On the [Pioneer] power rating; I'm from the school of "the First Watt counts the most", and go with response as more important information. On a related note, the power rating is generally a consequence of the voice coil materials / heat dissipation ability (aluminum former? / vented pole? / # VC layers?). If you exceed the rating, you run a genuine risk of burning out the VC. 
Generally you won't do this with music since even 96dB is pretty loud and 100W will theoretically take it to 116 dB. I think this does more for transients than for steady listening. Of course it does enter heavily into the equation if playing large venues or outdoors...
High frequency use depends a bit on your room/positioning goals. Off-axis response diminishes with larger drivers at higher frequency, depending in part upon cone stiffness. Most paper cones are not too bad among the conventional materials (polypropylene not quite as stiff). At a high enough frequency relative to stiffness, the cone will go out of phase with itself in resonsant modes. This will make the soundstage bomb out pretty bad. The weight of the cone+coil+former will also simply make the driver less able to respond at hi freq. (like holding a brick in each hand and trying to do Tae Bo). With the MI-type driver (low Xmax) at high SPL, the compressive out-of-gap distortion will limit high frequency response as well, since responding to forcible bass will bring the coil out of its "wheelhouse"...
My personal opinion is don't exceed about 800Hz with a 10-inch driver, and that's pushing it; my T-S program tells me a typical 10-inch driver reaches piston transition at about 525Hz (where the cone circumference is about equal to 1/2 wavelength, rule-of-thumb, above which [as I understand it at least] it's output is more like beaming; you can perceive it in the soundstage and it loses off-axis dispersion (someone please correct me here on specifics if necessary)). Their statement of 3kHz response bandwidth might mean the coil velocity is at full amplitude, or maybe that some sound was detectable dead-on-axis. It does not mean the cone is moving uniformly or sounding good.
I haven't seen many 2-way systems on a 10" woofer. You may want to consider going 3-way (say maybe a low-Q 4.5" mid-bass), and XO at 500Hz&3-4kHz. If that is not an option, you're certainly safe enough where you suggest, but you may not enjoy it to the max (my goal is always to have the drivers' locations be forgotten if you close your eyes while listening). You will thus be greatly in control of SQ yourself in facing these choices. Any driver can sound great if bandwidth is applied appropriately.
My apologies for my rambling!!
Generally you won't do this with music since even 96dB is pretty loud and 100W will theoretically take it to 116 dB. I think this does more for transients than for steady listening. Of course it does enter heavily into the equation if playing large venues or outdoors...High frequency use depends a bit on your room/positioning goals. Off-axis response diminishes with larger drivers at higher frequency, depending in part upon cone stiffness. Most paper cones are not too bad among the conventional materials (polypropylene not quite as stiff). At a high enough frequency relative to stiffness, the cone will go out of phase with itself in resonsant modes. This will make the soundstage bomb out pretty bad. The weight of the cone+coil+former will also simply make the driver less able to respond at hi freq. (like holding a brick in each hand and trying to do Tae Bo). With the MI-type driver (low Xmax) at high SPL, the compressive out-of-gap distortion will limit high frequency response as well, since responding to forcible bass will bring the coil out of its "wheelhouse"...
My personal opinion is don't exceed about 800Hz with a 10-inch driver, and that's pushing it; my T-S program tells me a typical 10-inch driver reaches piston transition at about 525Hz (where the cone circumference is about equal to 1/2 wavelength, rule-of-thumb, above which [as I understand it at least] it's output is more like beaming; you can perceive it in the soundstage and it loses off-axis dispersion (someone please correct me here on specifics if necessary)). Their statement of 3kHz response bandwidth might mean the coil velocity is at full amplitude, or maybe that some sound was detectable dead-on-axis. It does not mean the cone is moving uniformly or sounding good.
I haven't seen many 2-way systems on a 10" woofer. You may want to consider going 3-way (say maybe a low-Q 4.5" mid-bass), and XO at 500Hz&3-4kHz. If that is not an option, you're certainly safe enough where you suggest, but you may not enjoy it to the max (my goal is always to have the drivers' locations be forgotten if you close your eyes while listening). You will thus be greatly in control of SQ yourself in facing these choices. Any driver can sound great if bandwidth is applied appropriately.
My apologies for my rambling!!
Point well taken. Don't worry about "rambling". I need all the info that I can get. 
But in PA, are there not a number of 2-way speakers...be it 10", 12", 15"? Aren't these woofers playing to at least 2,000hz? So I suppose that since I am using a 2-way PA speaker, then going to 2,000hz is still better than going to 3,000hz. Correct? ( I already have a 2,000hz crossover in the box.)
But what you say does answer another question I had. I was planning on re-using the Dayton 10" classic for a Dayton/Pioneer 8" fullrange setup. I could probably lowpass the Dayton 10" Classic at 500hz. Then let the Pioneer 8" play from there. Then follow some earlier instructions on wiring a piezo tweeter for top end. Would the Dayton 10"/Pioneer 8" fullrange be an acceptable pairing?
But in PA, are there not a number of 2-way speakers...be it 10", 12", 15"? Aren't these woofers playing to at least 2,000hz? So I suppose that since I am using a 2-way PA speaker, then going to 2,000hz is still better than going to 3,000hz. Correct? ( I already have a 2,000hz crossover in the box.)
But what you say does answer another question I had. I was planning on re-using the Dayton 10" classic for a Dayton/Pioneer 8" fullrange setup. I could probably lowpass the Dayton 10" Classic at 500hz. Then let the Pioneer 8" play from there. Then follow some earlier instructions on wiring a piezo tweeter for top end. Would the Dayton 10"/Pioneer 8" fullrange be an acceptable pairing?
prerunnerv6:
I must admit that my experience is NOT in PA (I'm a Hi-Fi junkie/snob). What failed to cross my mind is that you probably have a horn-compression HFD, and that there are in fact many 2-way systems like this as you mention in the PA world. That probably explains why many pro-sound / MI drivers are paper cone (stiffer as mentioned).
Absolutely 2k is better than 3k in any event on the LFD. Provided the HFD can cope. Just don't let HFD resonance within about 1 octave of deisred XO point (<=1kHz) (more like 2 octaves (<=500Hz) if 6dB XO slope). This restriction can be mitigated with damped-chamber, low-Q tweeters, but I'm not sure how applicable that concept is to PA...? If these things are considered you are not going to break anything (including laws of physics) at 2k (and even 3k) on the XO. Truthfully, you'd have more to worry about from the HFD at a too-low XO point (jump-out/burn-out) than you would from the LFD at a too-high XO point. I think I said that right...
On the 10" LFD + 8" FRD + piezo; I certainly don't see why not. I am guessing that the 8" FR incorporates a whizzer cone? This generally provides for more acceptable mid-hi freq. delivery/dispersion in the midst of main-cone breakup (still you might consider not exceeding 7-10kHz with it - and you'll probably find varying opinions on that)... And piezo can push the rest of the range without much power expense. Probably works out pretty well.
I must admit that my experience is NOT in PA (I'm a Hi-Fi junkie/snob). What failed to cross my mind is that you probably have a horn-compression HFD, and that there are in fact many 2-way systems like this as you mention in the PA world. That probably explains why many pro-sound / MI drivers are paper cone (stiffer as mentioned).
Absolutely 2k is better than 3k in any event on the LFD. Provided the HFD can cope. Just don't let HFD resonance within about 1 octave of deisred XO point (<=1kHz) (more like 2 octaves (<=500Hz) if 6dB XO slope). This restriction can be mitigated with damped-chamber, low-Q tweeters, but I'm not sure how applicable that concept is to PA...? If these things are considered you are not going to break anything (including laws of physics) at 2k (and even 3k) on the XO.
Truthfully, you'd have more to worry about from the HFD at a too-low XO point (jump-out/burn-out) than you would from the LFD at a too-high XO point. I think I said that right...On the 10" LFD + 8" FRD + piezo; I certainly don't see why not. I am guessing that the 8" FR incorporates a whizzer cone? This generally provides for more acceptable mid-hi freq. delivery/dispersion in the midst of main-cone breakup (still you might consider not exceeding 7-10kHz with it - and you'll probably find varying opinions on that)... And piezo can push the rest of the range without much power expense. Probably works out pretty well.
acoustixman said:
Absolutely 2k is better than 3k in any event on the LFD. Provided the HFD can cope. Just don't let HFD resonance within about 1 octave of deisred XO point (<=1kHz) (more like 2 octaves (<=500Hz) if 6dB XO slope). This restriction can be mitigated with damped-chamber, low-Q tweeters, but I'm not sure how applicable that concept is to PA...? If these things are considered you are not going to break anything (including laws of physics) at 2k (and even 3k) on the XO.
The horn tweeter is suppose to be rated from 1000hz - 18000hz. 102db sensitivity. The Pioneer 10" PA speaker is rated up to 3,000hz. So I'm hoping that a 2,000hz x-over point will keep both drivers working well within their limits. I am thinking of putting a resistor on the tweeter to bring it's volume down closer to the Pioneer LFD.
Sounds good from my angle!
On tweeter attenuation, try using an "L-pad" approach; 1 resistor in shunt and one in series (between XO HF out and tweeter terminals). This both attenuates the driver and preserves (and actually can improve) the terminal impedance...
For example: if tweeter is 4-ohm and you want to lose 6 dB; shunt (parallel) tweeter with 4-ohm resistor (now 'looks' like 2-ohm tweeter) and hook this in series with 2-ohm resistor (now 'looks' like 4-ohm tweeter again (XO behaves correctly), only voltage divider reduces to 50% voltage (-6 dB). Use only non-inductive resistors (such as Mills from PE or Eagle from Madisound). Resistor power ratings must be appropriate (high) too. You can screw with this in other ways to vary XO target (driver) impedances to reach varied goals too. Variable L-pads are sometimes desirable for this, but offer less impedance flexibility.
This has an added benefit besides attenuation / balancing: Suppose the tweeter has a 16-ohm resonance peak (probably typical). Impedance is resistive at the very peak, so you can use ohms law without reactance here too. 16-ohm in parallel with 4-ohm gives 1/(1/4+1/16)= 3.2-ohm. Add this to 2-ohm in series and you have 5.2-ohm (frequency unchanged). 5.2-ohm relative to 4-ohm nominal is much flatter than is 16-ohm, so the XOF can safely be a bit closer to tweeter resonance with fairly consistent bahavior. The main issue with "tall" resonance in filter range is the impedance increase "competes for signal" against the filter and causes an undesirable response peak.
Picture this by contrast: If you have the same 4-ohm HFD and attempt to attenuate it by the same 6 dB with only a series resistor, that resistor would be 4-ohm. You've got your -6 dB, but now, there's no shunt resistor, so the tweeter now 'looks' like 8-ohm (XO misbehaves if it was calculated for 4-ohm load in this case) and the 16-ohm resonance peak is now at 20-ohm (and the XO could really misbehave). Not only that, but the attenuator also misbehaves; it will respond with (16/20) of the signal (-2.5 dB) at resonance. Double-whammy! Admittedly, the same thing happens in the other case, but not so badly (5.2/9.2 => -5 dB).
Happy tweaking!
edit: (Note: Responding to post #26)
On tweeter attenuation, try using an "L-pad" approach; 1 resistor in shunt and one in series (between XO HF out and tweeter terminals). This both attenuates the driver and preserves (and actually can improve) the terminal impedance...
For example: if tweeter is 4-ohm and you want to lose 6 dB; shunt (parallel) tweeter with 4-ohm resistor (now 'looks' like 2-ohm tweeter) and hook this in series with 2-ohm resistor (now 'looks' like 4-ohm tweeter again (XO behaves correctly), only voltage divider reduces to 50% voltage (-6 dB). Use only non-inductive resistors (such as Mills from PE or Eagle from Madisound). Resistor power ratings must be appropriate (high) too. You can screw with this in other ways to vary XO target (driver) impedances to reach varied goals too. Variable L-pads are sometimes desirable for this, but offer less impedance flexibility.
This has an added benefit besides attenuation / balancing: Suppose the tweeter has a 16-ohm resonance peak (probably typical). Impedance is resistive at the very peak, so you can use ohms law without reactance here too. 16-ohm in parallel with 4-ohm gives 1/(1/4+1/16)= 3.2-ohm. Add this to 2-ohm in series and you have 5.2-ohm (frequency unchanged). 5.2-ohm relative to 4-ohm nominal is much flatter than is 16-ohm, so the XOF can safely be a bit closer to tweeter resonance with fairly consistent bahavior. The main issue with "tall" resonance in filter range is the impedance increase "competes for signal" against the filter and causes an undesirable response peak.
Picture this by contrast: If you have the same 4-ohm HFD and attempt to attenuate it by the same 6 dB with only a series resistor, that resistor would be 4-ohm. You've got your -6 dB, but now, there's no shunt resistor, so the tweeter now 'looks' like 8-ohm (XO misbehaves if it was calculated for 4-ohm load in this case) and the 16-ohm resonance peak is now at 20-ohm (and the XO could really misbehave). Not only that, but the attenuator also misbehaves; it will respond with (16/20) of the signal (-2.5 dB) at resonance. Double-whammy! Admittedly, the same thing happens in the other case, but not so badly (5.2/9.2 => -5 dB).
Happy tweaking!
edit: (Note: Responding to post #26)
prerunnerv6 said:
I recommend internal acoustic isolation (separate enclosures), otherwise, each driver will be trying to be both a driver and a "passive radiator" being driven by the other!
If you're looking for simple (isolated) alignment info, then that's is a piece of cake given the T-S parameters...
Great! I will simply need to double the 22"H, keep the other dimensions the same, and separate the chamber internally.
Their efficiency should be near even, according to WINSID. And from other projects I've researched, I should get some impressive bass from the sealed Dayton 10". Not sub bass but something satisfying and would work nicely with a sub when I'm ready.
Thanks for all of the help.
Their efficiency should be near even, according to WINSID. And from other projects I've researched, I should get some impressive bass from the sealed Dayton 10". Not sub bass but something satisfying and would work nicely with a sub when I'm ready.
Thanks for all of the help.
Oh, I forgot something....
After running the numbers in WINISD again, I realized that I could make the enclosure partition for the Pioneer 8" smaller than I planned. Because I will be crossing it over around 500hz., I won't need the Pioneer 8" to handle bass duty.
It looks like I can build a sealed enclosure that's 15"W x 36"H x 9.5"D. I can partition 21"H to the Dayton 10" and 15"H to the Pioneer and piezo tweeter.
Two boxes (working together) and getting 150 watts each should give me some decent thump of 87db at 50hz nearly 50 feet away. Not subwoofer bass, but at least satisfying on a majority of music. May hold me until I can get a sub.
Does it look as if I have calculated this correctly? Or perhaps a dimension change? Possibly make the cabin a little deeper and not as tall.
Thanks.
After running the numbers in WINISD again, I realized that I could make the enclosure partition for the Pioneer 8" smaller than I planned. Because I will be crossing it over around 500hz., I won't need the Pioneer 8" to handle bass duty.
It looks like I can build a sealed enclosure that's 15"W x 36"H x 9.5"D. I can partition 21"H to the Dayton 10" and 15"H to the Pioneer and piezo tweeter.
Two boxes (working together) and getting 150 watts each should give me some decent thump of 87db at 50hz nearly 50 feet away. Not subwoofer bass, but at least satisfying on a majority of music. May hold me until I can get a sub.
Does it look as if I have calculated this correctly? Or perhaps a dimension change? Possibly make the cabin a little deeper and not as tall.
Thanks.
Prerunner:
Just be certain you don't make it so small that Qtc and fc get too high. Keeping Qtc at or below 0.707 (maximally flat response) is my rule-of-thumb for mid-bass units. If fc (aligned resonance) is too high the mids will rise against the XO just like the tweets too... I just remembered that you had provided the link to this driver's info... A 41-liter volume behind it will get you these qualities, but even at 15 liters (Qtc of 0.96) the resonance is 2.5 octaves below your intended crossover point and should work out fine, especially considering the impedance peak is then less than 20 ohms.
However, some new evidence has just now come to light... The web-data on the Pioneer differs GREATLY from that in my 2006 paper catalog from PE (on page 176, just as the web page suggests). The web-data show that it will give MORE bass extension than the Dayton (sealed OR ported), in which case I'd make it a 2-way and skip the 10... All preceding information in this post was on the basis of these data...
The paper catalog data suggest just the opposite, place the Pioneer into 11 or 12 sealed liters as a midrange and XO at 500 to the Dayton 10, just as you suggest. Now I don't know what to say, other than call them up and get the straight !#@$ from somebody!
The Dayton Classic 10 (295-315) is a truly great and versatile driver. I enjoyed it immensely in ported 65-L ported-box 3-ways I built for a friend (that is until they were stolen from him
). With that alignment, I'd never have needed a sub for music listening. It was awesome.
BTW: if I (for one) have been able to help you, it is my total pleasure, any time!! (provided I'm not too blabby; I love this stuff so I can get carried away, as my lovely wife would surely testify)
Just be certain you don't make it so small that Qtc and fc get too high. Keeping Qtc at or below 0.707 (maximally flat response) is my rule-of-thumb for mid-bass units. If fc (aligned resonance) is too high the mids will rise against the XO just like the tweets too... I just remembered that you had provided the link to this driver's info... A 41-liter volume behind it will get you these qualities, but even at 15 liters (Qtc of 0.96) the resonance is 2.5 octaves below your intended crossover point and should work out fine, especially considering the impedance peak is then less than 20 ohms.
However, some new evidence has just now come to light... The web-data on the Pioneer differs GREATLY from that in my 2006 paper catalog from PE (on page 176, just as the web page suggests). The web-data show that it will give MORE bass extension than the Dayton (sealed OR ported), in which case I'd make it a 2-way and skip the 10... All preceding information in this post was on the basis of these data...
The paper catalog data suggest just the opposite, place the Pioneer into 11 or 12 sealed liters as a midrange and XO at 500 to the Dayton 10, just as you suggest. Now I don't know what to say, other than call them up and get the straight !#@$ from somebody!
The Dayton Classic 10 (295-315) is a truly great and versatile driver. I enjoyed it immensely in ported 65-L ported-box 3-ways I built for a friend (that is until they were stolen from him
). With that alignment, I'd never have needed a sub for music listening. It was awesome.BTW: if I (for one) have been able to help you, it is my total pleasure, any time!! (provided I'm not too blabby; I love this stuff so I can get carried away, as my lovely wife would surely testify)
Adjusted Plan
Goal: I still want to use the Dayton Classic 10". I really don't want a separate subwoofer. Something that can do 50hz at good volume should be good for "party bass". (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I need good bass from a full-range speaker that can compliment the Pioneer 10" 2-ways PA's I'll put together. These will be running from the same amp/receiver. And I still want it to sound acceptable for music in my HOME. This is important. I do PA every now and then. I listen to music at home everyday.
Here's what I have:
Run TWO Dayton 10"s, a Pioneer 8" FW, and another 8ohm tweeter to help with top end. This would require minimal crossover components.
The calculations I have are a sealed box that is 13w x 45h x 13d using .75 thick board. The 2 Dayton 10"s will take the first 30"h (separated internally) for a combined 2.18 cf volume...with a QTC of .72.
The Pioneer 8" will take the 15"h for about 1 cf volume. QTC of .84.
Crossover of 500hz will have the Daytons at 92db and the Pioneer at 90db.
Crossover components will then just need to be a coil for the Daytons and a cap for the Pioneer.
Now here are the variables:
1. Running the Daytons in parallel will give a 4 ohm load. Should I wire in an 8ohm tweeter to run parallel with the Pioneer 8". Then run this all of it in series to get an 8 ohm load? Also, what frequency should I high pass them at? (For cap value)
2. I ran the numbers for ONE Dayton 10" ported. The box size is nearly identical to running 2 Daytons sealed. Ported will give me further extension to about 40hz. But lower overall output than the dual-Dayon sealed. But the ported output will be closer to the Pioneer sealed. Which would be better to go with?
3. If I go with an extra tweeter (instead of a piezo), what are some inexpensive options? I'm trying to keep the crossovers as SIMPLE as possible. EDIT, forget this part. I've got some 50 watt, 8ohm tweeters sitting at the house that will work well for this purpose.
Thanks.
Goal: I still want to use the Dayton Classic 10". I really don't want a separate subwoofer. Something that can do 50hz at good volume should be good for "party bass". (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I need good bass from a full-range speaker that can compliment the Pioneer 10" 2-ways PA's I'll put together. These will be running from the same amp/receiver. And I still want it to sound acceptable for music in my HOME. This is important. I do PA every now and then. I listen to music at home everyday.
Here's what I have:
Run TWO Dayton 10"s, a Pioneer 8" FW, and another 8ohm tweeter to help with top end. This would require minimal crossover components.
The calculations I have are a sealed box that is 13w x 45h x 13d using .75 thick board. The 2 Dayton 10"s will take the first 30"h (separated internally) for a combined 2.18 cf volume...with a QTC of .72.
The Pioneer 8" will take the 15"h for about 1 cf volume. QTC of .84.
Crossover of 500hz will have the Daytons at 92db and the Pioneer at 90db.
Crossover components will then just need to be a coil for the Daytons and a cap for the Pioneer.
Now here are the variables:
1. Running the Daytons in parallel will give a 4 ohm load. Should I wire in an 8ohm tweeter to run parallel with the Pioneer 8". Then run this all of it in series to get an 8 ohm load? Also, what frequency should I high pass them at? (For cap value)
2. I ran the numbers for ONE Dayton 10" ported. The box size is nearly identical to running 2 Daytons sealed. Ported will give me further extension to about 40hz. But lower overall output than the dual-Dayon sealed. But the ported output will be closer to the Pioneer sealed. Which would be better to go with?
3. If I go with an extra tweeter (instead of a piezo), what are some inexpensive options? I'm trying to keep the crossovers as SIMPLE as possible. EDIT, forget this part. I've got some 50 watt, 8ohm tweeters sitting at the house that will work well for this purpose.
Thanks.
In that case (assuming the person didn't just want to get you off the phone and also didn't know either), I definitely think it is capable of "out-doing" the Dayton Classic 10 on bass delivery (possibly both in bandwidth AND transient response), as much as I do like the Dayton 10. Even if it's close, I'd hate to XO the pioneer only to an equally capable woofer. Maybe you'll consider doing the Pioneer FR + piezo HFD along your earlier plan of using a 12 or 15... Like you mention in post #5 of this thread... I'd say you might as well if you are intent on going to the trouble of putting the Pioneer in a 3-way. I've never used the Classic 12, but It looks about as versatile as the 10 (and that much deeper)...
Check out the GOLDWOOD GW-12PC-50-4 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-332) and the DAYTON QT305-4 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-555). I just happen to be in the midst of deciding between these two for a rework of a couple of OLD 72-liter vented Infinity cabinets... They have emerged as the clear victors (for my criteria of tight-yet-deep bass response in my existing cabinet) against the Classic 12, the Series II 12, and others in the $50-$80 range from PE... I would consider all of these very closely if my volume wasn't already set. I don't even look at LFDs having Qts above about 0.5.
I have pretty much decided on the Goldwood (partly since the Quattro recommends XO below 200Hz; the Quattro could be a WONDERFUL mate for your Pioneer plan), and I will be using the Dayton Classic 6.5" (also a very nice driver) for the mid, XO at ~420Hz. In case you're interested, I'll be using the Vifa D25AG-35-06 damped-chamber 1" alum. dome tweeter, XO at ~3.5kHz...
Check out the GOLDWOOD GW-12PC-50-4 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-332) and the DAYTON QT305-4 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-555). I just happen to be in the midst of deciding between these two for a rework of a couple of OLD 72-liter vented Infinity cabinets... They have emerged as the clear victors (for my criteria of tight-yet-deep bass response in my existing cabinet) against the Classic 12, the Series II 12, and others in the $50-$80 range from PE... I would consider all of these very closely if my volume wasn't already set. I don't even look at LFDs having Qts above about 0.5.
I have pretty much decided on the Goldwood (partly since the Quattro recommends XO below 200Hz; the Quattro could be a WONDERFUL mate for your Pioneer plan), and I will be using the Dayton Classic 6.5" (also a very nice driver) for the mid, XO at ~420Hz. In case you're interested, I'll be using the Vifa D25AG-35-06 damped-chamber 1" alum. dome tweeter, XO at ~3.5kHz...
acoustixman,
Sounds like you have a very good plan. And what you are saying makes a lot of sense. For some reason, I seem focused on the Pioneer 8" when you are right...it's better to put that into a 2-way setup and I just don't need an 8" 2-way. I really like the sound of the Dayton Classic, which is why I'm reluctant to ditch it. With room gain, it does give some good thump. As with your experience, they make it hard to go out and buy a sub sometimes.
I've looked at your plans and reconsidered my setup up.
I'm am already about to order the Dayton Classic 6.5 and some Audax tweeters to do an upgrade on some nice sealed boxes at my house. These drivers seem to model well with the box. (Plus, the Classics are on sale. )
I could get some extra 6.5's and go ahead do a full Classic 3-way. Dayton 10, 6.5, and the Dayton silk tweeter. If I really wanted to, I could get some extra thump by running 2 Dayton 10"s similar to this PE project http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/veritas.htm
He's getting in room bass into the 30's from a sealed enclosure.
This plan would give me a smaller box than I originally was going to do.
I was considering getting the Dayton 3-way x-overs, since they are on sale. But I wonder if it's better to setup a 1st order 6b setup. Then I could run everything and end up with about an 8ohm load.
Any thoughts?
(By the way, your plan looks great!)
Sounds like you have a very good plan. And what you are saying makes a lot of sense. For some reason, I seem focused on the Pioneer 8" when you are right...it's better to put that into a 2-way setup and I just don't need an 8" 2-way. I really like the sound of the Dayton Classic, which is why I'm reluctant to ditch it. With room gain, it does give some good thump. As with your experience, they make it hard to go out and buy a sub sometimes.
I've looked at your plans and reconsidered my setup up.
I'm am already about to order the Dayton Classic 6.5 and some Audax tweeters to do an upgrade on some nice sealed boxes at my house. These drivers seem to model well with the box. (Plus, the Classics are on sale.
)I could get some extra 6.5's and go ahead do a full Classic 3-way. Dayton 10, 6.5, and the Dayton silk tweeter. If I really wanted to, I could get some extra thump by running 2 Dayton 10"s similar to this PE project http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/veritas.htm
He's getting in room bass into the 30's from a sealed enclosure.
This plan would give me a smaller box than I originally was going to do.
I was considering getting the Dayton 3-way x-overs, since they are on sale. But I wonder if it's better to setup a 1st order 6b setup. Then I could run everything and end up with about an 8ohm load.
Any thoughts?
(By the way, your plan looks great!)
I wrote the previous post before I read your last one...
There really is no wrong way to do any of it if you abide the laws of physics (such as don't hook + to -). Just lots of opinions and preferences, including whatever I might say...
Note that if you use two woofers together in acoustic parallel (as in both firing in the same air volume/baffle), you double the required box volume, as I think you already noted. If they are isobaric / acoustic series (sharing a single hole) you halve the required volume.
1) On the impedance, You can't really look at it like hooking drivers as resistors in series or parallel, since the impedances are usually strong functions of frequency. While the Dayton 10 is ~6-ohms at 200Hz, it is tens of ohms at 2kHz for example. Wiring drivers in series will make them try to act like XO components for each other and you usually don't want this. A 2-way series XO is a different approach, where an inductor is in parallel with the tweeter, and a capacitor is in parallel with the woofer, then these two assemblies are connected in series. I'd seriously recommend going second order since they are more predictable and you can worry less about resonances, but many purists disagree...The same folks may be compensating resonance peaks and so on... Ultimately, don't lose sleep about impedance differences between drivers, as long as the collective project is treated appropriately.
2) If you are truly set on the Dayton 10, I'd place one in 65L ported box, tuned to 38-40Hz (or two in 130L likewise gets you +3dB, but quite high port velocity / noise if not huge (doesn't count towards box volume)). Put the Pioneer in 12-20L sealed volume, XO at 4-500Hz.
3) I am definitely a fan of the dynamic tweeter category. They come close to a point source of sound which is to be desired, IMO. The D25AG-35-06 I mentioned in my last post has its own sealed volume and this is nice. It also has very little resonance peak - also nice. It is my clear favorite and can be XOd very low (keeps mid like a point source too).
Am I still helping at all?
There really is no wrong way to do any of it if you abide the laws of physics (such as don't hook + to -). Just lots of opinions and preferences, including whatever I might say...
Note that if you use two woofers together in acoustic parallel (as in both firing in the same air volume/baffle), you double the required box volume, as I think you already noted. If they are isobaric / acoustic series (sharing a single hole) you halve the required volume.
1) On the impedance, You can't really look at it like hooking drivers as resistors in series or parallel, since the impedances are usually strong functions of frequency. While the Dayton 10 is ~6-ohms at 200Hz, it is tens of ohms at 2kHz for example. Wiring drivers in series will make them try to act like XO components for each other and you usually don't want this. A 2-way series XO is a different approach, where an inductor is in parallel with the tweeter, and a capacitor is in parallel with the woofer, then these two assemblies are connected in series. I'd seriously recommend going second order since they are more predictable and you can worry less about resonances, but many purists disagree...The same folks may be compensating resonance peaks and so on... Ultimately, don't lose sleep about impedance differences between drivers, as long as the collective project is treated appropriately.
2) If you are truly set on the Dayton 10, I'd place one in 65L ported box, tuned to 38-40Hz (or two in 130L likewise gets you +3dB, but quite high port velocity / noise if not huge (doesn't count towards box volume)). Put the Pioneer in 12-20L sealed volume, XO at 4-500Hz.
3) I am definitely a fan of the dynamic tweeter category. They come close to a point source of sound which is to be desired, IMO. The D25AG-35-06 I mentioned in my last post has its own sealed volume and this is nice. It also has very little resonance peak - also nice. It is my clear favorite and can be XOd very low (keeps mid like a point source too).
Am I still helping at all?
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