you.
There is no such thing as a 2-way that does 20Hz - 20KHz that remotely matches your Econowave from 80Hz to 20KHz.
I would recommend adding a subwoofer below the Econowave. I run 3-way waveguide designs myself. with a 15" subwoofer (AV15X). Wimpy 8" drivers and smaller need not apply for the job...they are minor leagues for real clean SPL in the HT room. Do not let the regular full range crowd confuse you with the idea that a small driver does 20Hz, remember they sit about 3 feet from their speakers 😉 There is really no way of getting around the laws of physics and to have the best 20Hz to 20KHz you need multiple drivers that handle their specific ranges the best.
Here is my waveguide + subwoofer.
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Getting a true 20 Hz is actually quite a challenge. How you get that will dictate how low the mid-tweeter will need to go. Easing things to 25 or 30 hz makes it a lot more doable.
With the wide range of quality full-range drivers available today, the best bet to achieve your goals is a FAST. ayou will need to be careful with the transition area. Woofers that will reach 20 Hz often do not reach high enuff to get a good transition,
With the wide range of quality full-range drivers available today, the best bet to achieve your goals is a FAST. ayou will need to be careful with the transition area. Woofers that will reach 20 Hz often do not reach high enuff to get a good transition,
question is more like how many dBL of sensitivity You want to sacrifice.
And how many of the final max SPL You want to sacrifice.
You can actualy get 20hz to 20 khz with a 6.5 " and a decent tweeter.
But it won't be loud for sure, lol.
And how many of the final max SPL You want to sacrifice.
You can actualy get 20hz to 20 khz with a 6.5 " and a decent tweeter.
But it won't be loud for sure, lol.
Very true, we can do 20Hz with headphones...
Maybe he just needs to strap the full range driver design to his ears 😉
Maybe he just needs to strap the full range driver design to his ears 😉
I find all these discussion about the spl needen quite interesting. Mostly since my own experience with how much spl one really can and should (on fear of hearing damage) withstand for long periods.
The lvls Ive measured in my living room are in the range of 75-85dBA with peaks up to 95dbA in the listening position (about 3m away). Thats really loud and having a averge spl of 85dB is quite exhausting to the ears for any extended period. It is also the reference for cinema with an additional 20dB in the bass.
Anyway. What I think any person into diy should do is first state what kind of room there gonna use. The size of the room and the distance to the speakers from listening position is quite vital.
Then find out wich kind of spl they want. If you dont want to spend money on a spl-meter just unpack it carefully use it and return it right away. I think many might be surprised of how little (relatively) dB theyre actually able to withstand for extended listening. If one, say normaly listens to over 85dB average they should start worrying about their long term hearing. Its a pointless hobby if your ears doesnt work, isnt it?
Anyway. Once establishing the spl you want your speakers to output, you can go to work. A good recording on a CD might have some 20dB dynamic range. There are some that are better but even 20dB is quite unusual. Most modern music normally have something like 8-10dB and some even have 0 dynamic range. An extra 3dB on top of that is probably wise aswell.
After youre done with all that its much easier to state what youd need.
For most people that doesnt call for anything other than "silly small woofers". With exception for the bass area where most would be content with a couple of 10 or 12" woofers.
But Im not here to **** on anyones parade. Its just that I think it always nice to "define" the parameters before asking a question like "how can I make a full range 2-way".
For the kind of speaker youre interested in Id probably take some stron influence from the JBL K2. Its a 2-way with two 15" and a horn. It isnt my cup of tea, and im not sure itll give you "true reference sound" but I can see how it would appeal to people. And as far as that kind of speaker I think it has both aesthetical appeal aswell as sound engineering.
The lvls Ive measured in my living room are in the range of 75-85dBA with peaks up to 95dbA in the listening position (about 3m away). Thats really loud and having a averge spl of 85dB is quite exhausting to the ears for any extended period. It is also the reference for cinema with an additional 20dB in the bass.
Anyway. What I think any person into diy should do is first state what kind of room there gonna use. The size of the room and the distance to the speakers from listening position is quite vital.
Then find out wich kind of spl they want. If you dont want to spend money on a spl-meter just unpack it carefully use it and return it right away. I think many might be surprised of how little (relatively) dB theyre actually able to withstand for extended listening. If one, say normaly listens to over 85dB average they should start worrying about their long term hearing. Its a pointless hobby if your ears doesnt work, isnt it?
Anyway. Once establishing the spl you want your speakers to output, you can go to work. A good recording on a CD might have some 20dB dynamic range. There are some that are better but even 20dB is quite unusual. Most modern music normally have something like 8-10dB and some even have 0 dynamic range. An extra 3dB on top of that is probably wise aswell.
After youre done with all that its much easier to state what youd need.
For most people that doesnt call for anything other than "silly small woofers". With exception for the bass area where most would be content with a couple of 10 or 12" woofers.
But Im not here to **** on anyones parade. Its just that I think it always nice to "define" the parameters before asking a question like "how can I make a full range 2-way".
For the kind of speaker youre interested in Id probably take some stron influence from the JBL K2. Its a 2-way with two 15" and a horn. It isnt my cup of tea, and im not sure itll give you "true reference sound" but I can see how it would appeal to people. And as far as that kind of speaker I think it has both aesthetical appeal aswell as sound engineering.
2500 cm3 of air have to be set in motion for 114 db@30hz which is preceived by humans as 90 phon (90 db spl subjectively with 1 khz reference@ 90 db spl)
250 cm3 of displacement per one cone cycle for 90 db@30 hz spl which is equal to 70 phon.
This knowledge depresses and frustrates me from the day I learned it.
This means that not later than ~10W input a 8 inch woofer with 90 db sensitivity and 30 hz @-10 db would give up... reproducing a maximum of not more than 90 db in sealed enclosure or infinite baffle and not more than 96 db in the best other enclosures.
Don't be mistaken, better sensitivity would only mean it will end it's excursion sooner.
MJK's Goldwood H frames + OB are the best way to have everything and lots of it in the same time and they really give you another point of view over the JSB Orghan Works... Under some conditions they can do 18 hz @ -6 db 😱😀
I myself am struggling and cannot see any practical way to go near 20-25 hz... as a matter of fact I can't think of much if any non practical ways to do it with two per side 12 inch woofers with Fs of 25 hz that do 30-31 hz fs out of the box...
And even worse, big boxes have big front baffles that have big bsffle steps, that automatically transform your -6db point into a -12 db point if you don't crossover low enough. Even worse you can't use first order crossover just below baffle step beginning, because it will remain in the response, you have to consider that in the design too and that in most cases leaves you with inpedance peak in the crossover frequency.
You should look at Volt Loudspeakers Volt Loudspeakers - Ps18/300
Never heard one of those, but they are highly recomended.
And AE Speakers AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
Never heard one of those too. If one day I get the feeling that I have finally learned how to constuct a decent enclosure and cone speakers and these manufacturers still exist, I will probably do some DIY with woofer from one of those brands.
Another option is MJK mathcad OB or H frame sheet and modeling a H frame with one or more 15 inch AE drivers per side...
Wish you luck.
250 cm3 of displacement per one cone cycle for 90 db@30 hz spl which is equal to 70 phon.
This knowledge depresses and frustrates me from the day I learned it.
This means that not later than ~10W input a 8 inch woofer with 90 db sensitivity and 30 hz @-10 db would give up... reproducing a maximum of not more than 90 db in sealed enclosure or infinite baffle and not more than 96 db in the best other enclosures.
Don't be mistaken, better sensitivity would only mean it will end it's excursion sooner.
MJK's Goldwood H frames + OB are the best way to have everything and lots of it in the same time and they really give you another point of view over the JSB Orghan Works... Under some conditions they can do 18 hz @ -6 db 😱😀
I myself am struggling and cannot see any practical way to go near 20-25 hz... as a matter of fact I can't think of much if any non practical ways to do it with two per side 12 inch woofers with Fs of 25 hz that do 30-31 hz fs out of the box...
And even worse, big boxes have big front baffles that have big bsffle steps, that automatically transform your -6db point into a -12 db point if you don't crossover low enough. Even worse you can't use first order crossover just below baffle step beginning, because it will remain in the response, you have to consider that in the design too and that in most cases leaves you with inpedance peak in the crossover frequency.
You should look at Volt Loudspeakers Volt Loudspeakers - Ps18/300
Never heard one of those, but they are highly recomended.
And AE Speakers AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
Never heard one of those too. If one day I get the feeling that I have finally learned how to constuct a decent enclosure and cone speakers and these manufacturers still exist, I will probably do some DIY with woofer from one of those brands.
Another option is MJK mathcad OB or H frame sheet and modeling a H frame with one or more 15 inch AE drivers per side...
Wish you luck.
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