Yup.
And the "feel" is absolutely fantastic. Has an adjustable, spring-loaded ball/cog so you can set it to suit your taste. And the shaft is on a ball bearing so it's silky smooth with absolutely no play. Well worth the price in my opinion.
se
well, yes, I have heard only excellent comments. Besides that, Peter is a extremely kind person who brings a lot of support to diy community.
At the end of the day, I was trying to get inputs about how much noticeable is the transparency between the ladder and the series whose cost is not in direct proportion. The second task was about reliability related with more moving parts and elements involved.
Have you tried the AD ladder attenuator and compared to the AD series? I believe that there is indeed a difference, but maybe too negligible.
No, I didn't compare. No need. The ladder serves no real advantage and adds more points of failure. Since both are audibly transparent, there's no point, except as I've said before, from a purely philosophical point. And needlessly adding more points of failure isn't part of my philosophy.
se
Thanks for your insights and advice Steve.
Regards
anyway, exist both types of AD attenuators and maybe some purist that want to spend more money, despite having more risk, because they objectively heard an small improvement in transparency.
nor for me, unless I find a really noticeable sonic reward.
Regards
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, that's exactly what I was thinking keeps these mechanically switched attenuators so popular.
OTOH, if these were two black boxes and one had better performance and reliability ....
Nah, as an engineer I keep forgetting, this audio thing is about "the experience," and part of that experience is choosing a device because it has Golden Contacts or some such, and not strictly what gives the best sound reproduction.
That would be an excellent idea, but I can't think how to do that offhand. Is this possible for the average DIY'er? Are there switched attenuators that are sold as hermetically sealed?
I took a look and only found this passive preamp, but it's not the attenuator, that's hermetically sealed, it's only the three-way input select switch:
Passive 2-way and 3-way Attenuator/Selectors (passive pre-amp) | Audio Principe
so, in your experience with those devices, do you have a preference on the resistors arrangement used, series or ladder? or depends on the components?
I would love to see the results of the controlled listening tests that bore that out. The only way there could be an actual audible difference is if one of them were broken.
se
Beto1
Threads like this remind me of my biggest gripe with this board: the absence of ignore lists.
Anyway, here is what works for me.
In most of my builds i try to use Shallcos in preference to Elma, Kozmo, Daven and pretty much any other form of attenuation i have tried. Which, incidentally includes quite a few ICs and a few cmos switches. Unfortunately even Shallco are not perfect as the silver alloy forms sulfides which the self cleaning action of the wiper cannot really clean. Not to mention the central contact. So, at least once a year the Shallcos go for chemical cleaning which is messy and disruptive. Apparently the good old Davenoil is no longer available as if whales are more important than the protection of silver 🙂
So, my latest proto uses a 24-step shunt relay attenuator vs a 48-step ladder Shallco. The ladder is almost entirely populated with old stock Holcos, whereas the shunt uses Shinkoh in most positions at this time. Having listened to a few relays in the past i chose Pana TQ2 in preference to quite a few others including Clare mercury. I also find that the relay contacts are less audible when not energised, so the control is "inverted": all relays, but the one for the chosen volume level are energised.
Of course the relay attenuator sounds different but it seems i can live with its sound. The fact that it is maintenance free, can easily accommodate a remote and provides a visual indication of level closes the deal for me.
Threads like this remind me of my biggest gripe with this board: the absence of ignore lists.
Anyway, here is what works for me.
In most of my builds i try to use Shallcos in preference to Elma, Kozmo, Daven and pretty much any other form of attenuation i have tried. Which, incidentally includes quite a few ICs and a few cmos switches. Unfortunately even Shallco are not perfect as the silver alloy forms sulfides which the self cleaning action of the wiper cannot really clean. Not to mention the central contact. So, at least once a year the Shallcos go for chemical cleaning which is messy and disruptive. Apparently the good old Davenoil is no longer available as if whales are more important than the protection of silver 🙂
So, my latest proto uses a 24-step shunt relay attenuator vs a 48-step ladder Shallco. The ladder is almost entirely populated with old stock Holcos, whereas the shunt uses Shinkoh in most positions at this time. Having listened to a few relays in the past i chose Pana TQ2 in preference to quite a few others including Clare mercury. I also find that the relay contacts are less audible when not energised, so the control is "inverted": all relays, but the one for the chosen volume level are energised.
Of course the relay attenuator sounds different but it seems i can live with its sound. The fact that it is maintenance free, can easily accommodate a remote and provides a visual indication of level closes the deal for me.
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hello analog_sa,
regardless the maintenance free and the fact that you are comparing shunt vs ladder, but anyway, which one you consider more transparent from this two devices?
btw, I am realizing that shallco is by far the more recurrent name associated with quality.
A slight preference for the Shallco, but of course they do sound very different using different resistors. As for transparent, i honestly cannot say; the Holcos are very organic and calm, the tantalums have more air but slightly brittle highs... maybe the brittleness is partially due to the relays. Then, there is the pcb... vias have been enhanced with copper wires but ideally i should have used the tracks only for control signals and all signal wiring should have been raised above the board.
Last, but not least, the shunt attenuator provides an easy and cheap option for balanced operation which the ladder does not.
Ladder attenuator is perfectly usable as balanced attenuator if the ground connections are kept separate. Just like a standard pot can used as a balanced attenuator by connecting between the hot and cold lines.
You cannot pull this with a ladder, you are talking about a shunt. Or at least i cannot see it happening. Care to explain with a schematic?
🙂 There is zero electrical difference between ladder attenuator and a standard pot electrically, except the continuous track is broken into discrete steps.
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Once you get to audibly transparent (and both the series and ladder are), what's it matter which is "more audibly transparent"?
The other day upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away
—Huges Mearns
se
The other day upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away
—Huges Mearns
se
But you still need series resistors at the inputs, right? To utilise a ladder as a variable resistor appears extremely wasteful, but yes, you can do it. What kind of law it will follow and how many steps will be useful is anyone's guess.
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