...a long threatened 'experiment' comes to fruition...
Just some particleboard scrap utilized, not elegant but suitable. Sizing of the lower void was meant for a 6" V.3, but a V.2 pair was siting around idle, so...
Mags, it's just as I thought (if you're watching)....there is no noticeable negative effect with regards to gross cancellations of response, at least in a listening test. If anything, volume/spl seems to be augmented...which IMHO relates as to why GP 'pairs' their DDD units and indicates such in their specs.
Because of the difference in size of the cones of my drivers, there seems to be an 'evening out' of the tonality, much like what we'd experience with different driver sizes with a conventional speaker. If there's anything going on that's perhaps not apparent without 'getting deep', there may be the condition of the cones moving towards each other in the lower frequencies being cancelled out. If the seal between the two was airtight (which it certainly isn't now), any tendency to 'push air' as with a conventional driver might be damped out. Just thinking...
If there's anything noticeable that's a negative, the spatial qualities at the intersection/collar at the bases create a 'null zone' in the near field, say 1~4'. Not surprising, that. The radiation pattern tends to be tilted 'up' from the cones, more or less at a right angle from the cone's angle.
...but fun to play with, none the less....*G*
Next variant: Mount the units reversed from as shown, but spaced apart vertically...think of the lower unit above the upper one, but say 3~4' apart.
Will the created dispersions 'blend' better, much like the interaction of the T/M/W of a conventional speaker? My experience with my little clones says they will....stay tuned.
That is very good looking and much more professional looking than my setup the only excuse I have is that I have no tools. interested to see where the experiments take you in the future.
It looks better 'at a distance'...*L* The next version, which the cones will be in a 'hourglass' alignment, should prove to be interesting. I'd like to be able to vary the distance between the units vertically to hear if there's any variations near and far field. Having them able to be a tad louder was nice, within their limits of course. Don't want to 'smoke the children', after all....
Have finally been able to spend some fab time on the V.3.5/V.4 3 way. Mounting plates routed, ready for sanding/fitting. Then the assembly routine starts.
Yeah, I've got these tools about....sometimes I feel like something betwixt a watchmaker and a butcher. Chainsaws through Japanese hand saws is but one range around here....*G*
Have finally been able to spend some fab time on the V.3.5/V.4 3 way. Mounting plates routed, ready for sanding/fitting. Then the assembly routine starts.
Yeah, I've got these tools about....sometimes I feel like something betwixt a watchmaker and a butcher. Chainsaws through Japanese hand saws is but one range around here....*G*
Jerryrigged invited me to this party.
EnABL was originally applied to an Ohm F pair purchased from Henry Radio in Anaheim CA...I think...? In any event, Henry Radio, the off shoot run by Walt Henry Jr.
The audible result of an EnABL application to F's is to turn a layered, though fairly well integrated sound emitter, into a spherical emitter that is fully mixed within inches of the cone. Patterns inside and out absolutely control all resonance emissions. The result is a presentation so realistic that my 5 year old son unplugged one while it was playing at full volume. Blew up the SAE SS amp and crumpled the cone involved. Once we could all hear again, he tearfully explained that he only wanted to let the people inside out, not kill them. This trauma took a while to dissipate.
I did provide Dale Harder with a set of guides for pattern placement that reflect this early work. I would need to have a cone to discover even more efficient placements, just the cone, though the voice coil and surround have a minor role to play in the EnABL process.
Bud
EnABL was originally applied to an Ohm F pair purchased from Henry Radio in Anaheim CA...I think...? In any event, Henry Radio, the off shoot run by Walt Henry Jr.
The audible result of an EnABL application to F's is to turn a layered, though fairly well integrated sound emitter, into a spherical emitter that is fully mixed within inches of the cone. Patterns inside and out absolutely control all resonance emissions. The result is a presentation so realistic that my 5 year old son unplugged one while it was playing at full volume. Blew up the SAE SS amp and crumpled the cone involved. Once we could all hear again, he tearfully explained that he only wanted to let the people inside out, not kill them. This trauma took a while to dissipate.
I did provide Dale Harder with a set of guides for pattern placement that reflect this early work. I would need to have a cone to discover even more efficient placements, just the cone, though the voice coil and surround have a minor role to play in the EnABL process.
Bud
'Ain't nothin' but a house party...'
...with apologies to J. Geils & Co.
Thanks for coming by Bud, and welcome. *S*
Born in Long Beach, I remember Henry Radio. Closest thing to an audio Mecca for the era, and we've just dated ourselves profoundly...
Anyway, 'house rules': Serious fun, digressions welcome.
As to digressions, I trust the child didn't develop a serious 'reaction formation' re audio transducers and the like. I can only imagine the immediate adult reaction to that event...*?!*
I'm exploring variations of the Walsh design by exploiting and 'repurposing' existing driver's voice coil/magnet structures with new cones and surrounds, lashed together with off the shelf hardware and support constructs of readily available materials. In short, for now, tongue in cheek, 'making trash sing'.
...but you've probably noticed that already...
My current thinking is that, agreed, the voice coil is a minor player other than having to be able to handle high wattage and the heat generated by the demands of exciting the cone. The surround needs to support and damp the edge as best as possible; as of now I'm using PVA foam (cheap, readily available, easy to work with) but would like to try Sorbothane or similar in a future variant.
I can supply a cone in the material I'm currently using, which is 5 mil lithographic aluminum. When you stop laughing, I've lots of it, it works reasonable well enough in the current set of 4 I've been listening to, and I find the color amusing. Ultimately, cones of 2 mil alum or carbon fiber when my budget can extend itself there... Obviously I can also supply the 'flat pattern' used to create that cone.
The cone profile I'd like to investigate next would be 1~1.5" dia. at the top, 7" dia. at the bottom, and approx. 10~10.5" tall. The surface angle will be nominally 75 degrees. This is the slope I've been using, which approximates the original patent and the slope of the German Physiks drivers which are my 'rough model' for design purposes....
...although I'm hardly anywhere near their 'fit & finish', I think mine are kinda 'cute' *G*. But one's children are always like that.
I choose the above dimensions roughly based on the F's profile, omitting the paper bottom third. IMHO, eliminating the 'mechanical crossover' at the junction of aluminum to paper, where the cone transits from a dml to a pistonic mode should allow for more 'purity of purpose' (if you will). I'm currently using a sub for the lower frequencies which seems to my ears to work nicely. And it 'decomplicates' the physics and the structure overall....IMHO.
Your thoughts? Is this windmill worth tilting? *G*
I've other thoughts and comments, but launching into a novella would put both of us catatonic and any viewers screaming into 'Any Other Forum, PLEASE'. *L*
...with apologies to J. Geils & Co.
Thanks for coming by Bud, and welcome. *S*
Born in Long Beach, I remember Henry Radio. Closest thing to an audio Mecca for the era, and we've just dated ourselves profoundly...
Anyway, 'house rules': Serious fun, digressions welcome.
As to digressions, I trust the child didn't develop a serious 'reaction formation' re audio transducers and the like. I can only imagine the immediate adult reaction to that event...*?!*
I'm exploring variations of the Walsh design by exploiting and 'repurposing' existing driver's voice coil/magnet structures with new cones and surrounds, lashed together with off the shelf hardware and support constructs of readily available materials. In short, for now, tongue in cheek, 'making trash sing'.
...but you've probably noticed that already...
My current thinking is that, agreed, the voice coil is a minor player other than having to be able to handle high wattage and the heat generated by the demands of exciting the cone. The surround needs to support and damp the edge as best as possible; as of now I'm using PVA foam (cheap, readily available, easy to work with) but would like to try Sorbothane or similar in a future variant.
I can supply a cone in the material I'm currently using, which is 5 mil lithographic aluminum. When you stop laughing, I've lots of it, it works reasonable well enough in the current set of 4 I've been listening to, and I find the color amusing. Ultimately, cones of 2 mil alum or carbon fiber when my budget can extend itself there... Obviously I can also supply the 'flat pattern' used to create that cone.
The cone profile I'd like to investigate next would be 1~1.5" dia. at the top, 7" dia. at the bottom, and approx. 10~10.5" tall. The surface angle will be nominally 75 degrees. This is the slope I've been using, which approximates the original patent and the slope of the German Physiks drivers which are my 'rough model' for design purposes....
...although I'm hardly anywhere near their 'fit & finish', I think mine are kinda 'cute' *G*. But one's children are always like that.
I choose the above dimensions roughly based on the F's profile, omitting the paper bottom third. IMHO, eliminating the 'mechanical crossover' at the junction of aluminum to paper, where the cone transits from a dml to a pistonic mode should allow for more 'purity of purpose' (if you will). I'm currently using a sub for the lower frequencies which seems to my ears to work nicely. And it 'decomplicates' the physics and the structure overall....IMHO.
Your thoughts? Is this windmill worth tilting? *G*
I've other thoughts and comments, but launching into a novella would put both of us catatonic and any viewers screaming into 'Any Other Forum, PLEASE'. *L*
Yeeesss, vedy interestink... Any clue as to when that transaction occurred?
If recent, maybe Ohm decided to 'get religion' and return to the past...perhaps noticing what GermPhys charges for their progeny.
If not, they either a)didn't learn anything, b)decided it was too much of a bother, or c) feel their products are 'Walsh enough' and people are buying them anyway...
Obviously I took your suggestion a bit further, and invited Bud to this road show. I'm honored that a major participant would take this dilettante seriously. (And Yes, Bud, you can call this a 'serious suck-up' *L* But I'm still pleased and a little stunned...I'll get over it...).
The reference to the use of felt on the cone surface, mentioned early on @ Bud's forum, intrigues me. Since I've got 4 relatively identical drivers in hand, it'd be an interesting opportunity to A/B them.
The 'fuzzy' half of Velcro is available as self-adhesive. 'Ell, I might even have some running around here already....
Wondering out loud, so to speak....would the pattern for applications apply for any size cone given the same proportions, or would they be unique for every cone size regardless of profile? Variance by cone material (alum, cf, titanium) would be fair to assume and expected.
*L* I should figure out a way to 'hot swap' cones, much like server hard drives.
If recent, maybe Ohm decided to 'get religion' and return to the past...perhaps noticing what GermPhys charges for their progeny.
If not, they either a)didn't learn anything, b)decided it was too much of a bother, or c) feel their products are 'Walsh enough' and people are buying them anyway...
Obviously I took your suggestion a bit further, and invited Bud to this road show. I'm honored that a major participant would take this dilettante seriously. (And Yes, Bud, you can call this a 'serious suck-up' *L* But I'm still pleased and a little stunned...I'll get over it...).
The reference to the use of felt on the cone surface, mentioned early on @ Bud's forum, intrigues me. Since I've got 4 relatively identical drivers in hand, it'd be an interesting opportunity to A/B them.
The 'fuzzy' half of Velcro is available as self-adhesive. 'Ell, I might even have some running around here already....
Wondering out loud, so to speak....would the pattern for applications apply for any size cone given the same proportions, or would they be unique for every cone size regardless of profile? Variance by cone material (alum, cf, titanium) would be fair to assume and expected.
*L* I should figure out a way to 'hot swap' cones, much like server hard drives.
Jer-
Don't forget the Pellon. Similar to felt but slightly less dense, and you can get it with a thermal adhesive on one side. Not sure I like the hot glue, however. As I said before, when we were playing with the tweeters years ago, we used silicone grease (not heatsink compound) to stick the Pellon to the inner surface of the foil.
Don't forget the Pellon. Similar to felt but slightly less dense, and you can get it with a thermal adhesive on one side. Not sure I like the hot glue, however. As I said before, when we were playing with the tweeters years ago, we used silicone grease (not heatsink compound) to stick the Pellon to the inner surface of the foil.
The post regarding the sale of a Walsh tweeter to Ohm is Post#9, by NatEddy, posted 28 Apr 2003.
The tweets turn up on Ebay occasionally, usually trashed, and there is at least one fellow that claims to be able to resurrect them from the dead.
Infinity went through a good number of iterations, much to the consternation of enthusiasts who are trying to restore them to their original glory, and I can only speculate as to why.
Cost of drivers may be one reason. The ones I played with were based on a Seas 1 1/2" dome which was used in the Dynaco bookshelf kit. We crossed them at 2KHz. The cost was $10 per in the 70's. The examples of the later Infinity units I've seen were built on much less expensive ($2-3) platforms, crossed at 10Kkz, and from what I have seen, were rather shoddily constructed. As some of you know, time and patience are needed for a build- neither are welcome in a production environment.
The tweets turn up on Ebay occasionally, usually trashed, and there is at least one fellow that claims to be able to resurrect them from the dead.
Infinity went through a good number of iterations, much to the consternation of enthusiasts who are trying to restore them to their original glory, and I can only speculate as to why.
Cost of drivers may be one reason. The ones I played with were based on a Seas 1 1/2" dome which was used in the Dynaco bookshelf kit. We crossed them at 2KHz. The cost was $10 per in the 70's. The examples of the later Infinity units I've seen were built on much less expensive ($2-3) platforms, crossed at 10Kkz, and from what I have seen, were rather shoddily constructed. As some of you know, time and patience are needed for a build- neither are welcome in a production environment.
"Monday, monday....can't trust that day...."
*L* I haven't forgotten the Pellon, I'm just being 'frugal' (i.e., cheap) by considering the fuzzy Velcro. And since it'd be applied 'post forming' of the cone, it'd be a 'trial by tweezers' to apply inside of the cone. And I'd like to avoid heat treatments too...don't know how my cone seam adhesive routine would respond to heat, and would rather not find out the hard way.
'Density Issues' (Velcro vs. felt) might be a factor, but I think I'll elect to use a double-faced adhesive that would allow me to swap the materials out. If you can't be sure, get devious. *L*
2003? *L* Ohm blew it off, IMHO.
I've chatted up that guy who repairs the Inf tweets; a man of strong opinion, but I won't argue with that. He took the time to share his thoughts, and I appreciate that....
I've noticed the variations in those units...almost as if Inf was working out the details 'on the fly'. Perhaps the lower cost driver made for a 'difficult gestation', which I can attest to.
I wonder if jplesset had any experience with those units? Maybe after his time with them....
The 'spoof' pair I've made called for some 'on the fly' 'design adaptations' (now, there's a 'buzz phrase' available for use/abuse *L*); to keep the vc centered, the old cone is cut into an 8 'spoke' pattern... the adhesive attaching the cone to the vc 'drifted into the gap between coil and center, requiring application of MEK with a #00 brush, followed by a Q-tip and cotton mop up. Fortunately, a successful bit of 'surgery'...
Price-wise, these drivers are probably not much better than the original Inf units they're modeled after. Your use of a Seas was an infinitely (pun noted and intended) better choice. And if I'm satisfied with even so-so results, I'll ramp up to a better driver for the next round...
One could do them on a production level, but it would require identical jigs for alignment, esp. during the 'set' time for the adhesive selected....esp. one that doesn't 'drift' on one....
*L* I haven't forgotten the Pellon, I'm just being 'frugal' (i.e., cheap) by considering the fuzzy Velcro. And since it'd be applied 'post forming' of the cone, it'd be a 'trial by tweezers' to apply inside of the cone. And I'd like to avoid heat treatments too...don't know how my cone seam adhesive routine would respond to heat, and would rather not find out the hard way.
'Density Issues' (Velcro vs. felt) might be a factor, but I think I'll elect to use a double-faced adhesive that would allow me to swap the materials out. If you can't be sure, get devious. *L*
2003? *L* Ohm blew it off, IMHO.
I've chatted up that guy who repairs the Inf tweets; a man of strong opinion, but I won't argue with that. He took the time to share his thoughts, and I appreciate that....
I've noticed the variations in those units...almost as if Inf was working out the details 'on the fly'. Perhaps the lower cost driver made for a 'difficult gestation', which I can attest to.
I wonder if jplesset had any experience with those units? Maybe after his time with them....
The 'spoof' pair I've made called for some 'on the fly' 'design adaptations' (now, there's a 'buzz phrase' available for use/abuse *L*); to keep the vc centered, the old cone is cut into an 8 'spoke' pattern... the adhesive attaching the cone to the vc 'drifted into the gap between coil and center, requiring application of MEK with a #00 brush, followed by a Q-tip and cotton mop up. Fortunately, a successful bit of 'surgery'...
Price-wise, these drivers are probably not much better than the original Inf units they're modeled after. Your use of a Seas was an infinitely (pun noted and intended) better choice. And if I'm satisfied with even so-so results, I'll ramp up to a better driver for the next round...
One could do them on a production level, but it would require identical jigs for alignment, esp. during the 'set' time for the adhesive selected....esp. one that doesn't 'drift' on one....
Visited my local Habitat for Humanity this am...a pair of Altec's (6" woofs w/a passive, dome tweets) for 35$, a pair of Cerwin-V's (entry level, 6" w/dome) for 45$ (too much)...
If they sit around long enough, the price drops +/- $10/wk. I'll just be patient...like a vulture...*L* Fresh meat for my grinder.
Our local HH is #2 in the country...probably due to the amount of home renovation donations that come in and go out. Anything worth having doesn't stick around long.
BTB, if you'd like any stone slabs suitable for diy'ing a killer equipment rack, I've got a countertop biz next door to us. If you saw their 'trash heap', you just might get sweaty palms. I made mine from two slabs supported by 4x6 posts & 2x6 crossmembers that has to be taken apart to be moved, and Still requires two to move the parts. And you don't want to bump into it with bare feet, no....
One man's trash in another's 'opportunity' *L*.
If they sit around long enough, the price drops +/- $10/wk. I'll just be patient...like a vulture...*L* Fresh meat for my grinder.
Our local HH is #2 in the country...probably due to the amount of home renovation donations that come in and go out. Anything worth having doesn't stick around long.
BTB, if you'd like any stone slabs suitable for diy'ing a killer equipment rack, I've got a countertop biz next door to us. If you saw their 'trash heap', you just might get sweaty palms. I made mine from two slabs supported by 4x6 posts & 2x6 crossmembers that has to be taken apart to be moved, and Still requires two to move the parts. And you don't want to bump into it with bare feet, no....
One man's trash in another's 'opportunity' *L*.
Unfortunately, I left Infinity for one of their dealers before the Walsh tweeter happened, so my experience was all as a dealer. Our experience was only with the very first generation, which we ended up sending back. This was all at about the time when Infinity's golden ear, Arnie Nudell had a very bad auto accident, and was laid up for many months. We figured that without his ear, things just weren't going to sound right. 'Way back then, Infinity really didn't have much test equipment. Remember, this was 1972-1973 era, and Infinity was a small company.
Hi Jay, and yes, that's (your tenure period @ Inf) kinda what I suspected. I wonder what those tweeters could have been or become if Nudell had more of a hand/ear into them...or even if they'd occurred at all. The physical nature of them, and how they were placed on the cabinets, just made them a sitting duck for damage. And the foam infill struck me, then and now, as seeming counterproductive considering the frequency range they were expected to cover...
My 'spoofs' initially will have no infill or damping. Mounting them 'upside down' (vc/magnet 'butt up') will at least offer some protection from the 4 mounting struts. I am going to leave a gap between them and the 'mid-range' units below them to allow for placing various 'matts' of foam of varying densities to see if there's any benefit gained or lost there...
*L* I'm posting at an unusual (for me) time frame, as Ev and I are taking the day off. She's off planting at our property, having given Home Despot and Lowes 3 figures each, one happy clam her.... Except for the woman that raided her cart of a rose (the last one, of course) that she'd found of an atypical variety. That kinda burnt her hair....*L*
Me? I get to mix some 'honey don'ts' with some 'honey do's', so I'm getting to enjoy the day, too...
"Take something out of the freezer for dinner."
"Nobody I'd want to take out fits in there...."
(*Evil glance* from the light of my life)
*G* We've all been there...
My 'spoofs' initially will have no infill or damping. Mounting them 'upside down' (vc/magnet 'butt up') will at least offer some protection from the 4 mounting struts. I am going to leave a gap between them and the 'mid-range' units below them to allow for placing various 'matts' of foam of varying densities to see if there's any benefit gained or lost there...
*L* I'm posting at an unusual (for me) time frame, as Ev and I are taking the day off. She's off planting at our property, having given Home Despot and Lowes 3 figures each, one happy clam her....
Except for the woman that raided her cart of a rose (the last one, of course) that she'd found of an atypical variety. That kinda burnt her hair....*L*Me? I get to mix some 'honey don'ts' with some 'honey do's', so I'm getting to enjoy the day, too...
"Take something out of the freezer for dinner."
"Nobody I'd want to take out fits in there...."
(*Evil glance* from the light of my life)
*G* We've all been there...
You must be getting your Velcro at much better prices than I can find! Since the stuff comes in strips like tape rather than sheets, a closer look at BudP's methods is in order IMO.
A trip to your local fabric store may prove very useful. Yards and yards of fuzzy stuff to contemplate. Scotch 33 spray adhesive works pretty good, and you can remove it with acetone.
A trip to your local fabric store may prove very useful. Yards and yards of fuzzy stuff to contemplate. Scotch 33 spray adhesive works pretty good, and you can remove it with acetone.
Jay, that garden is hanging over you like Poe's pendulum...and you can hear the weeds taunting...
Glo, you're probably right. I've been thinking inversely, squares as opposed to the absence of...*grimace*
Fuzzy stuff to 'de-fuzz' speakers...who would have guessed? (Well, Bud did...*L*)
3M 33, isn't that the re-positionable 'temp' formulation? I'm down with 77 & 90, won't stay home without them. *L* Have used and abused for decades...
Acetone, mmmm...can't tell you how many synapses I've given up to that stuff. "Use in a well-ventilated space." What?! And give up on the cheap buzz?! Damn...*grumble, grumble*
Glo, you're probably right. I've been thinking inversely, squares as opposed to the absence of...*grimace*
Fuzzy stuff to 'de-fuzz' speakers...who would have guessed? (Well, Bud did...*L*)
3M 33, isn't that the re-positionable 'temp' formulation? I'm down with 77 & 90, won't stay home without them. *L* Have used and abused for decades...
Acetone, mmmm...can't tell you how many synapses I've given up to that stuff. "Use in a well-ventilated space." What?! And give up on the cheap buzz?! Damn...*grumble, grumble*
Hey Gary...you might get your wish fulfilled re graphene sooner than later...
Featured news - Breakthrough in graphene production could trigger revolution in artificial skin development - University of Exeter
Not that it's going to be coming to a Home Depot near you, but...*L* Carbon fiber will become so passe', so 'last week'...
Featured news - Breakthrough in graphene production could trigger revolution in artificial skin development - University of Exeter
Not that it's going to be coming to a Home Depot near you, but...*L* Carbon fiber will become so passe', so 'last week'...