@TNT , Good Question! First the facts, then the theory:
Everything made of atoms has a structure to it. In metals, this structure is crystalline below specific temperatures (when they are solid), which occurs at a different temperature for each metal. Take a look at some of these microstructures of the crystals that make up metals:
And wherever the crystal structures (or "grains") meet within the material, you have microscopic "grain boundaries," like this:
When electricity travels through material, it has an easier time (less resistance) moving across fewer grain boundaries. Given enough power, the flow of electrons has no problem jumping those gaps, kind of like how electricity can literally jump across the air from a door handle to your fingertips when you have enough of an electron-differential between yourself and the door handle, say after your feet have exchanged enough electrons with a wool rug.
The organization of the crystalline structure of the material is completely dependent upon the quality of the material, and the manufacturing process of the end product. By using various techniques at controlled temperatures, it is possible to create metal materials which are organized as one continuous crystal structure as opposed to a fractured assembly of crystal structures, with far fewer grain boundaries.
Here are microphotographs of the crystal structure in OFC vs OCC copper for illustration:
So far these are well-settled scientific facts, not audio theory.
The theory is that by allowing the modulating voltage of the signal to move less impeded by these breakages in the structural formation of the metal material, you will get a smoother signal. I have heard the argument that resistance is resistance, and that's how wire should be measured. That feels a bit like comparing 90 mph in a Ford Taurus vs 90 mph in a Porsche 911. The speed gun shows 60 mph on either one, right?
I already regret being baited into this discussion, but I thought I'd go ahead and lay out my reasoning for wanting OCC copper! I do understand that not everyone believes that different metal material structures can make a difference, in the same way some folks might not believe that a ceramic stylus will sound different than a diamond stylus, or that a conical diamond will sound different than a line-contact diamond. But this is the hobby, and I enjoy it!
Again, a huge thanks to everyone who has provided helpful suggestions so far!
There migth be a theory but again as you say, you cant really tell a difference in the real world... so I ask again, why bother?
//
//
The question was who needs it, not who doesn't need it. I'll tell you who needs it, the boutique cable business.
The only valid reason you need to try OCC is you want to try it.
The fact there is good rationale and some data to back up your choice makes this a particularly informed choice in the world of DIY. In terms of being scientifically informed its commendable.
The scientific method works on disproving a null hypothesis and that takes a trial. When the test is your listening pleasue in your system the best scientifically informed trial is to buy the OCC and give it a go.
Of interest are all the negative comments with apparent scientific or technical resons to say this is stupid. These arguments sometimes appear to be superior and scientifically based. But they are often just prejudice and arrogance. They display an ignorance of the fundamental scientific process and undestanding of the concept of test validity. In listening to music the valid measure is perceptual. This puts engineers and technicians into a field they often cant adapt to.
It would be cool to try a DBT trial to take out bias effects:
Make two very long interconnects
As long as possible so theres more crystals exposed
One from OCC the other non-OCC, same gauge and insulation
Put two speakers side by side
One fed by OCC and one non-OCC
Listen to a mono track played etither left or right
Get someone to randomly reconnect speker cables when you are out of the room so you dont know which is which
What do you hear?
Is it repeatable?
I did NOT say that you can't tell the difference in the real world. I do think there should be a difference, based on the theory stated above.
I DID say that you can't readily verify copper purity or single-crystal structure (to qualify that, I guess I meant "without specialized tools"). And I would rather not put in the effort of building a very high quality construction with other high quality components like connectors and sheathing without knowing that the source of the OCC wire is reputable and has a track history of supplying what they say they are supplying.
Did you buy your wife a real diamond ring? How do you know? (I don't mean this directed at you, but this is the principle at play, in essence.)
Diamond ring is purely a visual symbol. Audio cable is an equipment physically used in audio electronics. You need more accurate essence to cite.
I’m sure you get the point, my friend.
You wouldn’t want to research clarity/cut/karat for hours and hours, go to make a diamond ring, and then find out that you were given a similar but not exact centerpiece.
I hope I haven’t confused anyone else. The point is this: I want to use OCC wire, and that’s why I’ve asked for sources to find OCC wire.
Let not this thread goes the way other cable threads have gone. As usual the non-believers are the guilty one.
You are free to buy whatever you want but your stated reason for your search was a few bad experiences with poorly constructed cables. Correct me if I'm wrong but you haven't cited why the copper that's not as pure OCC will cause poor construction of audio cable. As far as I know, high or low purity of OCC isn't the culprit. If you know otherwise, I'm all ears.
The problem is you do not understand the basics of contructing the audio cables. The fact that you will or will not use the occ high purity copper has very little or marginal result on the final outcome. There are many other factors. In fact if you know how to construct cables you can achive outstanding results with basic ofc copper material. And using high purity ofc copper may be the final finish only. May be or not depending on the availbility of occ copper in desired geometry, thickness, isolation and so on. Have been building audio cables for 25 years. Kind Regards
Let’s say you have your desired occ material. Given the cross section you plan to use you can use solid core, you can use fewer thicker diameter multi strand wire or more strands of thinner diameter, you can either go for bare strands or litz configuration with enameled individual strands, you can go with tape, thicker or thinner wider or narrow, multi tapes individually isolated aka litz version or bare. Each will give totally diffrent sonic results even though they use same occ copper. But wait there is isolation dielectric you can use... even individual strands of multistrand litz wires can be enameled with diffrent material... polyester, kapton, nomex ... just to name a few. But still we can go further and incorporate shield screening which will open another can of worms... material... braid or tape wrap... copper, silver, steel, graphite.... there are few other factors. Where is the occ purity of material in it?? Maybe 5%, 10-15% of the final results at best. Kind Regards
Okay, so you're saying the resistance of a wire with grains should change in some slight way with a change in voltage, as a higher voltage will more easily "jump across" the grain boundaries. Has this been measured, and especially compared to measurements of wire with different size grains, or with "no grain" or "pure" wire?
If some values can be found for how the resistivity of a wire with a particular length and diameter changes in this way, it can be calculated how much distortion such a wire would generate in different applications, such as phono input or driving a speaker.
Hey Dusty,
I would hope your original question has been satisfactorily answered for you. Unless you are hoping for some cheap stuff from Ebay the only valid vendors of OCC wire have been provided to you.
The thread is starting to go wonky with people coming out of the woodwork questioning well, everything.
Yes I think I’m all set up!
Thank you to everyone who helped by submitting actual merchants. I have checked out a few of them, and I’m impressed so far.
This is a cool hobby, and everyone approaches it differently, so I harbor no hate to the haters! I’ve chosen my path to explore, and at the end of my experimenting maybe I won’t be able to hear any difference between thick lamp cord and 99.9999% single crystal fairy dust wire, but at least I’ll know for certain one way or another at that point.
But one thing I AM certain of is that I’ll have a very good time doing it, and create some very high quality cables that will last a lifetime. And ain’t that what DIY Audio is all about anyway!
peace out
Thank you to everyone who helped by submitting actual merchants. I have checked out a few of them, and I’m impressed so far.
This is a cool hobby, and everyone approaches it differently, so I harbor no hate to the haters! I’ve chosen my path to explore, and at the end of my experimenting maybe I won’t be able to hear any difference between thick lamp cord and 99.9999% single crystal fairy dust wire, but at least I’ll know for certain one way or another at that point.
But one thing I AM certain of is that I’ll have a very good time doing it, and create some very high quality cables that will last a lifetime. And ain’t that what DIY Audio is all about anyway!
peace out
Read about the skin effect.
And think whether the concept in your mind, that somehow purer copper is a better conductor, is a valid one.
Bear in mind that the average speaker wire is not very long, at least not enough to cause a significant load on the amplifier.
Design a test setup, test for AC signals, THD, whatever else members with more experience suggest.
Find out for yourself how much the signal clarity is improved.
You are going to connect speakers with it, and in an actual room, the signal will come from the driver, and also bounce off objects, and to your ears.
As such, I think the direct and reflected signals will be enough out of phase to negate the extra effort made for purer copper cables.
And think whether the concept in your mind, that somehow purer copper is a better conductor, is a valid one.
Bear in mind that the average speaker wire is not very long, at least not enough to cause a significant load on the amplifier.
Design a test setup, test for AC signals, THD, whatever else members with more experience suggest.
Find out for yourself how much the signal clarity is improved.
You are going to connect speakers with it, and in an actual room, the signal will come from the driver, and also bounce off objects, and to your ears.
As such, I think the direct and reflected signals will be enough out of phase to negate the extra effort made for purer copper cables.
Last edited:
Blue Jeans Cable is a great low-cost merchant who uses high quality Belden, and others wire.
I though your reason for this is to make better constructed cables. Now you are saying that the end goal is to see if it sounds different?
How else would he use speaker wire, except for speakers?
Another thread that goes on and on as a debate, that is what it is looking like.
OP, please, there must be more than a hundred threads here about speaker wires, their materials, and quality.
Read those, you might even find details of the test equipment.
When you can actually prove that the difference in normal EC grade and super pure cable results in better signal transfer, and it sounds better, we can think your theory has merit.
And there are members here who will try to duplicate your results.
So your tests must be repeatable by anybody in the world who has similar or better test equipment.
Until then, it is a theory.
Another thread that goes on and on as a debate, that is what it is looking like.
OP, please, there must be more than a hundred threads here about speaker wires, their materials, and quality.
Read those, you might even find details of the test equipment.
When you can actually prove that the difference in normal EC grade and super pure cable results in better signal transfer, and it sounds better, we can think your theory has merit.
And there are members here who will try to duplicate your results.
So your tests must be repeatable by anybody in the world who has similar or better test equipment.
Until then, it is a theory.