Jeffrey,
Thanks for the description of your gears and cabling..One more thing I wanted to know, you got got your Arms wired by Vendenhul 150 silver wires. Do you find these silver VDH wires bright or thin or is it perfect sound you were looking for. How is the body of sound and mids and low frequencies
I was also using Silver bullets RCA plugs , but recently I tried WBT Nextgen Silver RCA plugs model 0102 and these are too good much better then Silver Bullets though a lot more expensive.
SKR
Thanks for the description of your gears and cabling..One more thing I wanted to know, you got got your Arms wired by Vendenhul 150 silver wires. Do you find these silver VDH wires bright or thin or is it perfect sound you were looking for. How is the body of sound and mids and low frequencies
I was also using Silver bullets RCA plugs , but recently I tried WBT Nextgen Silver RCA plugs model 0102 and these are too good much better then Silver Bullets though a lot more expensive.
SKR
That's a very hard question to answer. It's a bit difficult to use my ears (which at 54 years of age) could be much different than yours. Also everything is system dependant and I am sure that my equipment (like my ears) is, probably safe to say, not identical to yours. In my system with my amps, phonostage, amps speakers etc, with my ears, I find no high end stridency. The lows exploit the lower limits of my 15" open baffle speakers very well indeed. I strive for the most natural sound I can. I strive to get out all things in my system that would tell me I'm listening to a "reproduction". To that end, I believe I have acheived my goals with the project, but then again, nothing is absolutely perfect and I constantly look for ways to improve things.
I have listened to many systems and I can say, I am happy.
There is a saying "If it isn't broken, don't fix it" Well, my system is very far far away from being "broken" and while not trying to "fix" any one problem, I look for ways to make improvements. That comes from trial and error over time. A constantly moving target, not that I am dis-satisfied with any present "percieved" system limitation, it's just my nature to further refine the refinements.
JD
I have listened to many systems and I can say, I am happy.
There is a saying "If it isn't broken, don't fix it" Well, my system is very far far away from being "broken" and while not trying to "fix" any one problem, I look for ways to make improvements. That comes from trial and error over time. A constantly moving target, not that I am dis-satisfied with any present "percieved" system limitation, it's just my nature to further refine the refinements.
JD
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Hi Marek,
Can you suggest me which Tonearm wires to use as you have made your own arms and you are very happy with them..
Jeffrey is happy with Vendenhul-150 silver wires so I am also considering that for my other tonearm.
But if you have some more options do guide me do let me know. I want very clean and detailed sound but must have good body and soundstage.
As Jeffrey correctly said we audiophile keep looking for improvements.
SKR
Hi Jeffrey thanks for your reply. The reason I am asking you is because I want to change to Vendenhul 150 for my other tonearm and before i do that i want to make sure if you are happy with VDH. Although you did not give a clear judgement but it appears you are pretty happy with your system. Also you have heard a few other systems and still feel very satisfied with yours mean a lot to me.
SKR
When I first got the SME arm that I put on the Thorens, I rewired it at the time, That was 4 years ago. To live with something that long is actually saying I really liked the wire. I liked it so much as to use it my DIY Schroeder.
That's saying something as it is not the least expensive choice.
Next fall, I will have to change the surgical silicone tubing for the air pumps and compressors on my Versa.. funny how 15 years can make rubber stiff and brittle...Even tho i was planning on rewiring with the Cardas Litz it originally cam with, I will again reach into my wallet and go with the VanDenHul without hesitation.
That's saying something as it is not the least expensive choice.
Next fall, I will have to change the surgical silicone tubing for the air pumps and compressors on my Versa.. funny how 15 years can make rubber stiff and brittle...Even tho i was planning on rewiring with the Cardas Litz it originally cam with, I will again reach into my wallet and go with the VanDenHul without hesitation.
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Hi SKR,
Just to confirm what you heard, - the Soundscape pictures are completely outdated and if you have a No.2 arm with the wiring shown in the picture, I agree with your assessment. At the time I was more or less forced to use it due to pressure from a number of distributors. But 4 years ago, I was able to convince most of them that the current wiring is superior even though it doesn't bear a marketable name. And it comes with Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs, not the cheap Deltron plugs pictured.
All of which isn't supposed to imply that I don't respect what you heard, quite the opposite.
All the best,
Frank
Just to confirm what you heard, - the Soundscape pictures are completely outdated and if you have a No.2 arm with the wiring shown in the picture, I agree with your assessment. At the time I was more or less forced to use it due to pressure from a number of distributors. But 4 years ago, I was able to convince most of them that the current wiring is superior even though it doesn't bear a marketable name. And it comes with Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs, not the cheap Deltron plugs pictured.
All of which isn't supposed to imply that I don't respect what you heard, quite the opposite.
All the best,
Frank
Hi SKR,
“Can you suggest me which Tonearm wires to use”
The answer to that question is simple: silver! I said it sounded brighter (not bright, just brighter) and that’s what your sound needs. Anyway, if you believe that silver changed your Rega into a super hero, nothing else but silver will do for you. Just stay away from solid silver in Teflon insulation one dude was pushing on EBay; it is too stiff for the job.
Which tonearm are we talking about, is it the $2k “poor men” model of Schroeder? Sell it, don’t waist WDH silver on it. If you really want a Schroeder, get the reference model (with silver wire) from your dealer for long term in-home audition and only if you like it, pay for it.
Now if the question is how to get a very clean detailed sound with good body and soundstage …we need more information. What is the rest of your system, what are your speakers? What is the music, how old are you or how high do you hear? You won’t get it clean until you get the room acoustics right; you won’t get it really detailed until you get sensitive speakers. If you’re used to the sound of your system and change one component, the small difference will sound big to you (for a while) but not to others, that’s how the brain works. The trick is to get long term satisfaction. I liked the sound of my Schroeder “clones” but since I don’t like the name, I made my own, original tonearm (not a Schroeder clone) and I am very happy for more than one reason.
Marek
“Can you suggest me which Tonearm wires to use”
The answer to that question is simple: silver! I said it sounded brighter (not bright, just brighter) and that’s what your sound needs. Anyway, if you believe that silver changed your Rega into a super hero, nothing else but silver will do for you. Just stay away from solid silver in Teflon insulation one dude was pushing on EBay; it is too stiff for the job.
Which tonearm are we talking about, is it the $2k “poor men” model of Schroeder? Sell it, don’t waist WDH silver on it. If you really want a Schroeder, get the reference model (with silver wire) from your dealer for long term in-home audition and only if you like it, pay for it.
Now if the question is how to get a very clean detailed sound with good body and soundstage …we need more information. What is the rest of your system, what are your speakers? What is the music, how old are you or how high do you hear? You won’t get it clean until you get the room acoustics right; you won’t get it really detailed until you get sensitive speakers. If you’re used to the sound of your system and change one component, the small difference will sound big to you (for a while) but not to others, that’s how the brain works. The trick is to get long term satisfaction. I liked the sound of my Schroeder “clones” but since I don’t like the name, I made my own, original tonearm (not a Schroeder clone) and I am very happy for more than one reason.
Marek
it offers, well on mine, just a way to very fine tune the VTF without moving the main weight. Once I get very close with the main weight and get the arms' side to side balance where I want it, I can keep it there with the set screw and "dial in the exact VTF with the extra thumbwheel. Also if I change the VTA for a 180gram (or more) record, I won't have to touch the main weight at all, the adjustable brass thubwheel gives me all the weight adjustment I need. Since getting the main weigh is fairly time consuming, the adjustable weight is relatively quick. but... Don't adjust it while playing a record ;^P
JD
JD
anti-static bag
Sorry Ron, Mumetal is a highly permeable ferromagnetic metal which is used as a conductive path for magnetic lines of force. It is magnetic shielding material and also serves to shape magnetic fields. The anti-static bag simply doesn't exist as far as the magnetic field is concerned.
Bill
Sorry Ron, Mumetal is a highly permeable ferromagnetic metal which is used as a conductive path for magnetic lines of force. It is magnetic shielding material and also serves to shape magnetic fields. The anti-static bag simply doesn't exist as far as the magnetic field is concerned.
Bill
Hello JD,
For applying the VTF, on which side do we need to put on the extra thumb wheel ? Is it towards the front portion of the arm (I think so) or is it towards the rear end ?
Best regards,
Bins.
For applying the VTF, on which side do we need to put on the extra thumb wheel ? Is it towards the front portion of the arm (I think so) or is it towards the rear end ?
Best regards,
Bins.
Bins,
Towards the rear would be easier to adjust, and if you felt the need to have more available adjustment you could just make the thumb wheel longer. (threaded part) Screw into the counter weight to increase VTF, unscrew to decrease VTF.
In reality, you could put it in either location, however, the thumb wheel portion may interfere with the counter weight's ability to be placed forward.
Ron
Thanks Bill, I didn't think it would work, but I'm a cheap SOB and always trying to think "out of the box". Time to cut up an old Hard Drive.
Ron
Towards the rear would be easier to adjust, and if you felt the need to have more available adjustment you could just make the thumb wheel longer. (threaded part) Screw into the counter weight to increase VTF, unscrew to decrease VTF.
In reality, you could put it in either location, however, the thumb wheel portion may interfere with the counter weight's ability to be placed forward.
Ron
Thanks Bill, I didn't think it would work, but I'm a cheap SOB and always trying to think "out of the box". Time to cut up an old Hard Drive.
Ron
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Hi Frank,
Thanks for your comments which I appreciate. I am happy that you agree with me about your older wiring of model-2. Actually I had ordered model-2 with silver wiring but after 3 months soundscape told me that my arm has come with normal wiring. I took the delivery because I did not want to wait for another 3 or 4 months. After having listened to SME-V, I was totally disappointed and always wondered if there was problem with my Arm set up or my system because Schroeder is a big name and I expected even lower model-2 to sound decent. The set up of my arm was done by Soundscape and he came at my expense to Bangkok. So I presume he must have done a good job.
But my doubts about set up and system matching were cleared when I took out my very old Rega-250 and got rewired with Silver wires and got SHOCK OF MY LIFE to hear the sound of my system. This happened about 3 months back and I am sure Rega is still improving as total playing time has not been much.
It was after this I realised how poorly my Schroeder-2 was wired with cheap RCA plugs.
I am an audiophile for about 30 years now and have owned many systems like Wilson,Avantgarde,Nagra, Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland,clear Audio,SME-V, etc. etc.
At this point after listening to Rega-250 with silver wiring, I was wondering about this hype about High priced TONE ARMS and Turntables.
In my opinion now this Rega 250 is very close or similar in sound quality compared to my SME-V. It is working on a low priced DIY turntable.
I will recommend to all DIY and other Vinyl fans to buy a Rega RB-301 and rewire it with Silver wires say VDH-150 and use the best RCA plugs say WBT Nextgen Silver model 0102, then compare this with the ARM YOU THINK IS THE BEST IN YOUR OPINION.Buy a decent table (not very expensive) to mate this arm and have FUN.
Thanks
SKR
Hi Marek,
Thanks for your detailed reply and suggestions.
I am happy that you also recommend silver wires.
After hearing from you that silverr might be brighter I got little worried and wanted to confirm from you and Jeffrey. Also at times during BURN-IN process I started feeling a little brightness once in a while (may be psychologically ). But now the arm wires appears to be settling down and are not bright atall. They are clean,detailed with good body and soundstage and surprisingly smooth. May be my McIntosh Pre and power amps and Quad electrostatic speakers are going well with this arm and silver wire as both McIntosh and Quads are smooth and warm sounding.
Thanks
SKR
.
Hi Marek,
Thanks for your recommendation of higher priced top models of Tone arm.
You said $2000 as low priced arm which is no good and shoulld be discarded.
I don't agree with this. A $2000/ arm is not free and lot of money and it must be worth the money and BRAND TAG it carries. For $2000- you can get model-9 turntable from Project complete with very good arm. Just listen to Project Model-9 or a bit expensive model 10 and you will not feel need to buy a seperate arm unless you want to throw money. BUT WHEN YOU ARE LISTENING TO A LOW PRICE TURNTABLE DO NOT USE LOW PRICE CATRIDGE AND PHONOSTAGE. Give it a good catridge and phonostage like we give to expensive turntable and see the results. In a recent audio show here I heard Project model-9.2 connected to Wilson Bench speakers and Nuforce amplification (i don't remember Phonostage) and sound was just amazing.
After a certain price point law of diminishing return starts applying where you are paying so much more and getting very less in return.
My Friend says high end audio is "where a 25 cents record cleaning brush is sold for 25 dollars" .
Sorry no more buying of high priced tone arms. Now so many Turntables complete with Tonearm are available with great sound much below the price of High priced arms there is no need to buy these expensive arms. Eg. Project model 9 and 10, Nottingham model 264 with 12 inch arm, Michell Gryo and Orbe, Linn, VPI Classic with 10 inch arm. All these and many more, sounding exceptionally good provided connected to high quality amplification catridge and speakers.
If you want a very good Seperate arm please look at THOMAS SCHICK 12" arm which is very simple and very good sounding and sensibly priced.
Thanks
SKR
Thanks for your recommendation of higher priced top models of Tone arm.
You said $2000 as low priced arm which is no good and shoulld be discarded.
I don't agree with this. A $2000/ arm is not free and lot of money and it must be worth the money and BRAND TAG it carries. For $2000- you can get model-9 turntable from Project complete with very good arm. Just listen to Project Model-9 or a bit expensive model 10 and you will not feel need to buy a seperate arm unless you want to throw money. BUT WHEN YOU ARE LISTENING TO A LOW PRICE TURNTABLE DO NOT USE LOW PRICE CATRIDGE AND PHONOSTAGE. Give it a good catridge and phonostage like we give to expensive turntable and see the results. In a recent audio show here I heard Project model-9.2 connected to Wilson Bench speakers and Nuforce amplification (i don't remember Phonostage) and sound was just amazing.
After a certain price point law of diminishing return starts applying where you are paying so much more and getting very less in return.
My Friend says high end audio is "where a 25 cents record cleaning brush is sold for 25 dollars" .
Sorry no more buying of high priced tone arms. Now so many Turntables complete with Tonearm are available with great sound much below the price of High priced arms there is no need to buy these expensive arms. Eg. Project model 9 and 10, Nottingham model 264 with 12 inch arm, Michell Gryo and Orbe, Linn, VPI Classic with 10 inch arm. All these and many more, sounding exceptionally good provided connected to high quality amplification catridge and speakers.
If you want a very good Seperate arm please look at THOMAS SCHICK 12" arm which is very simple and very good sounding and sensibly priced.
Thanks
SKR
Hello,
Still, I am unable to completely understand the idea of adjusting the VTF using the thumb wheel.
Can some one tell me how the concept of VTF adjustment works for this arm ?
Best regards,
Bins.
Still, I am unable to completely understand the idea of adjusting the VTF using the thumb wheel.
Can some one tell me how the concept of VTF adjustment works for this arm ?Best regards,
Bins.
have you ever played on a teeter totter when you were a child?
When your big and heavy uncle sat on one end and you sat on the other, you were always up in the air.
The only way you could play with him is if he moved way forward so that your weight and his weight was balance so both of you could go up and down.
Think of the counter weight as your uncle. Think of the adjustable thucbwheel as some extra stones in his pocket that he can add so he wouldn't have to move back if you happened to gain weight.
Screwing the thunbwheel back effectively adds weight in very smaller increments than moving the main weight...it "fine tunes" the balance.
JD
When your big and heavy uncle sat on one end and you sat on the other, you were always up in the air.
The only way you could play with him is if he moved way forward so that your weight and his weight was balance so both of you could go up and down.
Think of the counter weight as your uncle. Think of the adjustable thucbwheel as some extra stones in his pocket that he can add so he wouldn't have to move back if you happened to gain weight.
Screwing the thunbwheel back effectively adds weight in very smaller increments than moving the main weight...it "fine tunes" the balance.
JD
Hello,
Still, I am unable to completely understand the idea of adjusting the VTF using the thumb wheel.
Best regards,
Bins.
Another homemade DIY Schroeder...
Some 3 years ago, I also discovered the Schroeder tonearm, and was fascinated by its (deceiving) simplicity and the brilliant solution of the combined string and magnetic suspension. At the time, I had just rebuilt a Lenco turntable and equipped it with a Rega RB250 tonearm. It worked beautiful, much better than other turntables that I owned (Thorens TD166, Dual 506, Luxman PD282). Of course the project of building a clone of the Schroeder tonearm came in view. The Schroeder Reference looked beautiful (it still looks fantastic!), and especially attractive to me, seeming somewhat simpler to build. So I took an image of it and enlarged it to 1:1 scale, to be able to estimate the different sizes. Not having my own workshop or special tools, I searched primarily for ready-made pieces that could be easily adapted to my project.
I decided to use the original mounting hole of the Lenco for the arm, as it allowed for the VTA adjustment. For the length of the tonearm, I chose 10.5", based on different information gathered on the net. I made a sketch of the overall geometry of the arm and the turntable, to make shure it all fits. I will not go through all the details of building the tonearm, but there are some things which I found to work well and thought I should share in this thread. I also have some photos to show the overall construction and some details.
The armwand is build of bamboo. An obvious advantage is the already-drilled hole. Another thing which I thought good for the damping of the tonearm is the density of the bamboo - very hard on the surface and softer towards the center. I picked a well-dried bamboo rod about 12mm outer diameter and 4mm inner diameter, which I adjusted at one end and pressed in a 12 mm aluminium tube. I did not oil the bamboo rod, just laquered it for moist resistance.
In the aluminium part a 5mm diameter Neodym magnet is simply press-fixed. On it I glued (2 components polymer glue) the string, which comes out through a 3mm hole in the arm. The opposite magnet (fixed on the lower support plate) is larger, 10mm in diameter, which allows for an increased attraction force. On the open end of the aluminium tube another smaller tube is fixed, supporting the counterweight. I found the string in a fishing shop, it's used for trout fishing.
The couterweight is made from brass, in fact it's a door stopper which I just drilled through so that it can fit on the arm. The door stopper had also a rubber gromet, I left it on, it could influence positively the vibration absorbtion.
The tonearm shaft is also made of brass, in fact there are 3 plumbery fittings screwed together. I reduced the diameter of the bottom piece to fit exactly in the original Lenco hole. The two supporting plates are 5mm Al sandwitched between the pole pieces. Since the support plates are 100mm long, I introduced an additional screw in their middle to tighten them together and increase rigidity.
For different fixations (counterweight, string, cartridge mounting piece) I used nylon screws. They are easy to process and are non-magnetic.
All parameters (VTA, anti-skating, azimuth) are adjustable, much like on the original Schroeder. With the final version of the tonearm as presented above, all settings correctly made, the sound is excellent: natural, dynamic, reduced disc noise and distortion on inner grooves. I tested it with the following cartidges: Shure M95, AT 440MLa, Nagaoka OS300, Denon DL103.
Some 3 years ago, I also discovered the Schroeder tonearm, and was fascinated by its (deceiving) simplicity and the brilliant solution of the combined string and magnetic suspension. At the time, I had just rebuilt a Lenco turntable and equipped it with a Rega RB250 tonearm. It worked beautiful, much better than other turntables that I owned (Thorens TD166, Dual 506, Luxman PD282). Of course the project of building a clone of the Schroeder tonearm came in view. The Schroeder Reference looked beautiful (it still looks fantastic!), and especially attractive to me, seeming somewhat simpler to build. So I took an image of it and enlarged it to 1:1 scale, to be able to estimate the different sizes. Not having my own workshop or special tools, I searched primarily for ready-made pieces that could be easily adapted to my project.
I decided to use the original mounting hole of the Lenco for the arm, as it allowed for the VTA adjustment. For the length of the tonearm, I chose 10.5", based on different information gathered on the net. I made a sketch of the overall geometry of the arm and the turntable, to make shure it all fits. I will not go through all the details of building the tonearm, but there are some things which I found to work well and thought I should share in this thread. I also have some photos to show the overall construction and some details.
The armwand is build of bamboo. An obvious advantage is the already-drilled hole. Another thing which I thought good for the damping of the tonearm is the density of the bamboo - very hard on the surface and softer towards the center. I picked a well-dried bamboo rod about 12mm outer diameter and 4mm inner diameter, which I adjusted at one end and pressed in a 12 mm aluminium tube. I did not oil the bamboo rod, just laquered it for moist resistance.
In the aluminium part a 5mm diameter Neodym magnet is simply press-fixed. On it I glued (2 components polymer glue) the string, which comes out through a 3mm hole in the arm. The opposite magnet (fixed on the lower support plate) is larger, 10mm in diameter, which allows for an increased attraction force. On the open end of the aluminium tube another smaller tube is fixed, supporting the counterweight. I found the string in a fishing shop, it's used for trout fishing.
The couterweight is made from brass, in fact it's a door stopper which I just drilled through so that it can fit on the arm. The door stopper had also a rubber gromet, I left it on, it could influence positively the vibration absorbtion.
The tonearm shaft is also made of brass, in fact there are 3 plumbery fittings screwed together. I reduced the diameter of the bottom piece to fit exactly in the original Lenco hole. The two supporting plates are 5mm Al sandwitched between the pole pieces. Since the support plates are 100mm long, I introduced an additional screw in their middle to tighten them together and increase rigidity.
For different fixations (counterweight, string, cartridge mounting piece) I used nylon screws. They are easy to process and are non-magnetic.
All parameters (VTA, anti-skating, azimuth) are adjustable, much like on the original Schroeder. With the final version of the tonearm as presented above, all settings correctly made, the sound is excellent: natural, dynamic, reduced disc noise and distortion on inner grooves. I tested it with the following cartidges: Shure M95, AT 440MLa, Nagaoka OS300, Denon DL103.
