Hello SKR,
I agree, a 2000$ tonearm is not free, nor do I see it as a "poor man's version" of my arms. It's actually rather elaborate. The armwand is made up of three(different material) layers, has an internal "anti-resonator", the base "gallows" is milled from a solid block of Certal(wall thickness varies, to avoid a tuning fork resonance, etc...). And the wiring has been the same on a No.2 arm as it is on a Reference arm for quite some time.
Personally I prefer Nordost Valhalla (internal)tonearm wiring(different from the earlier interconnects and speaker cables by the same name) compared to VdH 150.
But the VdH wire might just suit your system or taste better. Equally, the Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs sound better than AG WBT Next Gens. Curiously my impression is reversed when listening to the copper version of said brand's RCA plugs. Anyway, that's got little to do with DIY
and is being discussed ad infinitum in other forums.
What's most important to me is that you may be wrong in assuming that Joseph set up the arm correctly. Too bad you're not living a little closer I'd be there to prove that any turntable/arm/cartridge is only as good as the person who sets it up. And the SME V and Rega arms are pretty user friendly(particularly if you think azimuth adjustment is of minor importance). My arms benefit from an experienced set up guy(don't know any girls in this area, - too bad...), because you can screw up the sound rather easily.
If you still own that arm, try again and I will guide you through the setup. Just send me a PM with your phonenumber and a good time to call...
Happy egg hunting to all !
Frank
I agree, a 2000$ tonearm is not free, nor do I see it as a "poor man's version" of my arms. It's actually rather elaborate. The armwand is made up of three(different material) layers, has an internal "anti-resonator", the base "gallows" is milled from a solid block of Certal(wall thickness varies, to avoid a tuning fork resonance, etc...). And the wiring has been the same on a No.2 arm as it is on a Reference arm for quite some time.
Personally I prefer Nordost Valhalla (internal)tonearm wiring(different from the earlier interconnects and speaker cables by the same name) compared to VdH 150.
But the VdH wire might just suit your system or taste better. Equally, the Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs sound better than AG WBT Next Gens. Curiously my impression is reversed when listening to the copper version of said brand's RCA plugs. Anyway, that's got little to do with DIY
and is being discussed ad infinitum in other forums.What's most important to me is that you may be wrong in assuming that Joseph set up the arm correctly. Too bad you're not living a little closer
I'd be there to prove that any turntable/arm/cartridge is only as good as the person who sets it up. And the SME V and Rega arms are pretty user friendly(particularly if you think azimuth adjustment is of minor importance). My arms benefit from an experienced set up guy(don't know any girls in this area, - too bad...), because you can screw up the sound rather easily.If you still own that arm, try again and I will guide you through the setup. Just send me a PM with your phonenumber and a good time to call...
Happy egg hunting to all !
Frank
Hi Frank,
Once again appreciate your response. If you look at my posting I never criticised the Arm, which is actually very well made. My concern was that quality of wiring and RCA plugs were not good and were degrading sound. And all these years I never realised as Schroeder is a big name in Tonearms and I could never fault it. I kept trying different phonostages ,amps and pre-amps in order to get respectable sound.
It was only 3 months back when I got my RB-250 rewired with Silver wiring that I realised actually all these years I was just forcing myself to listen to vinyl and actual fault was with tonearm wiring and RCA plug.
Also at that time when price was around $2000, SME-V and other top models were around 3000 to 3500. Iam talking about 5 years back. So 2000 represented decent value and this Model-2 ought to have sounded much better then what it did.
I am thankful to you for giving me an opportuinity to discuss this with you get best results from your Model-2.
Regarding Bullet Silver plugs vs. WBT Nextgen Silver 0102 my impression is different from yours. I love WBT and I have plenty of both Bullets and WBT. Incidentally in my Rega upgrade to silver wiring I am using FURUTECH Rodium plated plugs with very good sound.
But Frank i was so impressed with my Rega 250 upgrade that I just rewired my Schroeder Model-2 to silver wiring just last week and plugged it with WBT silver Nextgen.
I will write to you or call you after I install it. Right now I am allowing my Rega to fully burn-in. As the Catridge signal is very low it takes long time to burn-in.
Sorry if any of my comments were not appreciated.
Thanks & regards
SKR
Once again appreciate your response. If you look at my posting I never criticised the Arm, which is actually very well made. My concern was that quality of wiring and RCA plugs were not good and were degrading sound. And all these years I never realised as Schroeder is a big name in Tonearms and I could never fault it. I kept trying different phonostages ,amps and pre-amps in order to get respectable sound.
It was only 3 months back when I got my RB-250 rewired with Silver wiring that I realised actually all these years I was just forcing myself to listen to vinyl and actual fault was with tonearm wiring and RCA plug.
Also at that time when price was around $2000, SME-V and other top models were around 3000 to 3500. Iam talking about 5 years back. So 2000 represented decent value and this Model-2 ought to have sounded much better then what it did.
I am thankful to you for giving me an opportuinity to discuss this with you get best results from your Model-2.
Regarding Bullet Silver plugs vs. WBT Nextgen Silver 0102 my impression is different from yours. I love WBT and I have plenty of both Bullets and WBT. Incidentally in my Rega upgrade to silver wiring I am using FURUTECH Rodium plated plugs with very good sound.
But Frank i was so impressed with my Rega 250 upgrade that I just rewired my Schroeder Model-2 to silver wiring just last week and plugged it with WBT silver Nextgen.
I will write to you or call you after I install it. Right now I am allowing my Rega to fully burn-in. As the Catridge signal is very low it takes long time to burn-in.
Sorry if any of my comments were not appreciated.
Thanks & regards
SKR
Hello JD,
OK, Fine. But, how can that help in increasing/decreasing the weight measured at the stylus tip ? Will the VTF increase if the thumb wheel is tightened and will it reduce when the thumb wheel is loosened ?
Best regards,
Bins.
OK, Fine. But, how can that help in increasing/decreasing the weight measured at the stylus tip ? Will the VTF increase if the thumb wheel is tightened and will it reduce when the thumb wheel is loosened ?
Best regards,
Bins.
Thumb Wheel
Bins, Stop thinking in terms of loosening and tightening the thumb wheel. The thumb wheel has weight, mass, not very much. All you are doing is moving a small weight closer to or further away from the fulcrum of a lever which shifting of that distance makes the lever either closer to or further away from a balanced condition. You simply set the thumb wheel to the mid point of its travel. Then you achieve the desired VTF by moving the whole assembly on the arm tube. Then use the thumb wheel to fine tune the VTF.
That is what the analogy of the little kid on the see saw vs the BIG kid onn the see saw was all about.
Bill
Bins, Stop thinking in terms of loosening and tightening the thumb wheel. The thumb wheel has weight, mass, not very much. All you are doing is moving a small weight closer to or further away from the fulcrum of a lever which shifting of that distance makes the lever either closer to or further away from a balanced condition. You simply set the thumb wheel to the mid point of its travel. Then you achieve the desired VTF by moving the whole assembly on the arm tube. Then use the thumb wheel to fine tune the VTF.
That is what the analogy of the little kid on the see saw vs the BIG kid onn the see saw was all about.
Bill
Hi Bill/JD,
So, is this the process:
1. First we correct the arm balance using the counter weight.
2. Then, we set the VTF by adjusting the thumb wheel.
Best regards,
Bins.
So, is this the process:
1. First we correct the arm balance using the counter weight.
2. Then, we set the VTF by adjusting the thumb wheel.
Best regards,
Bins.
Hi Bins,
I still don't think you understood, so:
Move the counterweight until you are at or near the recommended VTF, say, 1,8gr and adjust azimuth while you're at it.
Now turn the screw, knurled wheel -or whatever you choose to use for that application- either clockwise("in" - towrds the pivot) to increase VTF or counterclockwise("out", away from the pivot) to decrease it until you have achieved a satisfactory balance between tracking ability and rendition of dynamic contrast.
For each full turn, you will experience no more than a fraction of a gram difference, hence the label "finetuning screw".
It is advisable to start out with said screw not completely "screwed in", but rather to leave it out a few turns(~ 5), so you'll have a reasonably large adjustment range.
Dear SKR,
Not to worry, I welcome criticism, particularly when it is constructive, such as yours. And I'm looking forward to your impressions once the wiring is broken in.
Cheers,
Frank
I still don't think you understood, so:
Move the counterweight until you are at or near the recommended VTF, say, 1,8gr and adjust azimuth while you're at it.
Now turn the screw, knurled wheel -or whatever you choose to use for that application- either clockwise("in" - towrds the pivot) to increase VTF or counterclockwise("out", away from the pivot) to decrease it until you have achieved a satisfactory balance between tracking ability and rendition of dynamic contrast.
For each full turn, you will experience no more than a fraction of a gram difference, hence the label "finetuning screw".
It is advisable to start out with said screw not completely "screwed in", but rather to leave it out a few turns(~ 5), so you'll have a reasonably large adjustment range.
Dear SKR,
Not to worry, I welcome criticism, particularly when it is constructive, such as yours. And I'm looking forward to your impressions once the wiring is broken in.
Cheers,
Frank
SKR and Frank,
I believe the "impression" of the sonic difference that SKR attributes to the Rega 250 arm with silver wiring is all due to synergistics.
After building more than a few different styles of interconnects (No flaming allowed) I have noticed that some sound more to my liking in different locations between components than others. Not necessarily better, just more to my liking and my systems inherent sound. Most of my interconnects are silver wire, or an alloy of silver. No silver coated copper.
Some attribute silver as adding a disproportionately bright sound, sparkle or color to the music. Change the CD player / tubes / tuner / cartridge and the sound WILL change, perhaps for the better, maybe not. Just because it cost more $$$ doesn't mean it HAS to sound better in your system. Synergy of components, wire type included makes it all come together smoothly.
I'd be willing to bet that SKR hears a large difference (for the better) when the tonearm wires are changed out in his Schroder arm.
Dene001,
Thanks for posting the pics of your version of Franks brilliant idea. A little rough around the edges perhaps but I'm thrilled to hear that it sounds great! I'm still drawing out parts and understanding arm length and geometry. Hope to share some pics in the future.
Ron
I believe the "impression" of the sonic difference that SKR attributes to the Rega 250 arm with silver wiring is all due to synergistics.
After building more than a few different styles of interconnects (No flaming allowed) I have noticed that some sound more to my liking in different locations between components than others. Not necessarily better, just more to my liking and my systems inherent sound. Most of my interconnects are silver wire, or an alloy of silver. No silver coated copper.
Some attribute silver as adding a disproportionately bright sound, sparkle or color to the music. Change the CD player / tubes / tuner / cartridge and the sound WILL change, perhaps for the better, maybe not. Just because it cost more $$$ doesn't mean it HAS to sound better in your system. Synergy of components, wire type included makes it all come together smoothly.
I'd be willing to bet that SKR hears a large difference (for the better) when the tonearm wires are changed out in his Schroder arm.
Dene001,
Thanks for posting the pics of your version of Franks brilliant idea. A little rough around the edges perhaps but I'm thrilled to hear that it sounds great! I'm still drawing out parts and understanding arm length and geometry. Hope to share some pics in the future.
Ron
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Hi Ron,
System synergy and your personal liking are very important. Still I think we can always differntiate between good and bad sound by our years of experience. There are things on which most can agree where as there are other things which are quite close and personal preferences will decide the one you prefer.
In case of my Rega-250 it is night and day difference and even a newcomer to audio can hear it.
I already got my Schroeder Model-2 rewired with VDH last week and I will post results after I install it. Tonearm you know takes long time to burn in due to very low signal from catridge.
SKR
Hi Ron,
Yes, my Schroeder DIY is a little rough, most of the work was made on my kitchen table
) As I said, I picked up many ready-made parts for building it. Anyway, thanks for your acknowledgement. And it sounds great, some choices in my tonearm made a big difference. The bamboo armwand for one (btw, I wonder why bamboo is not used more often by the DIY-ers). I have tried with another wood essence (beech), oil treated, and the result was dissapointing - thin, coloured sound. The counterweight is also fundamental; have tried with the (lighter) original Lenco counterweight and the lower bass range (wihere the fundamentals are) loose precision. Also (as Frank Schroeder mentioned), the way you tighten the counterweight is important - also affecting the bass response. On my arm, the tightening screw is made of nylon, allowing for some softness and damping, I found it better than the metal version.
It's a lot of experimenting, and adjusting all the parameters can be lenghty, but you get fantastic sound even with low budget cartridges.
I wish you have soon your Schroeder DIY version, so that you can enjoy it playing!!
Dan
SKR,
"Tonearm you know takes long time to burn in due to very low signal from cartridge"
I wonder if any conditioning of the wires would help here??? Similar to burning in a capacitor. (NO FLAMES for my opinions.....! ) ie; running an audio signal through them for a week or so. ???
Just thinking out loud.
"Still I think we can always differentiate between good and bad sound by our years of experience. There are things on which most can agree where as there are other things which are quite close and personal preferences will decide the one you prefer." ---agreed
Dene001,
"The bamboo arm wand for one (btw, I wonder why bamboo is not used more often by the DIY-ers)."
Did you use any sort of resonance dampening in the bamboo?
"The counterweight is also fundamental; have tried with the (lighter) original Lenco counterweight and the lower bass range (wihere the fundamentals are) loose precision. Also (as Frank Schroeder mentioned), the way you tighten the counterweight is important - also affecting the bass response. On my arm, the tightening screw is made of nylon, allowing for some softness and damping, I found it better than the metal version."
Very interesting information, could you expand on this please?
Ron
"Tonearm you know takes long time to burn in due to very low signal from cartridge"
I wonder if any conditioning of the wires would help here??? Similar to burning in a capacitor. (NO FLAMES for my opinions.....! ) ie; running an audio signal through them for a week or so. ???
Just thinking out loud.
"Still I think we can always differentiate between good and bad sound by our years of experience. There are things on which most can agree where as there are other things which are quite close and personal preferences will decide the one you prefer." ---agreed
Dene001,
"The bamboo arm wand for one (btw, I wonder why bamboo is not used more often by the DIY-ers)."
Did you use any sort of resonance dampening in the bamboo?
"The counterweight is also fundamental; have tried with the (lighter) original Lenco counterweight and the lower bass range (wihere the fundamentals are) loose precision. Also (as Frank Schroeder mentioned), the way you tighten the counterweight is important - also affecting the bass response. On my arm, the tightening screw is made of nylon, allowing for some softness and damping, I found it better than the metal version."
Very interesting information, could you expand on this please?
Ron
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The bamboo is only lacquered on the surface, not inside - nothing else. But I take it that some bamboo rods are better than others, so selection is important. Here's one photo where the different densities are visible - dark and solid on the outside, lighter on the inside.
Regarding the counterweight and the tightening screw, my remarks are essentially coming from trials. At first I used the Lenco counterweight with it's own metal tightening screw , then I made the brass one, using both a brass and a nylon screw for tightening. I also used some damping between the counterweight and the shaft (soft rubber). Best tresults (to my taste) are with no damping and the nylon screw rather firm tightening: bass is firm and "bouncy" but explores well the lower part, and I can easily follow the bass line in the song.
Cheers,
Dan
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Dene001,
I applaud your accomplishments!
Thanks for sharing those last few photos. I would agree that the dual density of bamboo should provide some natural dampening. I don't understand how different types of materials used in screws can effect the frequency response, I DO believe you, it just seems weird.
I have not had the courage to start building my tonearm yet. Perhaps I'll found out myself.
Open question to all on this thread;
Did you calculate the "mass" before buying a cartridge?
After we build the tonearm how do we calculate it's "Mass"?
Which in turn would determine the compliance of the cartridge (purchased) and hence the total mass / weight.
Can we use a gram scale to measure Mass, by weighing (without the cartridge) a finished, strung, magnets in place, tonearm without the counterweight?
If not then is there a simple calculation for tonearm mass?
I am gathering the components to start my "version" of Franks' wonderful tonearm. Just trying to comprehend the complexities of building before starting.
Thanks,
Ron
I applaud your accomplishments! Thanks for sharing those last few photos. I would agree that the dual density of bamboo should provide some natural dampening. I don't understand how different types of materials used in screws can effect the frequency response, I DO believe you, it just seems weird.
I have not had the courage to start building my tonearm yet.
Perhaps I'll found out myself.Open question to all on this thread;
Did you calculate the "mass" before buying a cartridge?
After we build the tonearm how do we calculate it's "Mass"?
Which in turn would determine the compliance of the cartridge (purchased) and hence the total mass / weight.
Can we use a gram scale to measure Mass, by weighing (without the cartridge) a finished, strung, magnets in place, tonearm without the counterweight?
If not then is there a simple calculation for tonearm mass?
I am gathering the components to start my "version" of Franks' wonderful tonearm. Just trying to comprehend the complexities of building before starting.
Thanks,
Ron
Hi Ron,
I wish there was some device to burn in a tonearmwire. I have a DIY cable burning machine which I assembled. The basic design and main board is from Hawaii( I am forgetting name of the company, which makes Phono amplifier also). But their is no provision for Tonearm cable burning and no sockets or pins to attach tonearmwire. Can you suggest. How do you burn a Capacitor ?
SKR
SKR,
I built a device, from the junk parts bin. We all have at least one!
It is a small wall wart transformer (forgot the voltage), but it's also hooked up to the speaker outputs of a junker radio. I left it on for a week to burn in my Xover caps for my Thor speakers. If you want the details I'll dig it up and post build details later. Let me know.
Any ideas on how to measure the mass of a DIY Schroeder style tonearm?
I started working on the wooden arm today. Fun!
Ron
I built a device, from the junk parts bin. We all have at least one!
It is a small wall wart transformer (forgot the voltage), but it's also hooked up to the speaker outputs of a junker radio. I left it on for a week to burn in my Xover caps for my Thor speakers. If you want the details I'll dig it up and post build details later. Let me know.
Any ideas on how to measure the mass of a DIY Schroeder style tonearm?
I started working on the wooden arm today.
Fun!Ron
I don't own a lathe and frankly can't afford one, but I do own a drill press. Not a great one but it works. Only Ryobi tool I own, most others are Bosch.
I modified my Drill press by installing a "live" center in the bottom cast iron plate. It is spring loaded underneath to help keep it turning smoothly.
I started with a 3/4" mahogany dowel and drilled a 1/8" hole through the middle of a 10" piece. I used a 6" bit and drilled from both sides. It came out pretty close for a first effort. I think I can run the wires later no problem.
I tried a Phillips screwdriver bit for the live center pivot first, it stripped out very quickly so I changed to a countersink bit, same as installed in the chuck to drive the spindle.
Rough cut files and later sandpaper works slowly but works fine. I now have a nice pile of sawdust on my workbench. The turned down end fits inside a 1/2" aluminum thick wall tube perfectly, it will be epoxied in later. Tung oil and mineral spirits mixed are soaking into the wood. I will finish cut it to length later.
Ron
I modified my Drill press by installing a "live" center in the bottom cast iron plate. It is spring loaded underneath to help keep it turning smoothly.
I started with a 3/4" mahogany dowel and drilled a 1/8" hole through the middle of a 10" piece. I used a 6" bit and drilled from both sides. It came out pretty close for a first effort. I think I can run the wires later no problem.
I tried a Phillips screwdriver bit for the live center pivot first, it stripped out very quickly so I changed to a countersink bit, same as installed in the chuck to drive the spindle.
Rough cut files and later sandpaper works slowly but works fine. I now have a nice pile of sawdust on my workbench. The turned down end fits inside a 1/2" aluminum thick wall tube perfectly, it will be epoxied in later. Tung oil and mineral spirits mixed are soaking into the wood. I will finish cut it to length later.
Ron
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SKR,
I built a device, from the junk parts bin. We all have at least one!
It is a small wall wart transformer (forgot the voltage), but it's also hooked up to the speaker outputs of a junker radio. I left it on for a week to burn in my Xover caps for my Thor speakers. If you want the details I'll dig it up and post build details later. Let me know.
Any ideas on how to measure the mass of a DIY Schroeder style tonearm?
I started working on the wooden arm today.
Ron
Hi Ron,
You can post the details if it is not too inconvenient. I have also thought of a way to burn tonearm wires. I will use my cable burner . i am making an ordinary cable with RCA plugs on one side and small clips on the other side. The RCA plugs will be plugged into the cable burner and the spring clips will be connected to tone arm clips (red,white ,blue,green), The other of the tonearm/phono cable will also be plugged into the cable burner thereby completing the circuit. I will leave it to burn for a week. I hope it works.
My Schroeder arm model-2 is not a wooden arm. I don't know what material is that.
SKR
Ron,
Your "lathe" is brilliant and I'd like to set one up in my shop. Would you go into a little more detail on the live center? Is there a bearing? Is it something like a bolt shank turning in the wood base? Are you concerned about side thrust on the drill press bearing? I've noticed frequent out-of-round in dowelling. Was that the case with the mahogany and did it effect turning your arm?
Your "lathe" is brilliant and I'd like to set one up in my shop. Would you go into a little more detail on the live center? Is there a bearing? Is it something like a bolt shank turning in the wood base? Are you concerned about side thrust on the drill press bearing? I've noticed frequent out-of-round in dowelling. Was that the case with the mahogany and did it effect turning your arm?
SKR,
It is essentially a cable burner / capacitor burner, I"m thinking with a resistor in series it could be used for the minute tonearm wire burn in as well. (for those of us who believe in this black magic / snake oil stuff) Here's a photo or 2.
It gets the AC from an old (garage) receiver's "B" set speaker outputs. That way it can be left on all night and the "A" speakers could be set to mute. I set it to a FM music station. The 9V DC power supplies the higher Voltage to help "condition" the caps / cables. The cap is there to prevent DC from returning to the receiver. Upper bar is connected to the +DC and through a cap the +AC from the receiver, the lower bar is both -DC and AC. The pics should make it self explanatory.
Ron
It is essentially a cable burner / capacitor burner, I"m thinking with a resistor in series it could be used for the minute tonearm wire burn in as well. (for those of us who believe in this black magic / snake oil stuff)
Here's a photo or 2. It gets the AC from an old (garage) receiver's "B" set speaker outputs. That way it can be left on all night and the "A" speakers could be set to mute. I set it to a FM music station. The 9V DC power supplies the higher Voltage to help "condition" the caps / cables. The cap is there to prevent DC from returning to the receiver. Upper bar is connected to the +DC and through a cap the +AC from the receiver, the lower bar is both -DC and AC. The pics should make it self explanatory.
Ron
Attachments
Dtut,
Interesting Name.
I cannot take credit for it, I found it "on the net" somewhere. There was also a Live center made from a bicycle wheel hub. I think that might be a better solution as I had a slight bit of slop in the bearing / spindle connection that made it more difficult to obtain a round shape. Sometimes it would go out-of- round and I would have to sneak up on the high lobes by moving the rasp out far enough to only clip off the high spots / lobes. Not a huge deal in the overall time it took to make the arm wand, maybe 10 minutes more total. It took me about 5 hours to get to this profile from a 3/4" round stock. Time includes drilling the center first, I used that hole as a guide for centering the stock in my "lathe". The Redneck lathe worked remarkably well for what it was. Junk pile scraps. The chuck came off an old hand crank drill that was a POS from China and never worked even poorly, so it is in a better place now.
I found a $0.95 Brass bearing 3/4" long with shoulder at OSH (orchard supply hardware) kinda like a Home Despot or Lowes. Spring holds the chuck down and helps to prevents it from wandering. Moved the Drill press table out of the way and put in a long bit to find the bottom hole location. Mounted the chuck on the board and used carriage bolts to hold it down because that what I had that would fit.
Worked slow and I'm happy with the results. Very shade tree mechanic / Redneck / trailer park compared to a real lathe, but as I said... it all came from the "Junk" drawer = Free!
Ron
Interesting Name.
I cannot take credit for it, I found it "on the net" somewhere. There was also a Live center made from a bicycle wheel hub. I think that might be a better solution as I had a slight bit of slop in the bearing / spindle connection that made it more difficult to obtain a round shape. Sometimes it would go out-of- round and I would have to sneak up on the high lobes by moving the rasp out far enough to only clip off the high spots / lobes. Not a huge deal in the overall time it took to make the arm wand, maybe 10 minutes more total. It took me about 5 hours to get to this profile from a 3/4" round stock. Time includes drilling the center first, I used that hole as a guide for centering the stock in my "lathe". The Redneck lathe worked remarkably well for what it was. Junk pile scraps. The chuck came off an old hand crank drill that was a POS from China and never worked even poorly, so it is in a better place now.
I found a $0.95 Brass bearing 3/4" long with shoulder at OSH (orchard supply hardware) kinda like a Home Despot or Lowes. Spring holds the chuck down and helps to prevents it from wandering. Moved the Drill press table out of the way and put in a long bit to find the bottom hole location. Mounted the chuck on the board and used carriage bolts to hold it down because that what I had that would fit.
Worked slow and I'm happy with the results. Very shade tree mechanic / Redneck / trailer park compared to a real lathe, but as I said... it all came from the "Junk" drawer = Free!
Ron
