Hi DIYers,
After a few difficult years with the further realization of how short life is, and that it can be forever changed in a day, I've been led to a place where I feel if I'm going to achieve life's little goals, now is the time. One goal is a dream speaker, a 3-way of the highest resolution and sound quality, along with good aesthetics, to rival $100,000 high-end speakers. This is not a "no-compromise" speaker, as every decision is a compromise in some manner. Speakers will be used for everything from orchestral, classical, acoustic, pop, movies, and video games in a residential system.
I implore people to recommend 15" woofers, and interesting 12” woofers are also considered, as there is no possibility of hearing these locally. I have mostly been looking at big radiating area, because I like the way they present recorded elements as room-filling and life sized. I also consider myself among a smaller number of listeners that prefer an over-damped, fully stuffed cabinet. My current speakers are Yamaha NS-1000M and Quad ESL-989 electrostatics, and I would like the future speaker to share the high-resolution traits these provide, but with more extension and sensitivity similar to the NS-1000M.
Some drivers I have modeled include a small number from from TAD, Acoustic Elegance, B&C, BMS, LaVoce, Eighteen Sound, Audio Technology.
The bass parameters can be changed as the physics require, but mostly center around the following:
After a few difficult years with the further realization of how short life is, and that it can be forever changed in a day, I've been led to a place where I feel if I'm going to achieve life's little goals, now is the time. One goal is a dream speaker, a 3-way of the highest resolution and sound quality, along with good aesthetics, to rival $100,000 high-end speakers. This is not a "no-compromise" speaker, as every decision is a compromise in some manner. Speakers will be used for everything from orchestral, classical, acoustic, pop, movies, and video games in a residential system.
I implore people to recommend 15" woofers, and interesting 12” woofers are also considered, as there is no possibility of hearing these locally. I have mostly been looking at big radiating area, because I like the way they present recorded elements as room-filling and life sized. I also consider myself among a smaller number of listeners that prefer an over-damped, fully stuffed cabinet. My current speakers are Yamaha NS-1000M and Quad ESL-989 electrostatics, and I would like the future speaker to share the high-resolution traits these provide, but with more extension and sensitivity similar to the NS-1000M.
Some drivers I have modeled include a small number from from TAD, Acoustic Elegance, B&C, BMS, LaVoce, Eighteen Sound, Audio Technology.
The bass parameters can be changed as the physics require, but mostly center around the following:
- Low-pass crossover point of 450Hz, depending on mid might be 250Hz.
- 8-Ohms nominal impedance.
- About 94dB sensitivity at 1W. System goal is +88dB after baffle step compensation.
- Aperiodic or Sealed enclosure, 100 liters target. 150L max, as it the bracing and curved wall thickness makes the speaker large.
- Enough extension to not need a subwoofer. This one is sometimes at odds with sensitivity and enclosure volume.
- Rolled or accordion suspension are welcome for longevity. Ribbed paper cones are great.
- 100W power input handling.
- Will be used with solid-state amplification.
I've designed multiple DIY speakers over the last 10 years and consider my myself very competent. If I wanted "a 3-way of the highest resolution and sound quality, along with good aesthetics, to rival $100,000 high-end speakers" I would look at reviewed DIY speakers by noted DIY designers. IMO it's the crossover development/tweaking that separates the great speakers from the very good. And I simply don't consider myself great in that area. It won't matter what drivers you choose if you also don't also excel in the crossover area. If the journey is more important than the destination then go for it. But if the destination is more important I would look at noted DIY designs.
4x Rythmik Audio SERVO 12” subs GR SW-12-16FR operated open-baffle up to 200 Hz. (per channel)
https://www.rythmikaudio.com/GR_drivers.html
https://gr-research.com/product/sw-12-16fr-servo-sub-woofer/
2x HX800XLR3
https://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html
-perhaps done as a ripole/SLOB for compactness:
https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_slob.pdf
https://www.rythmikaudio.com/GR_drivers.html
https://gr-research.com/product/sw-12-16fr-servo-sub-woofer/
2x HX800XLR3
https://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html
-perhaps done as a ripole/SLOB for compactness:
https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_slob.pdf
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Indeed, decades ago I happened to be familiar with the (relabeled) ~ 'ho-hum' inexpensive driver parts available to DIYers used in a big name $100 k + speaker system, but its XOs were both massively large in component size and number/expensive, turning a very mundane DIYer's floor model into an audio work of art.
Here is a link to something you might find interesting.
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/double-trouble-2/
I have a set of speakers with 8-inch woofers and they definitely fill the room. The amount of bass is amazing. They have taken away any desire to use something different.
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/dipole-and-open-baffle/diy-sunflowers
Mike
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/double-trouble-2/
I have a set of speakers with 8-inch woofers and they definitely fill the room. The amount of bass is amazing. They have taken away any desire to use something different.
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/dipole-and-open-baffle/diy-sunflowers
Mike
Wether life is short or long is irrelavent to building your dream speaker. From hx many diy people have boldly gone out spent lotts of money and failed. There are many variables in speaker building. As it has been said look to respected designers and start there. Good speaker designers are good for a reason.they understand all the variables and challenges. I doubt you do. Be wise take your time listen to lotts of speakers already built. Its very easy for your dream to flip into a nightmare.
Are you open to the idea of active crossovers with DSP filtering?
Just for point of reference, the ScanSpeak 32W Revelator series (12" woofers) have some of the lowest measured distortion I am aware of in a 12" or 15" woofer. The 32W4878T00 in a 100 liter sealed cabinet would give you an over damped alignment. These are very nice woofers, but rather expensive.
At half the price, the SB acoustics SB34NRXL75-8 has nearly as low distortion as the scanspeaks. It would also work well in a sealed box.
SB also makes a 15" driver, the SB42FHCL75. It has high sensitivity and low Fs, and would work well in a sealed box.
If you are open to the idea of DSP filtering, then there are several pro-audio 15" woofers that can be used in a sealed box. These are typically low Qts drivers with a relatively high Fs and high sensitivity. You use DSP to compensate for the natural 12 dB/octave rolloff below the Fb.
Test your speaker design abilities first by making a 3 way just like Yamaha NS 5000. Use the tweeter and midrange from 1000m and find a new bass capable 12" unit. Sensitivity, input power, resolution, bass, cabinet volume, is criteria already met within the drivers proposed. The only uncertainty is crossover design skills. Takes talent, practice, lots of passive parts to try out, simulation and measurements to achieve your goal.
Actually morden day speakers are reinventing the wheel by making the wooofer smaller but i doubt it work due to physics. And I think woofer performance below 400hz has almost done to death. Look at classic designers
atc, they have 15 inch woofer but their studio version replace it with two 12 inch ported . And Atc active speaker almost are the preferred one
if you look at gryphon speaker all their bass unit after 50hz are active only ....so it is an indication of physical limitations.
JBL and TAD has been playing around 15inch woofer their performance is up to 25 hz. Before they move to morden smaller size woofer but most of them failed to gain the realism of 15 inch and their speakers now are very hard to drive.
The last impressive 15 inch i heard was dynaudio ultimate consequences, it gives live performance voice without need of strong orchestra background but it is also very hard to drive as well
With your budget you could easily clone tad2401， some people want la scala but i think that is ridiculously big. And then you can spend budget on others such as tube amp and proper totl dac. If you go with my methode the compression drive can be replaced with twetter and dome mid which would give to morden days sound less emotion but more precise and extension. So you can just go to the simulation pspice keep playing the crossover network, or play active crossover network
i have been collecting gears for this particular project over 5 years ( raal ribbon, atc mid, yamaha mid, tad wooofer, and axi2050, 2 x yamaha b3) most of then are second hand . now i just need to complete after i can settle down.
atc, they have 15 inch woofer but their studio version replace it with two 12 inch ported . And Atc active speaker almost are the preferred one
if you look at gryphon speaker all their bass unit after 50hz are active only ....so it is an indication of physical limitations.
JBL and TAD has been playing around 15inch woofer their performance is up to 25 hz. Before they move to morden smaller size woofer but most of them failed to gain the realism of 15 inch and their speakers now are very hard to drive.
The last impressive 15 inch i heard was dynaudio ultimate consequences, it gives live performance voice without need of strong orchestra background but it is also very hard to drive as well
With your budget you could easily clone tad2401， some people want la scala but i think that is ridiculously big. And then you can spend budget on others such as tube amp and proper totl dac. If you go with my methode the compression drive can be replaced with twetter and dome mid which would give to morden days sound less emotion but more precise and extension. So you can just go to the simulation pspice keep playing the crossover network, or play active crossover network
i have been collecting gears for this particular project over 5 years ( raal ribbon, atc mid, yamaha mid, tad wooofer, and axi2050, 2 x yamaha b3) most of then are second hand . now i just need to complete after i can settle down.
For woofers, Vd matters.
For passively driven woofers, sensitivity matters.
So given the same amount of money spent, the same box volume, or the same F3/F10
consider
Twin 21" over single 24"
Twin 18" over single 21"
Twin 15" over single 18"
Twin 12" over a single 15"
Exhibit A:
Twin SB Acoustics SB34NXRL-8 in 4.25 cu ft BR cabinet.
Anechoic sensitivity of 98 dB/2.83V (black line)
After typical baffle step loss ((a cabinet of 13 3/4" width) sensitivity is 94dB/2.83V
With only 400W in 4 ohms- the maximum SPL is 120dB in 2pi.
Use twin 4" x 10" ports for an F3/F6/F10 of 38/33/28Hz:
I'd love to see a single 15" woofer in comparable cabinet size of similar performance...
For passively driven woofers, sensitivity matters.
So given the same amount of money spent, the same box volume, or the same F3/F10
consider
Twin 21" over single 24"
Twin 18" over single 21"
Twin 15" over single 18"
Twin 12" over a single 15"
Exhibit A:
Twin SB Acoustics SB34NXRL-8 in 4.25 cu ft BR cabinet.
Anechoic sensitivity of 98 dB/2.83V (black line)
After typical baffle step loss ((a cabinet of 13 3/4" width) sensitivity is 94dB/2.83V
With only 400W in 4 ohms- the maximum SPL is 120dB in 2pi.
Use twin 4" x 10" ports for an F3/F6/F10 of 38/33/28Hz:
I'd love to see a single 15" woofer in comparable cabinet size of similar performance...
Visaton PAW 38.
Smooth response and rollof, it can be used with very simple 1st order xo.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/ha...-8-ohm.html?___store=tlhp_en&___from_store=v2
Smooth response and rollof, it can be used with very simple 1st order xo.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/ha...-8-ohm.html?___store=tlhp_en&___from_store=v2
What you're after is a bit the holy grail for many, but hard to do physically. Closed to what you want, and only with dsp or an custom analog active crossover, is the Beyma SM-115N woofer in a 100L sealed. It rolls off fast without eq, but you got all the headroom and xmax to eq it flat to 30Hz untill very high volume (116dB or so).
That's a very good design, that's hard to dispute but I'd increase the box volume to 6 cubic feet, 170ltrs and lower tuning as appropriate. However, an AE TD15H, X or S might have lower distortion below 60hz. For $200 more a BMS 18 might beat all.
PS: Using PPSL could reduce distortion further.