I don’t think my above example meets the OP’s exact requirements; it just an example of what can be done with twin 12’s drivers.
- Low-pass crossover point of 450Hz, depending on mid might be 250Hz.
- 8-Ohms nominal impedance.
- About 94dB sensitivity at 1W. System goal is +88dB after baffle step compensation.
- Aperiodic or Sealed enclosure, 100 liters target. 150L max, as it the bracing and curved wall thickness makes the speaker large.
- Enough extension to not need a subwoofer. This one is sometimes at odds with sensitivity and enclosure volume.
The user’s room and listening preferences is paramount.
So half tick. Build it ported or block the port for sealed bass response.
Of course increasing the cabinet size to a larger vented box; using a larger driver like a 18” or a different alignment like a tapped horn, or your suggested push pull slot loaded cabinet may allow even even higher SPL.
But that moves even further away from OP’s desired attributes.
Sounds like a great project! I like the direction mostly because that's where I'm at. LOL
Once a box gets large, 150 plus ltrs, you'll have to pay more attention to internal nodes so consider keeping the bass to mid crossover lower, below 200hz. This is independent of woofer size or choice.
I'd start with the BMS 18s and see if that appeals to you. I've not read one complaint on these. It's a safe option. The SB 12s should be considered and there are low and higher Q versions so look at those. I'm an AE fanboy and have used them for about 13 years and would consider a BMS an upgrade to AE. I'm not in a rush to upgrade. YMMV A TAD 16 in oversized box would be great to hear.
JBL 10s and 12s are very, very hard to beat. Flat, smooth low distortion, why fight it. A person can waist more time than money thinking about it. Just buy a couple and try. Closed boxes from 100-200hz depending on model, vintage and size.
Mate midbass to a 1.5" driver in shallow 90 degree wave guide at the point of midbass narrowing. I still like aluminum diaphragms. Radian is well regarded YMMV. Older CDs with deep throats might not make well to modern shallow wave guides. The main concerns with 1.5 inch CDs is breakup above 12khz of so. Newer models are better at that. I don't hear the breakup with the JBL 2431 and that may be because the breakup dips in the frequency response, some models peak at breakup.
Once a box gets large, 150 plus ltrs, you'll have to pay more attention to internal nodes so consider keeping the bass to mid crossover lower, below 200hz. This is independent of woofer size or choice.
I'd start with the BMS 18s and see if that appeals to you. I've not read one complaint on these. It's a safe option. The SB 12s should be considered and there are low and higher Q versions so look at those. I'm an AE fanboy and have used them for about 13 years and would consider a BMS an upgrade to AE. I'm not in a rush to upgrade. YMMV A TAD 16 in oversized box would be great to hear.
JBL 10s and 12s are very, very hard to beat. Flat, smooth low distortion, why fight it. A person can waist more time than money thinking about it. Just buy a couple and try. Closed boxes from 100-200hz depending on model, vintage and size.
Mate midbass to a 1.5" driver in shallow 90 degree wave guide at the point of midbass narrowing. I still like aluminum diaphragms. Radian is well regarded YMMV. Older CDs with deep throats might not make well to modern shallow wave guides. The main concerns with 1.5 inch CDs is breakup above 12khz of so. Newer models are better at that. I don't hear the breakup with the JBL 2431 and that may be because the breakup dips in the frequency response, some models peak at breakup.
Winner winner chicken dinner!
Single Beyma SM-115/N in 100L sealed cabinet.
Anechoic sensitivity of 97 dB/2.83V (black line)
After typical baffle step loss (modelled by a cabinet of 17" width) 100Hz output with 2.83V input is just over 93dB (brown line)
Excursion limited SPL coincides with 100W in 8 ohms:
Worried it doesn't go deep enough?
Then add a Linkwitz Transform- you sacrifice some maximum SPL but get to deep enough to not need a subwoofer:
Ding ding ding! TKO!
Thanks @waxx
Meets all of OP's desired attributes.
Last edited:
If you like damped tight bass then you should consider sealed isobaric.That also reduces the effective cabinet size which is a consideration if you are using 15 inch woofers.[Vas is halved].
If you like the NS1000 you would probably also like the old Dynaudio C5 which sound a bit special and use isobaric loaded woofers and dome mids.They are extremely clean and tight sounding.
Stay away from long excursion subwoofer type drivers.Short excursion high sensitivity mid woofers sound much better .
If you like the NS1000 you would probably also like the old Dynaudio C5 which sound a bit special and use isobaric loaded woofers and dome mids.They are extremely clean and tight sounding.
Stay away from long excursion subwoofer type drivers.Short excursion high sensitivity mid woofers sound much better .
Hi scholl,
Kindest regards,
M
Do you have some simulation to justify the "oversized box"? I modeled a TAD (1601a) in a sealed enclosure and it does not appear that there is much to gain over about 90-110l. But, perhaps I am missing something?
Kindest regards,
M
I'd go active + passive hybrid crossovers with a base model pro mid-woofer or bass guitar driver.
Low cone mass, low Xmax, low max power, non-conductive VC former, cloth surrounds... And if you need more than 2-3mm of displacement, use a pair of woofers in a force cancelling arrangement.
The passive part of the XO uses an air cored inductor and nothing else. The active part does most of the actual filtering and EQ.
Low cone mass, low Xmax, low max power, non-conductive VC former, cloth surrounds... And if you need more than 2-3mm of displacement, use a pair of woofers in a force cancelling arrangement.
The passive part of the XO uses an air cored inductor and nothing else. The active part does most of the actual filtering and EQ.
JBL still uses and makes very high quality 15"s.
And not all they're speakers are very hard to drive.
Harman /JBL high end audio line is prioritized in Japan, as you can see from visiting they're japanese website.
They're 15"s designed for two ways have in recent times, shifted they're focus on the midband and directivity to match to the Horn/CD, and they're speakers are not tuned as low anymore either.
And they are tuned for a more overdamped bass , according to preference from the Japanese market.
Check the specs on 1500FE, 1501FE, 1500AL, 1501AL, 1400ND, etc.
The older style transducers with lower FS and softer suspensions, are different in some ways indeed.
Even the Everest is best with a sub reinforcing the low end, after all why do they sell subs to compliment?
TAD professional division does not make the TAD home audio/hifi series with the Beryllium coax, that is another division, that design partly Andre Jones's from his time there.
Neither the TAD 2401/02, 2251, 2252, 2404, are hard to drive.
Neither is the Kinoshitas and others using TAD pro drivers, really.
Pioneer Exclusive, TAD professional and TAD is 3 different divisions.
And TAD pro speakers are NLA, only some of the driver.
And actually all the way from the 60's EL-403/1601 until, 2003 when the 1601C was released they're woofers have remained rather consistent in that regard. Adding motor venting, vented Voice coil, vented motor structure, higher temp adhesives etc. as power requirements went up.
And still woofers with 500w power handling are not designed to be driven by 1w tube amps.
The Dynaudio uses 2x compound 12"s, and yes it is rated at 85db, and naturally it reaches lower then a 95 db 15" designed to couple with a CD at 600-900hz, and takes some power for high spl naturally.
That is the the consequence
of higher mass, lower FS,, longer xmax, heavy rubber suspensions etc.Except for that, first order xo's (according to Dynaudio) on tweeters crossed at 13,5k is bound to give cancellations, and dispersion issues vertically at the very least along with a non uniform directivity.
Low Qt, Low Vas, high Le. Not appealing at least to me. Might be good for some hit boxes.
In a previous build, I tried the AE TD15h because I wanted to go ported. I never did find a mid driver to go with the Neopro5i ribbon tweeter and eventually sold the woofers. Unless AE has changed something about their speakers, I feel confident one of the versions of the TD15 will work for you.
I have thought about building large towers again, but I will likely go with twin 10s instead of a single 15. It adds the option of going 3.5 way for BSC if a person wanted to try.
1. Thanks for your reply. I was trying to be brief and concise, but to answer your questions - Room is 8m wide by 7m, 3m ceilings, acoustic panels 60" tall by 20" wide, 3" thickness.
2. Target bass response is about F10 25Hz, low Q.
3. The tweeter and mid will depend on each other and the woofer, for a choosing adequate crossover points and meeting the target of a good power response. The RAAL 140-15DAM and Bliesma M74B-6 appear to be a good pair. The 210-10 is more challenging and I await some measurements requested from the company. The M142A might be an alternative and could be crossed lower to the woofer, but the tweeter crossover would also have to be lowered to maintain the desired horizontal power response.
4. Two main separate power amplifiers, 125W and a new 50W amplifier, solid state, class AB, very clean.
5. About the preference, I'd say the dynamic speaker for the overall livability aspects, including wider horizontal dispersion and more impactful bass. Both sound homogeneous; the stats have an almost perfect midrange presentation, and the moving coil speakers have wonderful midrange too, but also bass, horizontal treble dispersion and ease of placement among their qualities. This is why I'm looking to build a moving coil based speaker system rather than a pair of stats.
Thank you, this is about the end result. The planning and measuring stages are the longest. Some of my past experience was building time aligned, linear phase design, and I have some access to a local anechoic chamber, and this affords a bit extra measurement accuracy. I live in the country, so I can measure outside, as needed.
A two-way transmission line design of mine caused a stir at an audio show over a decade ago. The enclosure featured a small midwoofer loaded into a mass loaded transmission line, supported by bracing each 90mm. It was not a convenient first order electrical crossover, rather the midwoofer required much more attention and crossover complexity. The network included impedance compensation, a third-order electrical network using hand-wound multi-tap inductors and several notch filters to achieve the first-order acoustic slope. The sonics were on par and far smoother in the measured frequency domain that the Bowers & Wilkins 804S of the time.
I don't believe I would do another transmission line, though I prefer it to bass reflex in the bottom octaves.
Great woofer suggestions.
The system has underwent a lot of changes this year and has condensed, and I'm trying to avoid a stack of power amps and DSP. If good sensitivity, extension and acceptable form factor require the use of a pro amp with a biquad for the woofers, that will certainly be on the table.
I had considered something like that. For this build though, I'm aiming for a very modern aesthetic using today's tweeters and mids. The problem is I'm not familiar with all the brands and models of woofers available, and which ones suit the requirements.
JBL still uses and makes very high quality 15"s.
And not all they're speakers are very hard to drive.
Harman /JBL high end audio line is prioritized in Japan, as you can see from visiting they're japanese website.
They're 15"s designed for two ways have in recent times, shifted they're focus on the midband and directivity to match to the Horn/CD, and they're speakers are not tuned as low anymore either.
And they are tuned for a more overdamped bass , according to preference from the Japanese market.
Check the specs on 1500FE, 1501FE, 1500AL, 1501AL, 1400ND, etc.
The older style transducers with lower FS and softer suspensions, are different in some ways indeed.
Even the Everest is best with a sub reinforcing the low end, after all why do they sell subs to compliment?
TAD professional division does not make the TAD home audio/hifi series with the Beryllium coax, that is another division, that design partly Andre Jones's from his time there.
Neither the TAD 2401/02, 2251, 2252, 2404, are hard to drive.
Neither is the Kinoshitas and others using TAD pro drivers, really.
Pioneer Exclusive, TAD professional and TAD is 3 different divisions.
And TAD pro speakers are NLA, only some of the driver.
And actually all the way from the 60's EL-403/1601 until, 2003 when the 1601C was released they're woofers have remained rather consistent in that regard. Adding motor venting, vented Voice coil, vented motor structure, higher temp adhesives etc. as power requirements went up.
And still woofers with 500w power handling are not designed to be driven by 1w tube amps.
The Dynaudio uses 2x compound 12"s, and yes it is rated at 85db, and naturally it reaches lower then a 95 db 15" designed to couple with a CD at 600-900hz, and takes some power for high spl naturally.
That is the the consequence
Except for that, first order xo's (according to Dynaudio) on tweeters crossed at 13,5k is bound to give cancellations, and dispersion issues vertically at the very least along with a non uniform directivity.
Looks like the TAD 15” is still a stellar driver
I don’t know why people recommend BMS…
The 18N862 has a good balance of parameters 25hz Fs, .34 Qts, 320ltr Vas, .81 Le. Several independently done measurements show good consistency and low THD. What's not to like except the price? Also, F10 about 26hz in 170ltr box. 6db boost and room gain will get ya good results.
Last edited:
But that's a 18", not a 15" like this thread started with. Personally I would like to see those independent measurements, I haven't found one yet.
Btw, anyone knows a good sounding, high sensitivity 15" with Fs of 25-30 Hz that have Qts in the 0,32-0,35 range? Other than the ugly and pricey Volt or Acoustic Elegance with a dildo in its center.
