I like my zamp v3 45wpc uses bipolar transistors in a common emitter configuration. Others have noted it produces powerful bass which helps with these little FR's. ASR says it has power output issues but IMHO, not with these types of speakers. Any suggestions?
No, they are not good for a lot of music. That is the problem.
How do you think it?
No, they are not good for a lot of music. That is the problem.
How do you think it?
There are many things you can do for BSC. If you add a woofer that is near 6dB more sensitive then you can cross it in at the baffle frequency and it's done.
Low dB listening will not give you the perception of lower bass. 🙂
Bringing closer to the can wall help, but in your case you are saying negligible. Also arbitrarily changing the port length (and affecting the tuning) is not likely to produce the most consistent results - a bump (gain) in certain bass frequency range can result in a dip in another bass frequency range. And it might mess up the overall sound as well.
Had a quick glance at the ASR review of the Parasound Zamp V3 - well plenty of issues found... but will come to that later.
- You mention that " it produces powerful bass which helps with these little FR's" and "they are not good for a lot of music" - what speakers are you using now?
- You have asked for a suggestion on "best option for 4.5" driver" - any particular reason you have this size in mind?
- My earlier question on genres - anything you can share on that. A small single driver speaker is likely to fall short on more demanding genres, whatever the amp.
I'd like to use the same woofer for consistency. How do I calculate the baffle frequency? I'm curious enough to try it, have the extra drivers, and simple to make a new front baffle. Just need to calculate the right cutoff.
Very true. It will appear less bass but as Davor pointed out, Increasing LF extension will not exceed the power handling capability of the driver if volumes are kept low.
- I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Zamp and what you might recommend.
- Today it is the Tang-Band W4-616 spec'd in an earlier post here, You can find it.
- Yes, 4.5" is optimum size for midrange @1,000Hz. Then 3", then 10".Do you like others?
- Yes, anything with bass falls short. Sounds like normal speaker with vocals but add in full range instruments and sound is thin. Agreed, no amp will cure that. I think the zamp has enough current the drive a 4.5" correctly.
How about the Kartesian Kapella_4 build? See the end of the datasheet: https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/speaker-kartesian-wib120-vhe-8-ohm-120-mm.html
Another idea you could try could be an active bass 'enhancer'.
Basically you start with a line-level 1st order crossover to split the signal into bass and treble at, say, 300Hz.
2, the bass part then gets distorted with a soft saturator to introduce some low harmonics while limiting driver excursion.
3, recombine bass and treble, preserving relative phase.
This is still on my (huge) to-do list, so I can't confirm yet how well it works or give more details, but the thinking is that with a small driver it would be possible to increase the apparent bass levels, while leaving more overhead for treble so that it doesn't get distorted by IMD.
For instance, if the Xmax is 3mm, a simple bass boost would easily use up all of the available overhead if bass output reaches +/-3mm. But the (bass-only) saturator could limit that to +/-2mm, leaving more overhead for undistorted treble output on top. It is likely that commercially available bluetooth boom boxes use proprietary versions of such filters.
Basically you start with a line-level 1st order crossover to split the signal into bass and treble at, say, 300Hz.
2, the bass part then gets distorted with a soft saturator to introduce some low harmonics while limiting driver excursion.
3, recombine bass and treble, preserving relative phase.
This is still on my (huge) to-do list, so I can't confirm yet how well it works or give more details, but the thinking is that with a small driver it would be possible to increase the apparent bass levels, while leaving more overhead for treble so that it doesn't get distorted by IMD.
For instance, if the Xmax is 3mm, a simple bass boost would easily use up all of the available overhead if bass output reaches +/-3mm. But the (bass-only) saturator could limit that to +/-2mm, leaving more overhead for undistorted treble output on top. It is likely that commercially available bluetooth boom boxes use proprietary versions of such filters.
4" is just to small to get real bass that low out of it. The smallest i know are all 5.25" or larger. The Mark Auido CHN110 can get very low in a Sibelius like MLTL (i did it), The alpair 10.3 probally would also do what you want. The Pencil designs with these drivers should give you what you want. But 4" is just to small to move the air needed for such a low response, even on low level.
You can do that, but its not that simple.
Bass rolloff starts around 200Hz and amount of boost required is more than 6dB which 2 drivers in parallel can give.
Passive 100Hz cut will be hard beacuse its close to drivers impedance peak.
Yes, if you want flat response.
I recommend you to cut the second driver higher, 1st order around 400Hz. Add a simple 3,9mH inductor in series. Nothing fancy, ferrite core is ok.
That should cover BSC.
For additional bass boost use DSP.
I made the sim to show the effect of 2 drivers working together to 400Hz. They share the same box, 7 Liters, Fb=42Hz.
I don't have measuring files for W4-616SA so its made with calculated response.
Bass rolloff below 200Hz is clearly visible, as in TB datasheet.
You'll still need good amount of active bass boost. To reduce that a bit, I recommend you to raise the Fb=49Hz (0,7xFs).
Than add LF boost shelf 2nd order, Q=0,7 , centered at 100Hz plus high-pass 2nd order at 49Hz.
Together, that gives 9dB of active boost with flat response and -6dB at 42Hz.
Drivers data don't show Xmax. Assuming 1,75mm max SPL is 90dB.
waxx,
Some good recommendations there with the larger and more low frequency capable MA drivers.
The MA drivers do a decent job in digging low; but when it comes to "slam" or "punch", my listening experience got transformed when I went from single-driver wide-band speakers to a 2 way with Scanspeak Revelator 5.25"; there was much more bass, and harder hitting bass too. Many tracks that sounded thin or bright sounded much fuller with the new speakers, with the same amp and source. Then I had another "aha" when I made FAST speaker with an 8" Dayton RS225 doing the bass duties - the bass was more effortless than my previous speakers.
If I recall correctly, you are running your Alpair 10.3 as a FAST with low frequency support from big woofers - bigger drivers moving more air, low SPL or high SPL. 🙂
To the OP, long story short, having cone area is important. Single driver speakers with no BSC or filtering can sound quite magical with certain music, but don't do that well with rock or metal and more complex music. A 5.25" Alpair or Pluvia driver can give you more bass output in the right enclosure, and with some BSC /bass boost is likely to sound fuller/more balanced if run in single driver mode. For more bass, go FAST or multi-way - and of course take into consideration BSC and other factors when doing so - a mismatched combination will not sound good.
Some good recommendations there with the larger and more low frequency capable MA drivers.
The MA drivers do a decent job in digging low; but when it comes to "slam" or "punch", my listening experience got transformed when I went from single-driver wide-band speakers to a 2 way with Scanspeak Revelator 5.25"; there was much more bass, and harder hitting bass too. Many tracks that sounded thin or bright sounded much fuller with the new speakers, with the same amp and source. Then I had another "aha" when I made FAST speaker with an 8" Dayton RS225 doing the bass duties - the bass was more effortless than my previous speakers.
If I recall correctly, you are running your Alpair 10.3 as a FAST with low frequency support from big woofers - bigger drivers moving more air, low SPL or high SPL. 🙂
To the OP, long story short, having cone area is important. Single driver speakers with no BSC or filtering can sound quite magical with certain music, but don't do that well with rock or metal and more complex music. A 5.25" Alpair or Pluvia driver can give you more bass output in the right enclosure, and with some BSC /bass boost is likely to sound fuller/more balanced if run in single driver mode. For more bass, go FAST or multi-way - and of course take into consideration BSC and other factors when doing so - a mismatched combination will not sound good.
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With passive correction you have to leave the bass and attenuate the rest of the spectrum.
That lowers system efficiency, so you have to turn the volume up to compensate.
And since bass is not attenuated it will work harder with more cone movement.
Active or passive, you can't get more bass without moving more air, so driver distortion issue is same.
I would stick to DSP.
7" wide x 12" high
Sounds interesting but not too keen on adding distortion. I did not like the CSSFR-125 and maybe the higher bass distortion (in this case from larger Xmax?) is why?
CSS-FR125SR harmonic distortion
First, thanks so much for running this data. It saves me a LOT of time and effort. I see using two drivers only give 5dB more bass and still needs a lot of correction.
The W4-616 Xmax is 3mm I believe it is one way, according to parts express staff, so 6mm peak to peak. Yes, this driver starts to die at 200Hz. Here is the data sheet:
Tang-Band W4-616
As waxx pointed out, 4" is just too small. Would your simulation show any improvement with either of these?
Tang-Band W4-1879
Tang-Band w5-2143
Here are the Mark Audio waxx suggested:
Mark Audio CHN-110 6.75" full range
Markaudio Alpair-10M Gold 6" Full Range Gen 3
Yes, nice driver and looks very well thought out. The HF remind me of a full range floorstander using Fostex F120A (5" poly cone) or maybe was the F200A (8" poly cone). I remember thinking how rough the HF was and how a $10 tweeter would do much better.
Can't say if any other similar driver is better what with smoothing and all.......
That would do the trick. IME, the 35-38mm voice coil that they use takes tons of power to sound right and do not come to life unless played louder. I think Dynaudio may be similar. There was a review in Stereophile a while back and reviewer noted the same thing. I like to stick to 26mm VC diameter.
Yes, the other reason is, subjectively speaking, compared to a Seas 4", the Tang-Band W5-704 / W5-704 improved bass by 10% but reduced midrange quality of sound by 20%. So overall I thought it was a loss. There could have been other factors involved such as poly cone vs. Nextel paper cone.
Other interesting thing was using the W4-616 in a .10 ft3 cabinet vs .18 ft3 cabinet. It was night and day. The smaller cabinet sounded musical. Like the Devore O/96 style of sound. Switchg to the .18 ft3 sound became an analytical studio monitor. Clear, more bass and clinical, cold sounding. Just my subjective impression, YMMV.
Dave made some rec's back a bit in this thread, regarding the Alpair 10p/10.3. IMHO either of those drivers would satisfy your requirements for decent bass output @70dB. Choose either a A10.3 Pensil box, or a 10.3/10p FHXL. I don't see any reason for going 2-way at this listening level. Both of the Alpairs will play much louder than your requirements without losing their composure.
jeff
jeff
I do have that fast (with a Scanspeak 26W woofer), but i also have a pair in a 17.9L bookshelf that hits 45Hz (F3) on it's own, and that can also do decent bass, only not that low and loud as the Fast that is tuned to 30Hz F3 and more aimed at big spaces. Included in my post is a picture on how i use it in my office (now powered with a tube amp, but i used many solid state amps also on it) and the plan.
Attachments
A good suggestion.
I did some simulations with chuck55's dimensions, suggesting similar. There are many variables, so keeping it generic for now.
The first image is the approximate baffle response.
Do those need any correction? Frugel-Horn XL
They do not give a FR curve. I would like to give them a listen.
AllenB. That graph looks much better than Davor's. Just inductor and resistor x-over at 400Hz and it would be that flat to 50Hz with 2 Tang-Band W4-616? Am I missing something?
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The horn provides gain, which you can adjust with both placement and damping (below the driver)
dave
dave