Very good question
I would love to get an answer as well
Maybe the answer is that there's no difference at all
How about a slim tower above a midrange? A 10” midrange (ie, Delta 10A) in a 1 cubic foot reflex box. With a real subwoofer in the attic… out of sight, out of mind.
Again, small speakers for those micro towers aren’t all they are cracked up to be. Good high SPL ones limited to 300Hz-up disappeared from the market decades ago, in favor of things that “try” to get low.
A crossover at 300 Hz forbids to locate the mid to be far away from the driver(s) above it. The same goes to placing it on the floor because of the reflections. The advantages (visually) are doubtful at best there.
Well, you need a (efficient) fill driver somewhere. If you can’t put it on the floor you just have to live with the wonky response of those little Bose-esque “line arrays”. Or just live with SPL and low end limitations of soda can size speakers if that’s what’s wanted - just can’t have everything.
IMO, “PA speakers” start out about two cubic feet, and just go up from there. Bass bins start at 4. Well, i do have four one cubic foot 10” vocal wedges in my arsenal, but below about 120 Hz isn’t even wanted….
IMO, “PA speakers” start out about two cubic feet, and just go up from there. Bass bins start at 4. Well, i do have four one cubic foot 10” vocal wedges in my arsenal, but below about 120 Hz isn’t even wanted….
Imho there are two different approach in speakers design
To select the drivers first and then decide the crossover points considering drivers response
Or viceversa to decide the crossover points first and then select suitable drivers that will cover fine each range
Maybe both approaches could work just fine
To select the drivers first and then decide the crossover points considering drivers response
Or viceversa to decide the crossover points first and then select suitable drivers that will cover fine each range
Maybe both approaches could work just fine
You need to determine which dispersion angle you need, then you can select horns or drivers which cover the needed dispersion. Or you can use the crossover point and then look which driver size fits at that frequency. To develop a PA speaker you need also to know what SPL it has to reach and/or power is needed/available. For a mobile setup or with a generator, efficiency is important too. And finally, the truck space, if the size wasn't a major design point. To select drivers first is not the best approach.
The common home listening room is often not treated acoustically
Therefore to have a speaker with controlled and narrow dispersion could be very beneficial
Less secondary reflections out of phase with the direct emission
Regarding the SPLs my understanding is that a system designed and built to provide very high levels with low THD will have even lower THD at lower levels
Clearly the scale will be different
I guess that music peaks can reach 100dB ? then 100dB/3 meters with extremely low THD could be a requirement
Maybe an MTM above a bass box could be the best solution all taken into account
But which size for the M drivers ? 5, 6 or 8" ?
Therefore to have a speaker with controlled and narrow dispersion could be very beneficial
Less secondary reflections out of phase with the direct emission
Regarding the SPLs my understanding is that a system designed and built to provide very high levels with low THD will have even lower THD at lower levels
Clearly the scale will be different
I guess that music peaks can reach 100dB ? then 100dB/3 meters with extremely low THD could be a requirement
Maybe an MTM above a bass box could be the best solution all taken into account
But which size for the M drivers ? 5, 6 or 8" ?
Hi i do not understand You mean 8 12" units ?
fwiu low frequencies are almost omnidirectional There is nothing to avoid that
Instead for mids and highs i have seen that line arrays has 120° H and some 30° V
For me 90 and 30 would be just perfect to avoid reflections from side walls, floor and ceiling
My understanding is that we see a surface when it reflects sounds And actually putting sound absorbers on a wall has the effect of breaking down the wall
Reflections are the real evil for soundstage at least And i love soundstage
fwiu low frequencies are almost omnidirectional There is nothing to avoid that
Instead for mids and highs i have seen that line arrays has 120° H and some 30° V
For me 90 and 30 would be just perfect to avoid reflections from side walls, floor and ceiling
My understanding is that we see a surface when it reflects sounds And actually putting sound absorbers on a wall has the effect of breaking down the wall
Reflections are the real evil for soundstage at least And i love soundstage
Leaves out "slim towers", their horizontal dispersion is nearly 360 degrees below 500 Hz.
If you want controlled narrow dispersion, large horns are required.
Musical impulse or instantaneous peaks can exceed 125dB at 1 meter.
Snapping your fingers, or clapping hands can reach over 120dB SPL peaks at one meter.
As Tom Danley wrote: “The fact is, to reproduce even everyday sounds, requires far more than home stereo speakers can produce. I have B&K sound level meter that can capture instantaneous peaks, just throwing a teaspoon on to a tile floor, produced a peak over 130 dB from about 8 feet."
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-university/acoustical-characteristics-of-musical-instruments
Typical maximum sound pressure level of acoustic instruments at 3 meters:
115dB kick drum
110dB 80cm timpani
108dB snare drum
106dB trumpet
102dB piccolo flute
100dB grand piano
98dB saxophone
96dB flute
95dB violin
95dB double bass
92dB guitar (steel strings)
88dB guitar (nylon strings)
Those levels would be typical for "fast" readings, instantaneous or impulse peaks could be much higher.
Most 5, 6 or 8" speakers suitable for response from ~100-2000Hz won't have more than 5mm Xmax (linear excursion), where distortion reaches ~10%.
3 -4mm linear excursion is more common from small woofers.
You can get a quick idea of SPL capabilities for sealed enclosures using this calculator:
http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
Direct sound drops at 6dB per doubling of distance. Indoors, the reflected sound adds level, and if centered between the speakers up to 6dB gain can be expected for mono signals.
As a live sound reference, I used to use a pair of 3.2mm Xmax 8" MTM (4x8", two horn tweeters total) for each performer on stage, at 2 meters their level generally was adequate to keep most musicians happy, though the drummer would get a subwoofer in addition to the MTM pair one meter from their ear.
Art
Good post. I wanted just to add, a MTM beams vertically and at a close distance with the resulting lobing you can get very quickly out of the main beam with little change of height, even if that's very rarely the case - it's just easy to forget.
thank you sincerely for your kind and precious answer that has completely changed my wrong perception
It comes naturally to me to ask myself what people think and what they continue to hear And that is practically only the tip of the sonic iceberg
They don't know what reality is They are disconnected from it
I don't want to sound extremist but it's like that One creates an idea of reality that is not realistic
As I said this will completely change my approach
Just to say I was looking at a thread that reported distortion measurements of a pro driver for PA
Someone pointed out some distortions that were not exactly contained
Another with a more observant spirit pointed out that the level was 115 dB !!! i.e. a level at which many high end or traditional drivers have already exploded It's just a question of level in short
Now I'll print out and study your answer very carefully
Before saying other infamies
Thanks again and have a good day
gino
This forum never disappoints. I impulsively bought a very used, abused Anchor Audio XTR6000 rental speaker, and was awestruck by the clean SPL and QC. Never heard of Anchor, and to this day their old gear is enigmatic.
Regardless, I wrote a technical teardown essay on it; in here, somewhere.
That "happy mistake" presaged more mistakes, mostly happy,
but others here warned you what could happen to your sanity and finances, once one starts chasing pro audio gear for your homeroom. I am retired and chose to devote effort to such faff, just because of that ancient, orphaned, indefatigable Anchor wedding dance speaker cabinet.
Great thread, ya'll! If they say it cannot be done...Godspeed and do it anyway.
Very interesting and thank you for the valuable advice
I believe that the problem does not arise for rock and pop concert enthusiasts
If someone attends a concert, he certainly listens to a PA system
when he returns home it is natural that if he wants to have the same sensations he uses a PA system again
the situation may be different in a classical music concert where the instruments are not amplified
but in my opinion it is worth trying especially when you have large spaces to fill with sound
I believe that the problem does not arise for rock and pop concert enthusiasts
If someone attends a concert, he certainly listens to a PA system
when he returns home it is natural that if he wants to have the same sensations he uses a PA system again
the situation may be different in a classical music concert where the instruments are not amplified
but in my opinion it is worth trying especially when you have large spaces to fill with sound
LOL, I resemble this remark, except for the scaling down part. My current 2-channel man-loft system consists of an 18" commercial cinema sub in a homemade ported enclosure, a pair of Klipsch commercial Lascala bass cabinets with inexpensive aftermarket PA drivers, humongous EV midrange PA/cinema horns with 22lb compression drivers, and modest compression tweeters on waveguides, all DSP multiamped. All this for around $650USD (not a typo) out of pocket due to relentless and well-researched bargain-hunting and trading. A sensible audiophile friend recently auditioned it and commented that it would take about $50k to obtain similar SQ from a high end audio expo demo system. He mused about bringing a friend of his who has a $500k system over for a listen, but quickly concluded that he'd better not.
Hi thank you for the very valuable confirmation
I still think that audiophiles select component more with their eyes
They ate blind test because they can't see the tubes glow the nice woods the charming shapes of cabinet
I am sure they enjoy their systems more without music than playing them
But with movies there's no contest
PA is the most reasonable option
I still think that audiophiles select component more with their eyes
They ate blind test because they can't see the tubes glow the nice woods the charming shapes of cabinet
I am sure they enjoy their systems more without music than playing them
But with movies there's no contest
PA is the most reasonable option
I think you will be happy with that conclusion. But I recommend that you test it by exposing yourself to the kinds of systems you envision to be your goal. Perhaps a local art house cinema can provide a listening experience, especially if they will also show you their sound system visually or on paper for your reference. Local dealers in higher end PA-like home cinema systems such as JBL or Klipsch or European counterparts might also be able to demonstrate and give you some ideas. Also don't neglect used equipment that can often be bought at a comparatively low price. Even if you don't end up liking a piece, you can still learn from it and then resell it for a similar price or even perhaps a profit. As an example that may or may not reflect your situation in Italy, a few days ago I bought a pair of '80s vintage "commercial" 3-way sound reinforcement speakers in almost new condition that contain top quality professional drivers (including tweeters that have a cult following in Europe). Had they been JBLs, for example, they would have cost at least several hundred dollars each, but because they are Japanese and not audiophile icons I got them for $100 for the pair from a guy who was motivated to sell and for whom they were overkill. I can now play with them, learn from them, and either incorporate them into one of my systems or with patience and diligence resell them for a tidy profit. The learning is half the fun.
Working on these. FH-1’s with A55g/v2 compression mids, Klipsch Traktix horn tweeters and Crites crossovers.
Hi thank you very much
Very interesting
I have had already my bad luck with vintage equipment
But they were not professional units and that can matter
Usually quality pro equipment is designed and built to bear abuse and last long
One very famous brand was Cinemeccanica usually found in movie theaters
Big woofers and compression drivers