dlr said:
Why is it a cop-out?
I don't believe that physics are being violated (they can't be). I do believe that something is happening that we don't understand yet* -- subtle FR & added mass do not explain the magnitude of the improvement (i am well familar with both).
*a good example of the pushing forward of scientific frontiers was when Eibstein extended Newton's theory of gravity -- things were being discovered that violated the then accepted laws of Newtonian physics
And at least i am doing something toward pushing our knowledge forward so that we can gain an understanding of what EnABL is doing by providing drivers for people better equiped than me to examine.
I've been listening to EnABLed drivers for 6 months. Bud has been for over 30. It is quite a change and it takes sometime to get your head around it all (ie unlearning 40 years of aclimatization to whatever artifical artifact of music reproduction that EnABL dramatically reduces). And there is so much to try.
I was very skeptical about EnABL going in, but i thankfully took the step to actually get an EnABLed set of drivers to listen too. After being slapped in the face by them, as outrageous as some of things Bud describes sound, i will not dismiss them until i have taken/had the time to explore the possibilities. And i will continue to help provide the opportunity for others to explore the parts that i have experienced and know help bring people closer to the music.
dave
Bud! Oh! Bud! Stop teasing people. It's not kind.
Kind of gave the game away, here, I think. Not to mention the fact you roll off the low end very fast.
........................................................
You're describing something similar to things I've read about in experiments with phononic crystals.
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&...as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images
http://www.google.com/search?q=+phononic+"solitons"&num=30&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&start=30&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&...as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images
You probably did see a soliton. They're quite common in nature but not usually where we're looking.
..................................................................
Kind of gave the game away, here, I think. Not to mention the fact you roll off the low end very fast.
........................................................
You're describing something similar to things I've read about in experiments with phononic crystals.
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&...as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images
http://www.google.com/search?q=+phononic+"solitons"&num=30&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&start=30&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&...as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images
You probably did see a soliton. They're quite common in nature but not usually where we're looking.
..................................................................
dlr,
As usual, thank you.
Now, can you tell me how room resonances are measured and how they are created, or send me to some, at first, simple links that I can read. Not going to modify the wild claims just yet, but by now you know I am willing, so long as there is some path to follow, that does begin to give a clue as to the subjective experience.
Jaques too and dayglow orange,
Not sure how much of the thread you have choked down. Most of it is pretty off the wall, when it comes to descriptions of what is experienced with EnABL'd drivers.
By and large it is a lack of "noise", or perhaps more accurately, a retention of the information content of energy that would ordinarily become noise and some modest alterations in FR. We have seen a pair of CSD in blink mode presentation that even gives a visual hint as to the test results of this lack of noise.
I do think that the lack of extraneous energy, as it remains coherently bound up in an EnABL'd driver's output, is the key to the bass performance. If you read about soliton waves and think about what that wave behavior implies, were it's analog to be let loose in a room, as a bass note, you may come to an understanding similar to mine. Or, you may not.
That EnABL blocks, large as they are on a 15 inch woofer, would have the same effect as they do on a tweeter, or a full range driver or a midrange, is hard enough to choke down. That the treated driver would then go on to reduce standing waves in a room is not likely to be within anyones comprehension, until you actually perform the process for yourself and see what comes about.
But, argument is interesting and has been mildly productive in attempting to provide a theory of performance, that is not from my thoughts. Some testing is in the offing and there are a large number of positive responses to EnABLing personal systems. These have been consigned to various forms of delusional behavior, as they really don't fit conventional loudspeaker theory very well. So stick around, ask questions, don't expect very good answers, just yet.
Bud
As usual, thank you.
Now, can you tell me how room resonances are measured and how they are created, or send me to some, at first, simple links that I can read. Not going to modify the wild claims just yet, but by now you know I am willing, so long as there is some path to follow, that does begin to give a clue as to the subjective experience.
Jaques too and dayglow orange,
Not sure how much of the thread you have choked down. Most of it is pretty off the wall, when it comes to descriptions of what is experienced with EnABL'd drivers.
By and large it is a lack of "noise", or perhaps more accurately, a retention of the information content of energy that would ordinarily become noise and some modest alterations in FR. We have seen a pair of CSD in blink mode presentation that even gives a visual hint as to the test results of this lack of noise.
I do think that the lack of extraneous energy, as it remains coherently bound up in an EnABL'd driver's output, is the key to the bass performance. If you read about soliton waves and think about what that wave behavior implies, were it's analog to be let loose in a room, as a bass note, you may come to an understanding similar to mine. Or, you may not.
That EnABL blocks, large as they are on a 15 inch woofer, would have the same effect as they do on a tweeter, or a full range driver or a midrange, is hard enough to choke down. That the treated driver would then go on to reduce standing waves in a room is not likely to be within anyones comprehension, until you actually perform the process for yourself and see what comes about.
But, argument is interesting and has been mildly productive in attempting to provide a theory of performance, that is not from my thoughts. Some testing is in the offing and there are a large number of positive responses to EnABLing personal systems. These have been consigned to various forms of delusional behavior, as they really don't fit conventional loudspeaker theory very well. So stick around, ask questions, don't expect very good answers, just yet.
Bud
FrankWW,
That description is just this system. I have had some very serious bass machines in the past, when I was young and dumb and full of the usual liquids. This really isn't teasing, they all did the same circus tricks. Some, like the Ohm F's, were quite audible outside the building, a good distance away from the speakers themselves.
I will read your links on phononic crystals greedily. I have been meaning to ask you what they were about. As for soliton's, I understand they have an analogue in the way liquids move in plants. They are also found in fjords, where they were first officially noticed, so they certainly are about in nature.
Bud
That description is just this system. I have had some very serious bass machines in the past, when I was young and dumb and full of the usual liquids. This really isn't teasing, they all did the same circus tricks. Some, like the Ohm F's, were quite audible outside the building, a good distance away from the speakers themselves.
I will read your links on phononic crystals greedily. I have been meaning to ask you what they were about. As for soliton's, I understand they have an analogue in the way liquids move in plants. They are also found in fjords, where they were first officially noticed, so they certainly are about in nature.
Bud
Alex from Oz,
What sort of bandaid? The ones with smooth thin plastic skin, or the rough fabric skin?
I looked at a picture of the the thing and that's not much of a flare.
You may have modified the impedance seen at the end of a duct. The impedance at the end of a duct causes some of the sound to bounce from one end to the other causing coloration of sound.
What sort of bandaid? The ones with smooth thin plastic skin, or the rough fabric skin?
I looked at a picture of the the thing and that's not much of a flare.
You may have modified the impedance seen at the end of a duct. The impedance at the end of a duct causes some of the sound to bounce from one end to the other causing coloration of sound.
Alex from Oz said:
I am about to make Sachikos. These are double folded horns with stepped resonators. What if I EnABL'd bothe ends of all the resonators?
Hard to see any possible down-side here, and wouldn't be particularly hard or time consuming. Problem is I wouldn't have a before/after.
Still haven't EnABL'd my phase plugs yet. Getting my ears/brain round the current sound in detail before I do that. The phase plugs themselves made too much difference to let me evaluate EnABL for them.
I think - if EnABLing the phase-plugs makes a difference, then I will also do the resonators in my Sachikos.
OK guys, lots of hyperbole from Bud in his own unique style, but it's still a black art for us all so what the heck! Just read between the lines and don't even try to take his "science" at face value.
Alex,
From my very meager experience with straight axis horns I would suggest you will get a more intense event. The same sort of retention of coherent sound from direct radiators occurred in the horns I treated. And, just as in direct radiators, the dynamic intensity was more evident than in an untreated device of the same type.
Alan Hope,
I have no idea. I do not know what a Sachiko double folded horn with stepped resonators is. Can you provide a link? I can give an uneducated guess if I can make sense out of what it does. I promise you, there will be no "science" involved.
Bud
From my very meager experience with straight axis horns I would suggest you will get a more intense event. The same sort of retention of coherent sound from direct radiators occurred in the horns I treated. And, just as in direct radiators, the dynamic intensity was more evident than in an untreated device of the same type.
Alan Hope,
I have no idea. I do not know what a Sachiko double folded horn with stepped resonators is. Can you provide a link? I can give an uneducated guess if I can make sense out of what it does. I promise you, there will be no "science" involved.
Bud
Bud, I have to go to bed. I have some reservations. I can see phononic crystals theoretically and practically having application as "de-grunging" devices for speakers but I have a feeling this would apply to higher frequencies.
A phononic crystal is a periodic structure having lattice like characteristics analogous to the lattices of crystals which can capture photons. It's quantum theory gone upscale.
Here's where I have problems: the elastic components and gaps in the crystal have to be commensurate in size with the wavelengths they are to filter, guide, or focus. At least, that's my understanding right now.
I'm still mighty suspicious about your room. Do you have a lot of single glazing? I ask because low frequencies go through single panes like grass thru a goose. If you're not generating much in the way of strong LF room modes the bass will indeed sound very good and much louder than with the modes. And if you're generating a gazillion LF modes then again the bass will sound good because of the way the modes' distribution averages out.... The LF room problem is basically not enough modes cause the room isn't big enough.
Have to sleep on the solitons.
A phononic crystal is a periodic structure having lattice like characteristics analogous to the lattices of crystals which can capture photons. It's quantum theory gone upscale.
Here's where I have problems: the elastic components and gaps in the crystal have to be commensurate in size with the wavelengths they are to filter, guide, or focus. At least, that's my understanding right now.
I'm still mighty suspicious about your room. Do you have a lot of single glazing? I ask because low frequencies go through single panes like grass thru a goose. If you're not generating much in the way of strong LF room modes the bass will indeed sound very good and much louder than with the modes. And if you're generating a gazillion LF modes then again the bass will sound good because of the way the modes' distribution averages out.... The LF room problem is basically not enough modes cause the room isn't big enough.
Have to sleep on the solitons.
I didn't ask Bud because his is a theory and I don't frankly follow it. I also don't believe it (or disbelieve it - I simply think it's interesting and I wait for the responses that explain or refute it with concepts - not just ridicule). Your reply, on the other hand, was a direct refutation with no explanation. For that I prefer some kind of discussion, hence my post.
Dave, please don't use my post to make this kind of complaint. If you've read my posts then you know I don't believe his claims (or disbelieve them). How many times do I have to say that?
Carl
Carlp said:
What's to believe? Bud doesn't have a theory, he is hypothesizing without benefit of any support. Throwing out ideas, as it were.
If you look up the description of a Soliton (his "I don't know if this applies" mis-direction), it does not apply to an expanding spherical acoustic wave. Here's a definition:
"...a soliton is a self-reinforcing solitary wave (a wave packet or pulse) that maintains its shape while it travels at constant speed; solitons are caused by a cancellation of nonlinear and dispersive effects in the medium. "
An acoustic wave from a driver is essentially a spherically expanding one, thus the energy on any given axis is diminishing at a known rate due to the dispersion of the energy and the losses in the air. The air is not suddenly made nonlinear nor are any dispersion characteristics altered.
Room resonances are just that, resonances that are cyclic, because the SOURCE of the energy is cyclic. Drivers playing any music do not output a step function, the only way one could create a pulse from a driver. Why should we believe that the enabl process causes "cancellation of nonlinear and dispersive effects in the medium" (air)? It doesn't. It's bogus. An acoustic wave generated by a solitary piston driver in air is creating a dispersing wave. A Soliton, as described above, is a packet or pulse. We are not dealing with packets and pulses.
I'm sorry if you take exception to my general point being in your post. I don't mean to single you out or lump you in with the rest, certainly skepticism is a good thing.
That said, disbelief is appropriate in this case. Not taking a stand, straddling the fence so-to-speak, in the lack of any rigorous or even miniscule direct research into a hypothesis without any foundation serves no one. But I'll try to keep my aggravating posts meant for others in others'. '
'Dave
dlr said:
I'll just add my own unfounded rambling here
Lets say we have a sine wave from a driver in a speaker. Thats where the spherically expanding wave starts. At some point this wave meets some sort of obstracle, then what happens?
Depending on the size and shape of the obstracle my guess is that one of the many different things that can happen is a soliton.
At a minimum there has to be some form of alteration of the original wave.
Hey Bud, heres a crazy one for you to try out
Have you ever EnABL'ed the fabric in front of a driver?
Bud,
I took a lower resolution digital photo and selected "attach file' but I got this error:
"The file that you have tried to attach is too big. The maximum size is 102400 bytes."
How do other people attach photos?
I am not sure about how much clear coat to apply to the driver. Any recommendations??
Paper drivers tend to have a "snappy" sound and are resonant much like metal. While I don't' want to deaden the driver too much, the ringing of the paper seems to be part of the problem. Note the Tang-band spray paints the W3-871s and this is one reason the driver sounds as good as it does. the paint dampens some of the cone ringing from what i understand. So I think this would also work with the larger 4' paper driver.
I took a lower resolution digital photo and selected "attach file' but I got this error:
"The file that you have tried to attach is too big. The maximum size is 102400 bytes."
How do other people attach photos?
I am not sure about how much clear coat to apply to the driver. Any recommendations??
Paper drivers tend to have a "snappy" sound and are resonant much like metal. While I don't' want to deaden the driver too much, the ringing of the paper seems to be part of the problem. Note the Tang-band spray paints the W3-871s and this is one reason the driver sounds as good as it does. the paint dampens some of the cone ringing from what i understand. So I think this would also work with the larger 4' paper driver.
BudP said:
planet10 said:
Hi Bud
It's basically a folded horn for 8" FR drivers, designed by Scott Lindgreen (Scotmoose), following a particular design style called Nagaoko after some Japanese guy who developed this type of loudspeaker.
The horn path follows a stepped expansion which approximates the usual horn shape. Each step - taken alone - forms a resonator which contributes to the sound (I don't fully understand how). The folds in the horn path are deliberately sharp-cornered to help disperse and reduce HF from the horn mouth.
The horn is mirrored above and below the driver - as you can see from the link.
I would value your thoughts!
chuck55 said:
The right coating on a paper cone ties together all the fibres on the surface of the cone to stop/damp the noise that comes from them moving & rubbing together as the cone moves. I have been using puzzlekoat (a particularily flexible PVA) for 30 some years for this purpose. On a small driver you tend to want to use as little as practical to keep from squashing the top end... On a woofer it can be used to add mass if used in quantity. A coating on the back will make a sandwich layer structure that is stiffer (not good for a FR, useful sometimes on a woofer)
dave
If you recall, Limono posted some time ago about his experience with his Lowther DX4 drivers that were "Enabled" by Bud. Limono struggled with the sound of the Enabled drivers in horns, so he tracked me down since I now have my Lowther DX4s mountedi n open baffles (which are inspired by Dick Olsher's Basszilla design, although my bass drivers are also mounted on open baffle). Limono loaned me his Enabled drivers to get my impressions. I found time to create the crossovers and listen to them over this last weekend. Here are my initial impressions:
I should say first that the crossovers that I created were built using moderate to high quality parts (based on the 8 ohm Basszilla design), thus, finding better parts would somwhat further improve the sound. I did not do a frequency sweep yet with the Enabled drivers so I don't know how flat the frequency response is, but it seems from my listening that the frequency response is good.
It seems to me that the Enabled drivers (which are 8 ohm) are improved in dynamics, focus and clarity, including less congestion in complex passages, compared to my unEnabled 15 ohm DX4s (the clarity is starting to approach that of compression drivers). Another change I noticed immediately is that the sound seemed a little more plastic-like on some instruments, however, my perception of that seemed to change with time as I adapted to the Enable drivers. The sound was improved for reproducing horns which, with the Enabled drivers, have a more genuine sound to them. The Enabled drivers seemed to better reproduce microdynamics picking up more of the finer inner detail of the music.
There also seemed to be a perceptible increase in high frequency distortion on some music. In wondering what is going on, there are a number of different theories that I thought up.
One is that the drivers are indeed more transparent and therefore some high frequency distortion which is present upstream in my audio chain or on the recording is more perceptable. However, I really don't think that this is the reason.
A second theory is that one or more of the crossover components is causing this issue. I tried to use parts that would not tend toward harshness, so I am a little skeptical of this as a real reason, but I cannot rule this out.
Another theory is that the conformational coating on the Enabled drivers is breaking up at certain frequencies. This is more likely because there seems to be added harshness that was not there before.
Another theory is that based on the Waterfall plots, the Lowther drivers do seem to rely on breakup modes to reproduce the higher frequencies. While the waterfall plots look terrible, when listening to the drivers, I guess I never heard this so much, perhaps because the paper cone material is very forgiving to such distortion. However, the Enbled drivers seem to be more transparent, and thus may be exposing these breakup modes more readily.
If the conformational coating is causing the harshness problem, would a coating using a different material prevent this harshness from occurring (i.e., C37)? What about using more than one type of coating, thus if a breakup mode is being formed by one coating, perhaps by using a second coating of a different material over the first coating, it could prevent the breakup mode at that one frequency?
Well, these are my impressions and my musing about what I heard. Overall, though, I would have to say that the Lowther DX4 drivers were improved by the Enable treatment, enough, anyways, to post about it.
Retsel
I should say first that the crossovers that I created were built using moderate to high quality parts (based on the 8 ohm Basszilla design), thus, finding better parts would somwhat further improve the sound. I did not do a frequency sweep yet with the Enabled drivers so I don't know how flat the frequency response is, but it seems from my listening that the frequency response is good.
It seems to me that the Enabled drivers (which are 8 ohm) are improved in dynamics, focus and clarity, including less congestion in complex passages, compared to my unEnabled 15 ohm DX4s (the clarity is starting to approach that of compression drivers). Another change I noticed immediately is that the sound seemed a little more plastic-like on some instruments, however, my perception of that seemed to change with time as I adapted to the Enable drivers. The sound was improved for reproducing horns which, with the Enabled drivers, have a more genuine sound to them. The Enabled drivers seemed to better reproduce microdynamics picking up more of the finer inner detail of the music.
There also seemed to be a perceptible increase in high frequency distortion on some music. In wondering what is going on, there are a number of different theories that I thought up.
One is that the drivers are indeed more transparent and therefore some high frequency distortion which is present upstream in my audio chain or on the recording is more perceptable. However, I really don't think that this is the reason.
A second theory is that one or more of the crossover components is causing this issue. I tried to use parts that would not tend toward harshness, so I am a little skeptical of this as a real reason, but I cannot rule this out.
Another theory is that the conformational coating on the Enabled drivers is breaking up at certain frequencies. This is more likely because there seems to be added harshness that was not there before.
Another theory is that based on the Waterfall plots, the Lowther drivers do seem to rely on breakup modes to reproduce the higher frequencies. While the waterfall plots look terrible, when listening to the drivers, I guess I never heard this so much, perhaps because the paper cone material is very forgiving to such distortion. However, the Enbled drivers seem to be more transparent, and thus may be exposing these breakup modes more readily.
If the conformational coating is causing the harshness problem, would a coating using a different material prevent this harshness from occurring (i.e., C37)? What about using more than one type of coating, thus if a breakup mode is being formed by one coating, perhaps by using a second coating of a different material over the first coating, it could prevent the breakup mode at that one frequency?
Well, these are my impressions and my musing about what I heard. Overall, though, I would have to say that the Lowther DX4 drivers were improved by the Enable treatment, enough, anyways, to post about it.
Retsel
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