Agree for the most part, but ideally need it for HT soundtracks that are catering to the younger crowd. The measured response show significant relatively wide BW VLF.
The low E on a contra-bass (bass viol, string bass) or electric bass has fundamental of 41.2 Hz.
The low C on a contra-bass with low C extension has fundamental of 32.7 Hz.
The low B on a five string electric bass has fundamental of 30.9 Hz.
The very lowest notes in a church organ can get way down there. But can any microphones faithfully capture a 10 Hz fundamental?
I don't think people 'hear' 20 Hz. It's more like you can feel it. Of course, so can your neighbors. Such low frequencies roll like thunder. Actually, exactly like thunder. Or earthquakes. You need to simulate an earthquake?
The low C on a contra-bass with low C extension has fundamental of 32.7 Hz.
The low B on a five string electric bass has fundamental of 30.9 Hz.
The very lowest notes in a church organ can get way down there. But can any microphones faithfully capture a 10 Hz fundamental?
I don't think people 'hear' 20 Hz. It's more like you can feel it. Of course, so can your neighbors. Such low frequencies roll like thunder. Actually, exactly like thunder. Or earthquakes. You need to simulate an earthquake?
When I built one sub that went to 12 hz, I noticed that some movies did have very low content, but almost any song didn't, so I made some my own 'remixes' of few songs that already had quite low content, by adding for example 15 hz harmonic material to a song, that had 30 hz sounds already in it. That way it sounds musical and is also cool to listen/feel to. I think there simply isn't many songs that have that kind of content because people don't have the equipment to play it back, and even if some did, the others would be in trouble with their regular woofers over excursion/power handling.
Having sub 25 hz content in some style of songs is really nice if you also sometimes enjoy bass heavy music in general like I for example do. It does feel more fulfilling, but you do have to crank it up or you won't feel the pressure variation properly.
Having sub 25 hz content in some style of songs is really nice if you also sometimes enjoy bass heavy music in general like I for example do. It does feel more fulfilling, but you do have to crank it up or you won't feel the pressure variation properly.
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If people go through all those RTA graphs to look at the peaks though, they'd see that almost all of it barely goes to 20hz let alone below 20hz. There are a few specific examples that only do it like once (Edge of Tomorrow 2014 is an example). The rest are mostly 30hz and a few dip to near 20hz a few times but that's it and it's not often.
Here's the voted 2021 film's RTA peak from that thread:
It has lots of 30hz and has generous 20hz stuff, but the 20hz stuff is -10db lower than the 30hz stuff. And under 20hz it falls off another -10db to nothing. And this is the community's voted #1 bass movie of 2021.
Very best,
I advance something to you:
I just listened to the play on Tidal, and I have some feedback on it. (In my secondary system, the JBL LE14C/80 liters, it is the same speaker that they used for the woofers in their commercial lines, it responds very well in bass)
1) I'm still not enthusiastic about the abusive use of the synthesizer.
2) I've heard much better things over the years, beyond Rick's idea of attributing a "musical personality" to each of the six wives, they are just that, personal interpretations.
3) There's a reason the vinyl is in "mint" condition, I've listened to it three or four times since I bought it.
4) I'm going to assure you that those basses are far inferior to what you get with other vinyls, it's not the mid/support that's to blame, there's not much bass there.
Here's an interesting graph of my own, from Wall-E the animation movie. It slams 30hz and has 20hz peaks that are almost at the same level as the 30hz stuff. It's not just once either, it happens quite a bit in the film. Plenty of "kids" movies like the Pixar stuff or similar have rather extended bass.
But as you can see here, after 19hz it drops rapidly. But still, the 20hz to 30hz data is within 4~5db of each other as peaks through this movie.
Overall, 20hz to 20khz covers virtually every title except truly just a handful.
Very best,
That's the thing, 20hz at 98db doesn't sound nearly as loud as something 40~60hz at higher SPL does. We are increasingly deaf the lower the frequency goes. You would need +10db or more to even begin to feel like it was slamming. Also not everyone can hear 20hz. I can hear it at very high SPL, and I can get 112~115db at 20hz in my room no problem, but I don't listen at that level. I can "feel" 20hz though, in that 105~110db range and that's where I listen at for a movie.
20hz doesn't slam though, it's a rumble, nearly inaudible, you feel it more than anything. Chest slam happens between 60~100hz. I have dual 12" drivers behind my seat for that job.
If you go through the graphs, most content has repeating 30hz as its nearly lowest area and it repeats often, so building to 30hz makes a lot of sense. There's plenty of newer content getting down to 20hz area, but it's at lower levels and way less common, so maybe once or twice in a film or more sometimes, depending on what it is. There are of course some that do it a lot, but they are rare exceptions.
Wall-E has a lot of it because of the space ships and equipment slams, they often will slam at rumble at 30hz and roll off down to 20hz so that it's not just a weird on/off sound and has a natural roll off.
Another one is Home (a cartoon with aliens). Lots of flying space ships and "big effects" that dig deep.
But most of these are already measured in that thread linked above; just look at the RTA peak data and focus on 30hz and below. It would be awesome if we could compile all that data into an excel sheet to see what % actually goes below 20hz with any meaningful level other than like 5 titles out of hundreds or thousands. It's that few.
Very best,
Just watched two movies and listened to a classic record.
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
A Quiet Place II
Everything Everywhere All At Once
I gathered peak RTA data from all three.
For a classic recording, DSotM is a pretty "bassy" classic 70's rock album. Most are not this bassy. You can see my primary peak from 35~38hz. But crazy enough, there's audible information rolling down from 30hz with natural instruments. Not super impactful, but it's there.
A Quiet Place II has lots of quiet moments then it bursts with tons of bass. Everything is artificially inflated with bass. Everything. Breathing has bass. Shotgun blasts have infrasonic bass artificially added. The monsters every move and breath has lots of bass. You can see with my peaks here just how much. Look at that 25~27hz peak hitting 114db and right below it a 22~23hz peak at 112db and even a peak at 18~19hz at 108db. 30hz stayed in that 105db range where I mostly listen (bass wise) for movies. All the 40hz data is mostly the gun fire and/or the attacks from the monsters and that 40hz slap was pretty impactful. I was watching the graph while watching the movie and the moments where it would drop into the 20's and below it was mostly reverb from an impact of some kind. Still, the bass in this movie hits hard from beginning to end and takes advantage of a system that can do 20~30hz range for sure, but it won't have much for anyone with a system that can go below 20hz.
Then that movie Everything Everywhere All At Once. Lots of dialog. Lots of martial fight scenes. Plenty of 28~40hz peaks from slaps/impacts/slams. But the transitions or multi-verse jumps which happen every other minute all had this huge 19~26hz peak that would happen, as you can see, hitting 112db here and all a solid 7~9db louder than any other bass frequency. It really added some omph to this kind of film. And as you can see, a system that only did 30hz and up would have completely had nothing during those multi-verse jumps every minute or other minute. But you can also see, nothing below 20hz really mattered much.
On a side note, I noticed in this film that every time there was a low tone there was another tone with it that was always 1 octave higher. It made for interesting effects with some of the transition scenes that each used 20hz and 40hz but the 40hz was a much lower level despite both happening at the same time. Was cool.
Almost everything is a product of its time of course. If the majority of playback systems are 20hz to 20khz then that's where 99.99999% of the effort and information will be. 30~40 years ago, the idea of 20hz in music or movies was not there because no one had systems that could do that. Heck there were not consumer level speakers 40+ years ago that could barely do 30hz like today in everyone's home affordably. Maybe in another 20~40 years it will be common to have 10hz+ capable systems and content that actually drops down to 10hz and all that. Even if your sub could do it, not all amps can really output enough power at 10hz to even move the driver. Most amps just lose output as the frequency drops, especially below 20hz.
Very best,
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
A Quiet Place II
Everything Everywhere All At Once
I gathered peak RTA data from all three.
For a classic recording, DSotM is a pretty "bassy" classic 70's rock album. Most are not this bassy. You can see my primary peak from 35~38hz. But crazy enough, there's audible information rolling down from 30hz with natural instruments. Not super impactful, but it's there.
A Quiet Place II has lots of quiet moments then it bursts with tons of bass. Everything is artificially inflated with bass. Everything. Breathing has bass. Shotgun blasts have infrasonic bass artificially added. The monsters every move and breath has lots of bass. You can see with my peaks here just how much. Look at that 25~27hz peak hitting 114db and right below it a 22~23hz peak at 112db and even a peak at 18~19hz at 108db. 30hz stayed in that 105db range where I mostly listen (bass wise) for movies. All the 40hz data is mostly the gun fire and/or the attacks from the monsters and that 40hz slap was pretty impactful. I was watching the graph while watching the movie and the moments where it would drop into the 20's and below it was mostly reverb from an impact of some kind. Still, the bass in this movie hits hard from beginning to end and takes advantage of a system that can do 20~30hz range for sure, but it won't have much for anyone with a system that can go below 20hz.
Then that movie Everything Everywhere All At Once. Lots of dialog. Lots of martial fight scenes. Plenty of 28~40hz peaks from slaps/impacts/slams. But the transitions or multi-verse jumps which happen every other minute all had this huge 19~26hz peak that would happen, as you can see, hitting 112db here and all a solid 7~9db louder than any other bass frequency. It really added some omph to this kind of film. And as you can see, a system that only did 30hz and up would have completely had nothing during those multi-verse jumps every minute or other minute. But you can also see, nothing below 20hz really mattered much.
On a side note, I noticed in this film that every time there was a low tone there was another tone with it that was always 1 octave higher. It made for interesting effects with some of the transition scenes that each used 20hz and 40hz but the 40hz was a much lower level despite both happening at the same time. Was cool.
Almost everything is a product of its time of course. If the majority of playback systems are 20hz to 20khz then that's where 99.99999% of the effort and information will be. 30~40 years ago, the idea of 20hz in music or movies was not there because no one had systems that could do that. Heck there were not consumer level speakers 40+ years ago that could barely do 30hz like today in everyone's home affordably. Maybe in another 20~40 years it will be common to have 10hz+ capable systems and content that actually drops down to 10hz and all that. Even if your sub could do it, not all amps can really output enough power at 10hz to even move the driver. Most amps just lose output as the frequency drops, especially below 20hz.
Very best,
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Hooray for many insights from MalVeauX - must be a human-factor psychologist.
RTAs very helpful - I've been posting truthy ones here for years when people make speculative claims. But no reliable way to translate RTAs of very low notes into degree of audibility for many reasons and ultimately, even depends on how loud you are playing at home.
But MalVeauX stated an observation relevant to human music perception but missed the causal explanation. "... every time there was a low tone there was another tone with it that was always 1 octave higher..." Not sure of the proper name, but there's "inserted bass" heard when the upper harmonic structure is present on the tone but not the fundamental. So a canny recording engineer would conjure up that structure, as MalVeauX notes, in order for listeners to experience the bass even if virtually nobody's speakers can play the fundamental.
Which is also why it is misleading to think a piano, for one example, is actually making much super-low freq on the bottom keys assigned to that freq - a lot of the bass we "hear" is constructed from the partials that the key does excite.
Recent posts in this thread shows there are wells of wisdom on this forum.
PS We watched Everything Everywhere All at Once last night. Great movie. Actually a variation of Dickens' Christmas Carol (it was Christmas Eve last night).
B.
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Haven't read this entire thread but have some observations.
(1) Low frequencies are not exclusively an ear (hearing) experience. Earthquakes are often below 1hz but we still feel them.
(2) The recordings with the lowest frequencies occur in old-skool hip-hop. The act of 'scratching' reduces all frequencies to zero (practically 10hz being the lowest frequency the stylus / tone arm responds to). As the turntable decelerates frequency is reduced accordingly. At 11 rpm, 40Hz becomes 10hz.
(1) Low frequencies are not exclusively an ear (hearing) experience. Earthquakes are often below 1hz but we still feel them.
(2) The recordings with the lowest frequencies occur in old-skool hip-hop. The act of 'scratching' reduces all frequencies to zero (practically 10hz being the lowest frequency the stylus / tone arm responds to). As the turntable decelerates frequency is reduced accordingly. At 11 rpm, 40Hz becomes 10hz.
If he enjoys creating resonances in every wall in his home while watching a movie he might be happy with that.
If the walls are brick then just the windows and ceiling will shake which might disappoint him.
hahahaha
In terms of acoustic instruments producing actual notes, you're correct.
However, transients occur with many instruments, and those can contain much wider bandwidths. I just pulled up the bass drum channel from a recent live/recorded session I provided sound for, and ran it through Audacity's spectrum analyser. A screenshot is attached. While that particular mic + drum combo had a strong 40Hz peak, there's content down into the single digits.
The mic in use was an AKG D12VR, which starts to roll off around 30Hz. A large-diaphragm condenser with an even-more-extended LF response would certainly show stronger sub-30Hz content. IIRC, the mixing desk's mic inputs are a few dB down at 10Hz as well.
Chris
Attachments
However, it takes a great big piano to actually play the fundamental tone of that note with any authority. Every baby grand to grand piano I've heard, you hear the harmonics much more than you hear the fundamental. That gives low notes on the piano that kind of piano-y texture, rather than the sine wave-like tone of an electric bass low note (gently plucked with a finger, not a plectrum).Beat me to it! Need to add the piano's 27.5 Hz low A too.
In that bass drum spectrum (kick drum?) -- 10Hz is -30db lower in amplitude than 40Hz. Would you hear or feel a difference if 10Hz was down another -10dB or so?
This is true of all resonant bass systems AFAIK and why I was taught to call them sub harmonics, so yes, we mostly just 'feel' them at best to add 'fullness' to its harmonic structure and the pioneers relied on the fact that Bell Labs had (presumably) proven that our brain will fill it in if too weak/completely lacking in the recording or a live musical instrument, so always recommend such a system, but for most its a too 'expensive' luxury, so just recommend tuning as low as practical to at least maybe get a fundamental 'feel' due to room/boundary gain with the upper/mid bass the powerful 'bass' same as prosound.
so yes, we mostly just 'feel' them at best to add 'fullness' to its harmonic structure and the pioneers relied on the fact that Bell Labs had (presumably) proven that our brain will fill it in if too weak/completely lacking in the recording or a live musical instrument, so always recommend such a system, but for most its a too 'expensive' luxury, so just recommend tuning as low as practical to at least maybe get a fundamental 'feel' due to room/boundary gain with the upper/mid bass the powerful 'bass' same as prosound.