JohnnoG
the other panel is drying at the moment , so i made a mono recording of your panel , which is only held together with tape.
I will make comparisons with the glued exciter and see if there is a noticeable difference .
there is a lot of atmosphere lost in mono but it gives an idea of how the panel sounds.
steve.
the other panel is drying at the moment , so i made a mono recording of your panel , which is only held together with tape.
I will make comparisons with the glued exciter and see if there is a noticeable difference .
there is a lot of atmosphere lost in mono but it gives an idea of how the panel sounds.
steve.
Steve,
Since you been experimenting with EPS and PVA a lot it would be very interesting if you could get hold of some hide glue to test. Like I said I'm very surprised with the difference compared to PVA. Both the sound but most of all the sensitivity. Would be very interesting if it is repeatable or there is some other variable that is behind the big difference that I missed.
It also seems to hold the exciters well so far, and is very practical to work with due to the quick curing. Hopefully removal can be easy as well by carefully warming it up with a hairdryer/heatgun.
Will probably be a disaster outdoors though since it doesn't handle heat nor moisture well.
Since you been experimenting with EPS and PVA a lot it would be very interesting if you could get hold of some hide glue to test. Like I said I'm very surprised with the difference compared to PVA. Both the sound but most of all the sensitivity. Would be very interesting if it is repeatable or there is some other variable that is behind the big difference that I missed.
It also seems to hold the exciters well so far, and is very practical to work with due to the quick curing. Hopefully removal can be easy as well by carefully warming it up with a hairdryer/heatgun.
Will probably be a disaster outdoors though since it doesn't handle heat nor moisture well.
Hi Steve
The Tech Ingredients is the place I have seen the testing carried out,.
When I carried out the Mod' on the HD P3, there were comments made on another forum, when I made the success known, that claimed my corrective work was not as per the original, due to using air and my not controlling the fill pressure.
It was at this time that further discussions lead to the use of inert gas, and a friend owning the same Tweeters with the same defect, produced a chamber to charge the cavity to a known pressure.
Replacing air for inert gas has been a topic for some time.
The HD P3, is an exceptional Tweeter and worthy of the extra attention.
The Tech Ingredients is the place I have seen the testing carried out,.
When I carried out the Mod' on the HD P3, there were comments made on another forum, when I made the success known, that claimed my corrective work was not as per the original, due to using air and my not controlling the fill pressure.
It was at this time that further discussions lead to the use of inert gas, and a friend owning the same Tweeters with the same defect, produced a chamber to charge the cavity to a known pressure.
Replacing air for inert gas has been a topic for some time.
The HD P3, is an exceptional Tweeter and worthy of the extra attention.
Leob.
Using glue does increase the hf above about 10k depending on panel materials.
Pva is not rigid ,and in blobs it tends to stretch like chewing gum.
It sounds like the hide glue does not stretch ?
Can hide glue be thinned ?
When I was at school the woodwork teacher was always stirring his heated pot of glue, it was a bit of a ritual.
How similar to the heated hide glue is the liquid hide glue ?
I just had to pry off an exciter from a ply panel, the exciter would not come off without taking a layer of ply with it !
I then had to use a Stanley knife to cut off the pva and ply .
So pva is still very strong when used as a glue.
I'm just wondering about a thin coat of hide glue and how it would sound ?
I had a quick look on line and it is not cheap.
It takes a lot to open up my wallet😱
It's more like a bear trap 😂
Steve.
Using glue does increase the hf above about 10k depending on panel materials.
Pva is not rigid ,and in blobs it tends to stretch like chewing gum.
It sounds like the hide glue does not stretch ?
Can hide glue be thinned ?
When I was at school the woodwork teacher was always stirring his heated pot of glue, it was a bit of a ritual.
How similar to the heated hide glue is the liquid hide glue ?
I just had to pry off an exciter from a ply panel, the exciter would not come off without taking a layer of ply with it !
I then had to use a Stanley knife to cut off the pva and ply .
So pva is still very strong when used as a glue.
I'm just wondering about a thin coat of hide glue and how it would sound ?
I had a quick look on line and it is not cheap.
It takes a lot to open up my wallet😱
It's more like a bear trap 😂
Steve.
Yes, I think hide glue becomes a bit harder than PVA, and also forms a bond stronger than the actual wood.
I think the best is to buy granules., but haven't used the liquid. Liquid might be handy in some cases, but gets very expensive and a big advantage with hot glue is the quick drying as it cools, so no need to wait for next day until panel is ready. You simply warm it up in a water bath with the desired ratio of water to granules for the viscosity you want. 3:1 ratio of water and granules seems about right for me for coating panels.
Cost wise even hide glue (which is a usually a bit more expensive than bone glue) is cheaper then your typical PVA wood glue. I paid around €25 for 1 litre of granules, which gives 2.5 litres of glue (60:40 ratio of water/glue, recommended for normal gluing). That is about the same cost per litre as the cheapest possible wood glue I can find...if I want a brand name that is about 50% more costly.
Bone glue is similar to hide glue but not the same. Hide you can actually simply cook and get glue, but making bone glue is more recent process.
Hide glue seems to be preferred especially by instrument makers, and is not only used for gluing parts together, but also for treatment of soundboards in pianos.
If you are curious and cant source any there for a reasonable price, I could mail you some to test.
Found one seller in the UK. A little expensive compared to the one I bought here, but you don't have to get a whole litre, and it is starting at £2.95 for 25g:
https://www.cjstephenviolinsupplies...-1kg-sealed-uk-seller-fast-despatch-394-p.asp
Also ebay.co.uk have quite a few sellers.
https://www.cjstephenviolinsupplies...-1kg-sealed-uk-seller-fast-despatch-394-p.asp
Also ebay.co.uk have quite a few sellers.
I was unfamiliar with Hide Glue until yesterday, only Bone Glue was known from recollection.
I did a search and found a Violin Blog, it claimed the two glues are both acceptable to use and are used in conjunction on a build/renovation by the individual supplying info'.
The talk went on a little about how they are similar but different.
They are both pruduced as a by product from an animal.
They are both using collogen as the base ingredient to produce a glue.
They share a overlap of PH on the Scale, where the Bone Glue has a lower on the scale initial reading, and Hide Glue has the higher on the scale end reading.
Bone Glue has a increased acidity over Hide Glue, which makes Bone Glue less prone to dilute and has a increased dry time as the result.
Both Glues are used for different applications due to this dry time difference, and when dry, both are equal in bonding properties, but Bone Glue is the easier to dissolve when maintenance/renovation is undertaken.
Again this is a description of one person on a forum.
The so said, faster cure time of Hide Glue will most likely be the quality that is sought.
I did a search and found a Violin Blog, it claimed the two glues are both acceptable to use and are used in conjunction on a build/renovation by the individual supplying info'.
The talk went on a little about how they are similar but different.
They are both pruduced as a by product from an animal.
They are both using collogen as the base ingredient to produce a glue.
They share a overlap of PH on the Scale, where the Bone Glue has a lower on the scale initial reading, and Hide Glue has the higher on the scale end reading.
Bone Glue has a increased acidity over Hide Glue, which makes Bone Glue less prone to dilute and has a increased dry time as the result.
Both Glues are used for different applications due to this dry time difference, and when dry, both are equal in bonding properties, but Bone Glue is the easier to dissolve when maintenance/renovation is undertaken.
Again this is a description of one person on a forum.
The so said, faster cure time of Hide Glue will most likely be the quality that is sought.
Leob.
ever since I purchased my hdn8 exciters (£50) ,I decided not to pay money for experimenting, it can get very costly.
postage more than doubles the price on line.
but I do know a shop that might sell some hide glue ?
it is where I purchased my cascamite(another failure) .
I'll have a look.
Steve.
ever since I purchased my hdn8 exciters (£50) ,I decided not to pay money for experimenting, it can get very costly.
postage more than doubles the price on line.
but I do know a shop that might sell some hide glue ?
it is where I purchased my cascamite(another failure) .
I'll have a look.
Steve.
JohnnoG.
I presume you mean these.
https://www.wickes.co.uk
Sorry ,the link will not go to the product, but it is 2mm proplex, £3 for 4ft x 2ft.or £5.20 for 8ft x 4ft.
Steve.
I presume you mean these.
https://www.wickes.co.uk
Sorry ,the link will not go to the product, but it is 2mm proplex, £3 for 4ft x 2ft.or £5.20 for 8ft x 4ft.
Steve.
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JohnnoG.
I will make a recording of your two panels today, I have left the right side panel with the tape on ,to measure the two different responses.
From the first listen, it was obvious that this was a good sounding panel, with a wide and pretty flat frequency response.
Similar to the podium panels, I believe ,which was unexpected.
This panel has a lot of self damping I believe, but which does not dull the sound.
It is a heavy panel though , and I expect it will have some trouble with fine detail.
I'm not sure how easy this panel is going to be to get hold of in small quantities, which could make it expensive ?
Steve.
I will make a recording of your two panels today, I have left the right side panel with the tape on ,to measure the two different responses.
From the first listen, it was obvious that this was a good sounding panel, with a wide and pretty flat frequency response.
Similar to the podium panels, I believe ,which was unexpected.
This panel has a lot of self damping I believe, but which does not dull the sound.
It is a heavy panel though , and I expect it will have some trouble with fine detail.
I'm not sure how easy this panel is going to be to get hold of in small quantities, which could make it expensive ?
Steve.
I am very familiar with Correx/Cordek I am usually responsible for ordering it by the Pallet Load.
Firstly it deteriorates quite quickly when exposed to UV as an external used material, we call it turning to sugar, as it becomes like a granular dust collecting on surrounding materials, it is also quite flexible and will be quite comparable to a Corrugated Cardboard in the way it can be manipulated as a material.
I have been looking for a ribbed material with a lower weight and qualities built in to resist a impact, I am working on the basis this will offer a increased rigidity to a Correx Sheet and substantially reduce flexion.
The link is one that surfaced after a search, but hands on evaluation will be the best method to select the Panel.
https://www.timothywood.co.uk/produ...protection-sheets?_pos=1&_sid=fe51ea62a&_ss=r
I have spent a day on the Coast yesterday and used some of the time working out a method to produce a rear chamber that can contain pressurization of Air and hopefully if proven to work, Helium can be used.
One other consideration that could be adopted with the Ribbed Panel being tested, would be to orientate the Ribs on both the Horizontal and Vertical to see if a difference can be detected.
Firstly it deteriorates quite quickly when exposed to UV as an external used material, we call it turning to sugar, as it becomes like a granular dust collecting on surrounding materials, it is also quite flexible and will be quite comparable to a Corrugated Cardboard in the way it can be manipulated as a material.
I have been looking for a ribbed material with a lower weight and qualities built in to resist a impact, I am working on the basis this will offer a increased rigidity to a Correx Sheet and substantially reduce flexion.
The link is one that surfaced after a search, but hands on evaluation will be the best method to select the Panel.
https://www.timothywood.co.uk/produ...protection-sheets?_pos=1&_sid=fe51ea62a&_ss=r
I have spent a day on the Coast yesterday and used some of the time working out a method to produce a rear chamber that can contain pressurization of Air and hopefully if proven to work, Helium can be used.
One other consideration that could be adopted with the Ribbed Panel being tested, would be to orientate the Ribs on both the Horizontal and Vertical to see if a difference can be detected.
Hello JohnnoG, Hello Steve (@spedge )
I haven't followed very carefully your last exchanges as I was not really interrested in a material heavier than poplar plywood. Here I read a possible alternative to a 260g/m² material. Could you post more information about it to share the characteristics ? Link, name, brand, material...
Thank you
Christian
PS : forget this post. The answer is just before (arrived in the time I was typing...) Sorry
I have my new phone now, and have loaded a few recording apps.
The microphones in my new Samsung A12 which seems to have a much wider response, which might be why it is picking up strange noises that are not that noticeable in my listening room ?
JohnnoG.
are you intending to put a panel in a box ? And not using the rear wave ?
Steve.
The microphones in my new Samsung A12 which seems to have a much wider response, which might be why it is picking up strange noises that are not that noticeable in my listening room ?
JohnnoG.
are you intending to put a panel in a box ? And not using the rear wave ?
Steve.
Hi Steve
When it comes to anything that requires a Technical understanding such as a Speaker Design, I am quite wanting in the knowledge of the basics, and am totally dependant on others to do the math and the EE.
I do structures and like to see how materials can be used in a variety of situations.
When I am making comments as received, they are pretty much ad lib's on other methods I have pondered and will be a unknown.
My whole intention is to follow all the design concepts that are outlined within this thread to achieve a working Panel.
When all is done and I am confident in the function of the finished work, at some stage, as I am in the Company of experimenters,
I might produce an alternative method and add a pressure behind the panel, for experimental purposes only.
If my ideas are pretty much not usable due to my not understanding the physics, I am happy to shelve such endeavours if there is strong suggestion that the method will not work or be fruitless.
At present I am pleased to have offered the material under test, and help find a lighter version, if the test outcome leans toward the lighter material being a worthwhile material to test further.
The secondary thought, is that a very lightweight film material, such as plasticised foil will serve as the airtight rear panel, sort of the reverse positioning of the HD 3P Tweeter Foil.
The Depth of the Cavity to be charged and have a increased resistance? could easily be extended from approx' 5mm to a depth of 200mm or more.
The Charge Intake method would be to repurpose a Bicycle Inner Tube Valve, the pressure intake can be measured in PSI.
As said, I am quite wanting in the science area, so could be of to a bad start with such ideas.
When it comes to anything that requires a Technical understanding such as a Speaker Design, I am quite wanting in the knowledge of the basics, and am totally dependant on others to do the math and the EE.
I do structures and like to see how materials can be used in a variety of situations.
When I am making comments as received, they are pretty much ad lib's on other methods I have pondered and will be a unknown.
My whole intention is to follow all the design concepts that are outlined within this thread to achieve a working Panel.
When all is done and I am confident in the function of the finished work, at some stage, as I am in the Company of experimenters,
I might produce an alternative method and add a pressure behind the panel, for experimental purposes only.
If my ideas are pretty much not usable due to my not understanding the physics, I am happy to shelve such endeavours if there is strong suggestion that the method will not work or be fruitless.
At present I am pleased to have offered the material under test, and help find a lighter version, if the test outcome leans toward the lighter material being a worthwhile material to test further.
The secondary thought, is that a very lightweight film material, such as plasticised foil will serve as the airtight rear panel, sort of the reverse positioning of the HD 3P Tweeter Foil.
The Depth of the Cavity to be charged and have a increased resistance? could easily be extended from approx' 5mm to a depth of 200mm or more.
The Charge Intake method would be to repurpose a Bicycle Inner Tube Valve, the pressure intake can be measured in PSI.
As said, I am quite wanting in the science area, so could be of to a bad start with such ideas.
johnnoG
I have made several recordings trying to get used to my recording apps, still not quite right yet, I think ?
hindered by google voice on my computer , which is set off by the flute recording !!
it did not cut into this one , thats the only reason I chose it.
but anyway, hope you like the recording of the two panels, phone microphone position about 70cm distance.
steve.
I have made several recordings trying to get used to my recording apps, still not quite right yet, I think ?
hindered by google voice on my computer , which is set off by the flute recording !!
it did not cut into this one , thats the only reason I chose it.
but anyway, hope you like the recording of the two panels, phone microphone position about 70cm distance.
steve.