I don't know. You should heard one and make your own judgement. There is pro and cons.
The high sensibility is nice. But i definitely prefer closed.
The HF206 is a HF146 with a 2" Adapter and then measured on a 2" horn, so the low response is extended by the horn but also the high response has been altered by the adapter (change from 29 degrees to 30 degrees exit) as well as the throat of the horn it is on.
So I suppose the answer is both yes and no, because it has a 2" exit but it is not really a different driver underneath. It is similar to what I said before that the horn can extend the low end of the driver, the difficulty if using an off the shelf horn is that to go really low they are often 2" entry and the 1.4" ones don't tend to load as low as they are smaller.
Ultimately it is the combination of horn and driver together that matters so unless you are willing to try and design/build your own horn you will need to pick your poison of the commercial ones.
I think they would be perfect as multisub in my roomBut dont forget that I have 4 x TH1819 big (W58cm x D80cm x H125cm) with 4,5m horn path inside and with 2 x Faital 18XL1800 drivers in front room and 2 x BC 18SW115 drivers in back room to cover 19 to 110 Hz frequency.
I'm tempted to try the HF206.
Yes I want to try those tractrix style horns and I'm sure about that point. My last questiont (beside the mid/high CD) is the midbass.
Do you think that midbasshorn can work with a listening distance of 3-3,5m? Or are the drivers too far away from each other? Will those sound sources merge on the listening spot? The mid/high horn and the midbass horn don't radiate parallel. They point to the listening position. As you can see from the volvotreter plans the horn is made for a listening distance of ~3m.
Or should I go with a 15" woofer without horn? The distance between drivers would be only a little bit smaller.
Shame there isn't a HF206R
You can always pull the adapter off the front if you change your mind on the 1.4" so it is a fairly flexible option.A tractrix and a 2" CD will be very beamy in the treble. The sweet spot will be quite small but striving for more constant directivity is not just about this. The XT1464 is not a tractrix profile although it has a little of that in it. The Faital horns are much closer to a tractrix curve and it shows in the directivity graphs both manufacturers produce. I would look strongly at the 18 Sound XR2064C as a good choice to go with the HF206. Looking at the directivity index it would mate fairly well with a 15" woofer in the 500 to 800Hz range.
The listening distance and integration is more about the overall height of the speaker distance between tweeter and woofer vertically. At least 2 to 3 times the height of the speaker minimum, more is better. E.g. speaker is 1m tall, 2 to 3m minimum for reasonable integration between drivers.
A HF206, XR2064C and Faital 15PR400 would be a fairly simple system to get to sound good especially with active and DSP and would not break the bank. Certainly a good start and fairly close to what I plan myself so I think it's a good idea
Hi,
Never read something about the R version.
Thanks for all the recommendations. But with tractrix style horns I mean those round spherical horns which follow the tractrix curve (or not). I already got a 30cm horn and a 12cm horn. I want to make my own experience with that. Most of the time cd horns were preferred in forums. Of course they may have some advantages (and some disadvantages) but every horn has another sound. If I don't like the sound I can simply switch to a cd horn like the 18s you mentioned.
But it's important to choose some great drivers. ZivkoF mentioned HF10AK which is great. HF206 and 15PR400 looks good too. I can use them with different horns.
There is the HF146R. Does it become an 1" driver if you pull the adapter off or how does this work?Shame there isn't a HF206R
Never read something about the R version. Do you mean the overall height including the boxes/horns or just the driver distance? And what if I place the speakers on a subwoofer because the boxes of the mains are not that big. Do you include the subwoofer in the overall height.
Thanks for all the recommendations. But with tractrix style horns I mean those round spherical horns which follow the tractrix curve (or not). I already got a 30cm horn and a 12cm horn. I want to make my own experience with that. Most of the time cd horns were preferred in forums. Of course they may have some advantages (and some disadvantages) but every horn has another sound. If I don't like the sound I can simply switch to a cd horn like the 18s you mentioned.
But it's important to choose some great drivers. ZivkoF mentioned HF10AK which is great. HF206 and 15PR400 looks good too. I can use them with different horns.
No russion doll inside the HF146, that is as far as it goesThere is the HF146R. Does it become an 1" driver if you pull the adapter off or how does this work?
I bought the R version because the frequency and impedance response was better but there isn't a 2" version.For integration it is really the centre to centre distance between the drivers that is the most important figure, with most speakers that is close to the top and bottom of the cabinet so the rule of thumb relates to that height. Putting a speaker on another making it higher will make a difference as it will change the angle at which the drivers will be combining at your listening position. You can take account of that by designing the crossover to sum properly at that height and distance.
System design is what is important, not any individual component. Some great drivers will not work well together with other great drivers, so just buying a bunch of good things and putting them together is not guaranteed to get good results. Matching the driver to the horn is important, having a big difference between the exit angle of the CD and entrance angle of the horn can cause issues.
Whilst a spherical or tractrix horn may have increasing directivity with frequency it is still important to try and match the directivity of the horn and woofer at crossover in just the same way the phase slopes need to be aligned. If you don't align the directivity you get a power response hole or bump and if you don't align the phase you get a frequency response hole or bump. Neither of which makes for a good speaker.
If you are set on the horn to use choose a driver to match that horn. Then measure the combination to see what you have if someone else hasn't already done that then you can see what size of woofer will match that horn at your desired crossover frequency.
I told you, on the first few pages, in so many words, that you need to base your design around KA and desired listening distance, as well as, intended height of acoustic center....
If you had of looked into this you wouldn’t have these questions...
Gedlee has some the best writings on such topics. Do yourself (and us) a favor, and look up that information....please. You are designing a system for yourself, some of this stuff requires your personal touch in order to satisfy your personal situation but if you won’t learn the ideology and methodology.....It’s not overly complicated, the ideas nor the math and then after you learn it, you can be more vigilant and ask the questions that come next ��
Seems a harsh response to someone who is trying to understand a concept.
Odd as well as it was your comment about intending to listen to a 15" woofer and large waveguide at less than 1m that prompted me to suggest thinking about integration distance..... Maybe I misunderstood what you intended as well
Odd as well as it was your comment about intending to listen to a 15" woofer and large waveguide at less than 1m that prompted me to suggest thinking about integration distance..... Maybe I misunderstood what you intended as well
Well, camplo is right. I need to read and learn more about these things. At the moment I have this feeling that more and more things appear that I need to consider. And everybody has it's own approach.
But the reason I asked this specific question is that I didn't understand it because of the wording/formulation. That's why I marked it when quoting. This could be kind of new information for me. But it was rather my bad understanding in english. So far I always had a look on driver distances. But when fluid was talking about speaker height I was not sure what he means.
So if I take the bigger 70cm horn the distance between the middle of the drivers is 73cm (radiating parallel and with out covering of an horn). The listening distance of 3m is 4,1 times that. With the smaller horn the distance is 63cm and 3m are 4,7 times of that. So if understand you right fluid, this could work. But I don't know about KA of that midbass horn. Maybe there are other opinions?
Anyway I need to do some homework and then choose what I think will work.
But the reason I asked this specific question is that I didn't understand it because of the wording/formulation. That's why I marked it when quoting. This could be kind of new information for me. But it was rather my bad understanding in english. So far I always had a look on driver distances. But when fluid was talking about speaker height I was not sure what he means.
So if I take the bigger 70cm horn the distance between the middle of the drivers is 73cm (radiating parallel and with out covering of an horn). The listening distance of 3m is 4,1 times that. With the smaller horn the distance is 63cm and 3m are 4,7 times of that. So if understand you right fluid, this could work. But I don't know about KA of that midbass horn. Maybe there are other opinions?
Anyway I need to do some homework and then choose what I think will work.
Hi, dunno if it's the weeds lock down but :
Yesterday while I was looking the 1.4" 18thSound X1464 horn a strange idea came to me looking at its polarplot and directivity index...
What if this horn was flipped 90° to have at horizontaly listening the dirictivity index of the vertical one ?
The vertical index seems to show that the 2.5 k Hz to 3.5 k Hz is a little more pinched. That can easily gives a little notch in this area which is very confortable for ears if the horn is flipped 90° and toe in between 0° and 30° to the sweet spot for setup-ing the best result... so horn in a free cabinet above the 12" cabinet ?
Seems also to me that the horizontal index shows to more energy in the polar plot between 15° and 30° for the frequencies between 5k to 10k Hz which may cause listening fatigue cause the sibilance is around 6khz to 9 khz circa. The vertical plot has more controlled directivity here... a reason more to flip this X1464 horn 90 degrees on the front bafle ? Put the apex at ears heigth and voila ???
If the idea is valid- which I don't knw hence the questions- the half diameter to the edge is bigger is the horn was flipped 90°, increasing the center to center distance between it and a 12" driver.
Let's take the 12" Faital 12PR300 of the topic which has a not too bad Le value at 0.4 H /1K hz -for such driver- with the center to center "big" distance in mind. Is it feasible to XO around 800 hz to 1000 hz for instance ? The Faital 15" seems not confortable above 600 hz or ask a tricky weeding to pair these two !... Sealed but 0.505 Qtc for better matching with the horn transcient behavior : XO zone and also because of harmonics managed by the horn ?
Now staying on this scenario could we take the good 1" compression like the Faital H10AK that has this little confortable notch as well in the 2 K hz to 3 K hz and a good curve til 20 K hz... Could we marry it with the 1.4" 18thSound X1464 horn and anthroat adaptator 1" to 1.4" off the shelves or 3D print or wood made ?
It's also about to reduce the active EQ taps... and we are at home not in a Disco with PA drivers mostl thought for that purpose
regards, Diyiggy.
Yesterday while I was looking the 1.4" 18thSound X1464 horn a strange idea came to me looking at its polarplot and directivity index...
What if this horn was flipped 90° to have at horizontaly listening the dirictivity index of the vertical one ?
The vertical index seems to show that the 2.5 k Hz to 3.5 k Hz is a little more pinched. That can easily gives a little notch in this area which is very confortable for ears if the horn is flipped 90° and toe in between 0° and 30° to the sweet spot for setup-ing the best result...
so horn in a free cabinet above the 12" cabinet ?Seems also to me that the horizontal index shows to more energy in the polar plot between 15° and 30° for the frequencies between 5k to 10k Hz which may cause listening fatigue cause the sibilance is around 6khz to 9 khz circa. The vertical plot has more controlled directivity here... a reason more to flip this X1464 horn 90 degrees on the front bafle ? Put the apex at ears heigth and voila ???
If the idea is valid- which I don't knw hence the questions- the half diameter to the edge is bigger is the horn was flipped 90°, increasing the center to center distance between it and a 12" driver.
Let's take the 12" Faital 12PR300 of the topic which has a not too bad Le value at 0.4 H /1K hz -for such driver- with the center to center "big" distance in mind. Is it feasible to XO around 800 hz to 1000 hz for instance ? The Faital 15" seems not confortable above 600 hz or ask a tricky weeding to pair these two !
... Sealed but 0.505 Qtc for better matching with the horn transcient behavior : XO zone and also because of harmonics managed by the horn ?Now staying on this scenario could we take the good 1" compression like the Faital H10AK that has this little confortable notch as well in the 2 K hz to 3 K hz and a good curve til 20 K hz... Could we marry it with the 1.4" 18thSound X1464 horn and anthroat adaptator 1" to 1.4" off the shelves or 3D print or wood made ?
It's also about to reduce the active EQ taps... and we are at home not in a Disco with PA drivers mostl thought for that purpose
regards, Diyiggy.
Anybody who thinks they already know it all never really will
Every speaker is a compromise learning more helps to decide where to compromise for your tastes. Yes those sorts of distances will work nicely. I gave the rule of thumb based on height because it was not clear exactly which way you would be going, but driver centre to centre is a better way of looking at it.
KA is something that relates to direct radiating drivers and is less relevant to waveguides and horns. This page gives some information and is easy enough to understand
Speaker Off Axis: "Correct" Driver Diameters for Great Off Axis Response - Acoustic Frontiers
In a 3 way which includes subs you are really making at 2 way speaker so there is only one crossover outside the transition area to worry about. The goal in any speaker is to make that transition as smooth as possible in power response and as smooth as possible in phase and amplitude. Regardless of any other choice you make the above applies to all speakers. How close you can get depends again on the compromises you are willing to make.
Directivity is important because it is one of those things that cannot be fixed with EQ or DSP.
GedLee LLC - Directivity is the paper I'm pushing you to. It'll show you the concept and give you the equation for KA etc.
Hi,
Drumberg is learning ( a lot of things) and in a foreign language ( keep in mind we have not all grown with english as native) and this is not an easy task.
And don't forget we not all have the same level of understanding. Talking with a group of individuals which already master some issues and relation well is not easy when you discover something.
I can tell you he learn fast and concepts which are not easy to grasp (from my experience).
Camplo's suggestion about E.Geddes is an essential reading in my view Drumberg.
Fluid's explanations are spot on and clear to understand for us non native english spokers.
Diyiggy, it could be done this way but it'll have it's own set of issue.
Some JBL monitors use their horn this way for good reason ( rotated 90*). I can't remember the reference but user Rob own a pair of them.
I wonder if what you see is not the result of the 'pattern flip' which happen with horns which are not axisymetric (one of the reason E.Geddes developed his waveguide as being 'circular' which kill this effect).
Drumberg is learning ( a lot of things) and in a foreign language ( keep in mind we have not all grown with english as native) and this is not an easy task.
And don't forget we not all have the same level of understanding. Talking with a group of individuals which already master some issues and relation well is not easy when you discover something.
I can tell you he learn fast and concepts which are not easy to grasp (from my experience).
Camplo's suggestion about E.Geddes is an essential reading in my view Drumberg.
Fluid's explanations are spot on and clear to understand for us non native english spokers.
Diyiggy, it could be done this way but it'll have it's own set of issue.
Some JBL monitors use their horn this way for good reason ( rotated 90*). I can't remember the reference but user Rob own a pair of them.
I wonder if what you see is not the result of the 'pattern flip' which happen with horns which are not axisymetric (one of the reason E.Geddes developed his waveguide as being 'circular' which kill this effect).
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Surely, but I was speaking about the patern of this horn for the particular need of D. not about theory...look at the datasheet pdf. There is only 10% between V & H.
But the 1 cd in a 1.4 horn is certainly a bad idea.... The pinxhed patern at 2.5 to 3.5 k hz maybe not...dunno...would want to see the inputt of horns specialists...Despite I readed many time Earl Geddes papers, the math are above my simple head...but I know these brands use already the finish elements analysis from his work...
Edit, now it is known tractrix 90x40 or 60 give good subjective results at ears but D 's room is very tinny with 3 meter side walls spacing. I also spoke about the Jbl M2 patern as well, and synergy cabinet , trynergy from Bawslo for instance...the 12 inch may be keeped for the subs...
But the 1 cd in a 1.4 horn is certainly a bad idea.... The pinxhed patern at 2.5 to 3.5 k hz maybe not...dunno...would want to see the inputt of horns specialists...Despite I readed many time Earl Geddes papers, the math are above my simple head...but I know these brands use already the finish elements analysis from his work...
Edit, now it is known tractrix 90x40 or 60 give good subjective results at ears but D 's room is very tinny with 3 meter side walls spacing. I also spoke about the Jbl M2 patern as well, and synergy cabinet , trynergy from Bawslo for instance...the 12 inch may be keeped for the subs...
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It is the HF146 on a XT1464. Woofers are Beyma 15LX60v2. Volume approx 280 liters and tuned to 28-30Hz-ish.
Regards
Charles