Hi Badman,
I can see your reasoning and that your using an active x/over is very, very interesting.
What kind of active x/over are you using. I shall try the 2-way Berhinger I've already bought but might well try their 3-way as well, if things pan out your way but use a Omoaudio valve pre/buffer - that I have seen on www.cattylink.com.
I can see your reasoning and that your using an active x/over is very, very interesting.
What kind of active x/over are you using. I shall try the 2-way Berhinger I've already bought but might well try their 3-way as well, if things pan out your way but use a Omoaudio valve pre/buffer - that I have seen on www.cattylink.com.
Hello Badman, I see great minds think alike. This is my AMT 3-way concept that currently trying to work the bugs out of. It's got the AMT, a PHL 1120 and a couple 12" IB subs in an open backed box. So far so good, I just wish I had more time to devote to this stuff. Everything seems to take me forever.
Attachments
Black Stuart said:
I'm using a marchand XM126, the dual chassis tube XO. I'm quite fond of it, it gives me flexibility to fiddle and play much more than if I had to do dedicated passive XOs for each driver complement. And I'm *always* playing with speakers
JohnL, You're praying to the OB god a bit more than me- I've not yet convinced myself to try OB bass, mostly due to the width requirement (smallish room). Taking your time is good, don't worry. A stitch in time saves 9, go slow and be happy with the result.
Badman,
this is seriously interesting to me, where can I find info and prices on this Marchand tube x/over.
After studying Rod Elliot's take on passive v active x/overs, there really is no contest. Like you say, to be able to experiment freely with designs without having to go through an expensive trial and error permormance with p[assive x/overs has to be the way to go.
OBs' done right can sound incredible BUT like you say they do need a large room. This is my goal which will now almost certainly be realised in France not Spain (so much corruption and stupidity aka closed minds).
Looking forward to info on the tube x/over.
this is seriously interesting to me, where can I find info and prices on this Marchand tube x/over.
After studying Rod Elliot's take on passive v active x/overs, there really is no contest. Like you say, to be able to experiment freely with designs without having to go through an expensive trial and error permormance with p[assive x/overs has to be the way to go.
OBs' done right can sound incredible BUT like you say they do need a large room. This is my goal which will now almost certainly be realised in France not Spain (so much corruption and stupidity aka closed minds).
Looking forward to info on the tube x/over.
Stuart:
Marchand offers a variety of well-engineered crossover solutions, www.marchandelec.com. I've been very pleased with the device, as well as their customer service. You *do* have to buy new boards for different crossover slopes/frequencies, but you can calculate your own filters, do notch filters and stepped filters, if you're so inclined.
Great toys
Marchand offers a variety of well-engineered crossover solutions, www.marchandelec.com. I've been very pleased with the device, as well as their customer service. You *do* have to buy new boards for different crossover slopes/frequencies, but you can calculate your own filters, do notch filters and stepped filters, if you're so inclined.
Great toys
Dshortt9. Is your crossover something that you calculated and designed yourself? I am going to be doing something similare using a pair of RF3II's. Is that all there is to your crossover? one cap and an inductor? What are the values of those? I am definately an amature here and am glad to see someone has done this with a pair of klipsch that already had a crossover of around 1.8k-1.9k. I'll post my results and pictures here for everyone to enjoy. thanks, stevedshortt9 said:
Hi Kc8vpx, it's time to reactivate this thread!
I agree with Black Stuart when he says to use the AMT with only two ways and to use it at his best in the lowest frequencies.
For myself, there is no prob with the AMT, but much more with the woofer!
I agree with many others for use it with a high efficiency woofer to match the sensitivity of the AMT ESS but there is then a real problem (or even more):
- to find a woofer which goes straight until about 2000 hz (for cut at about 1200 to 2000: it depends on the filter order : the best would be 18db/okt at about 1200 hz).
But remember, because of the dispersion the cut off should be min. 2000 at min 30° dispersion.
So if you will find a good 15'' who matches this, not only on paper and with enough energy: then OK, but tell me the réference of this woofer!smash:
Thats why i am more pointed to choose a 10'' or 12''...because they go higher in freqencies.
- the 2nd prob, is to find a good woofer:
for me, as an audiophile an d passionate by music, the ideal woofer is a respectful driver, which can reproduce all the nuances of music (not only, ''boom, boom'', if you know what I mean) of a piano, a saxo or a violoncello etc....Naturally it depends most of the time of what music you are listening
So, for me, it must be a fast woofer (remember we are speaking from AMT: a fast, very fast driver...!) and so we must find a driver with a very light cone....and which is powerful with enough level till the low frequencies : must have also a good and big ''propulsion'' or driver...
The best thing is also to drive with an aktive filter (should be not so difficult) and so, find two good amplifier (for a 2 way system) which are not so overpointed in the highs and which are smooth because a harsh amp would not meet with the AMT ESS.
Thats my overall analysis of the AMT (but there is much more to say).
Let me present my system (which is quite not definitive....and should evoluate to an 5.1 system with 5 ESS).
Drive: Micromega CD3.1
DAC: Perpetual audio P3A
For home cinema and SACD: Sony DVP NS9100ES in digital stereo interconnection with the DAC
Préamp: passive (selector + Noble volume attenuator)
Aktive Filter: Kaneda circuit (from La revue de l'audiophile- french), a very fine and transpoarent filter: still in work after 20 years and always on ! crossing at 800hz (!) and 18db/octave butterworth.
This part is in progress (I am about to buy a filter -for the 3 front 2ways - from Thel audio in Germany)
Amps: 2 amps (one for each channel): Naim NAP 180 ( really powerful but a little bit transparent ! ) a third amp is waiting for the center channel.
And finally the drivers in a 100l ultrastrong bass reflex enclosure with:
- 12'' ultrafast bass (big motor) with light paper cones (coated special): made specially by Davis acoustique (french constructor) for the MHP in Paris.
- AMT V (yellow membran)
-The center channel, made in the same way...(3 AMT on progress...)
A 15'' FOCAL subwoofer on constructioni
- some cables (for a next reply, could be told in another thread )
All the system is in a room of about 45 m2 (on corner), and was measured and corrected with a friend on PC and after, optimized ''à l'oreille'': with the ears...
I must say that this system is ultra fast even in the bass and so powerfull even cut at 800 hz!! which can reproduce the finest violin without some cut between the drivers (thats a big point) and If I turn the volume, it can be so powerfull that your ears will fear!!!
What can be better: there is always some thing to do and perhaps should I work on my passive préamp, change and match some cables (important, but I aml not the guy who spends the money with esoteric and expensive cables)...
Allways intersted by your replies (but excuse my poor english)
I agree with Black Stuart when he says to use the AMT with only two ways and to use it at his best in the lowest frequencies.
For myself, there is no prob with the AMT, but much more with the woofer!
I agree with many others for use it with a high efficiency woofer to match the sensitivity of the AMT ESS but there is then a real problem (or even more):
- to find a woofer which goes straight until about 2000 hz (for cut at about 1200 to 2000: it depends on the filter order : the best would be 18db/okt at about 1200 hz).
But remember, because of the dispersion the cut off should be min. 2000 at min 30° dispersion.
So if you will find a good 15'' who matches this, not only on paper and with enough energy: then OK, but tell me the réference of this woofer!smash:
Thats why i am more pointed to choose a 10'' or 12''...because they go higher in freqencies.
- the 2nd prob, is to find a good woofer:
for me, as an audiophile an d passionate by music, the ideal woofer is a respectful driver, which can reproduce all the nuances of music (not only, ''boom, boom'', if you know what I mean) of a piano, a saxo or a violoncello etc....Naturally it depends most of the time of what music you are listening
So, for me, it must be a fast woofer (remember we are speaking from AMT: a fast, very fast driver...!) and so we must find a driver with a very light cone....and which is powerful with enough level till the low frequencies : must have also a good and big ''propulsion'' or driver...
The best thing is also to drive with an aktive filter (should be not so difficult) and so, find two good amplifier (for a 2 way system) which are not so overpointed in the highs and which are smooth because a harsh amp would not meet with the AMT ESS.
Thats my overall analysis of the AMT (but there is much more to say).
Let me present my system (which is quite not definitive....and should evoluate to an 5.1 system with 5 ESS).
Drive: Micromega CD3.1
DAC: Perpetual audio P3A
For home cinema and SACD: Sony DVP NS9100ES in digital stereo interconnection with the DAC
Préamp: passive (selector + Noble volume attenuator)
Aktive Filter: Kaneda circuit (from La revue de l'audiophile- french), a very fine and transpoarent filter: still in work after 20 years and always on ! crossing at 800hz (!) and 18db/octave butterworth.
This part is in progress (I am about to buy a filter -for the 3 front 2ways - from Thel audio in Germany)
Amps: 2 amps (one for each channel): Naim NAP 180 ( really powerful but a little bit transparent ! ) a third amp is waiting for the center channel.
And finally the drivers in a 100l ultrastrong bass reflex enclosure with:
- 12'' ultrafast bass (big motor) with light paper cones (coated special): made specially by Davis acoustique (french constructor) for the MHP in Paris.
- AMT V (yellow membran)
-The center channel, made in the same way...(3 AMT on progress...)
A 15'' FOCAL subwoofer on constructioni
- some cables (for a next reply, could be told in another thread )
All the system is in a room of about 45 m2 (on corner), and was measured and corrected with a friend on PC and after, optimized ''à l'oreille'': with the ears...
I must say that this system is ultra fast even in the bass and so powerfull even cut at 800 hz!! which can reproduce the finest violin without some cut between the drivers (thats a big point) and If I turn the volume, it can be so powerfull that your ears will fear!!!
What can be better: there is always some thing to do and perhaps should I work on my passive préamp, change and match some cables (important, but I aml not the guy who spends the money with esoteric and expensive cables)...
Allways intersted by your replies (but excuse my poor english)
Louqous - Bonne Annee
I read your post with interest, you made some very good points
I had wanted to use 15" woofers and had been advised that pro woofers were better. I located some at Parts Express in the USA but did not want to pay more for shipping than the woofers cost. This was maybe very silly and they have now all been sold - c'est la vie!
I am however very interested in these 12" Davis acoustique woofers how much are they for (1) piece and can you give a website and/or address for these.
I have not used solid state for many years now but have 2 x KT88/6550 amps push/pull amps - so no harshness.
Votre Anglais, c'est tres bien.
I read your post with interest, you made some very good points
I had wanted to use 15" woofers and had been advised that pro woofers were better. I located some at Parts Express in the USA but did not want to pay more for shipping than the woofers cost. This was maybe very silly and they have now all been sold - c'est la vie!
I am however very interested in these 12" Davis acoustique woofers how much are they for (1) piece and can you give a website and/or address for these.
I have not used solid state for many years now but have 2 x KT88/6550 amps push/pull amps - so no harshness.
Votre Anglais, c'est tres bien.
Bonjour Black Stuart,
et bonne année aussi (I see you have a good french! if you love good food (and perhaps Wines...), you should know a little bit french !§§
I see that you are from the province of Granada: I was near there for Holidays last november and two years ago (in an appartment near Marbella... but I prefere thte country inside.....
Speaking from speakers, as I said I think, for the reasons I related, that a 15'' woofer is not a good choice and especially not a sono woofer because the cone is to heavy (until you only want to hear boom boom music...) .
Anyway, the boomer I told you is called 31TPA 12 G from Davis acoustique and it can be bought only through the Maison du haut Parleur in Paris:
http://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/
et bonne année aussi (I see you have a good french! if you love good food (and perhaps Wines...), you should know a little bit french !§§
I see that you are from the province of Granada: I was near there for Holidays last november and two years ago (in an appartment near Marbella... but I prefere thte country inside.....
Speaking from speakers, as I said I think, for the reasons I related, that a 15'' woofer is not a good choice and especially not a sono woofer because the cone is to heavy (until you only want to hear boom boom music...) .
Anyway, the boomer I told you is called 31TPA 12 G from Davis acoustique and it can be bought only through the Maison du haut Parleur in Paris:
http://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/
Excuses, I sended my last post before terminated... so I will finish
Bonjour Black Stuart,
et bonne année aussi (I see you have a good french! if you love good food (and perhaps Wines...), you should know a little bit french !
I see that you are from the province of Granada: I was near there for Holidays last november and two years ago (in an appartment near Marbella...) but I prefere the country inside....
We love this part of Spain.
Speaking from speakers, as I said I think, for the reasons I related, that a 15'' woofer is not a good choice and especially not a sono woofer because the cone is to heavy (until you only want to hear boom boom music...) .
Anyway, the boomer I told you is called 31TPA 12 G from Davis acoustique. The cone in paper has only 15 gr weight!!!
It can be bought only through the Maison du haut Parleur (MHP) in Paris: with special ordering: he can not be found in the prices catalog, but I bought 3 of them two years ago + 2 AMT V (I bought three other 1 year before) with a price of about 300 € one piece: if you take two, perhaps you can negociate (myself, I beneficiated from 10% rebate).
adresshttp://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/
Ask Mr Bruno Gest, a very nice guy (I don't know if he speaks english).
The woofer is part, with the ESS AMTV and a passive filter, of a kit named Albedo which is selled 1 030 €.
I can give you thre plans of the filter (if you try in passive) but I was not convinced because he mades the music not so relaxed when I builded it so I turned in active.
I am actually buiding a new and more simple passive filter, just for fun.
If some one is interested, I can send the frequency response of the two drivers, measured in my roomsome and together with active filter (without correction).
I enclose a photo of my system (when it was in stereo only: not mutichannel)
Bonsoir
Bonjour Black Stuart,
et bonne année aussi (I see you have a good french! if you love good food (and perhaps Wines...), you should know a little bit french !
I see that you are from the province of Granada: I was near there for Holidays last november and two years ago (in an appartment near Marbella...) but I prefere the country inside....
We love this part of Spain.
Speaking from speakers, as I said I think, for the reasons I related, that a 15'' woofer is not a good choice and especially not a sono woofer because the cone is to heavy (until you only want to hear boom boom music...) .
Anyway, the boomer I told you is called 31TPA 12 G from Davis acoustique. The cone in paper has only 15 gr weight!!!
It can be bought only through the Maison du haut Parleur (MHP) in Paris: with special ordering: he can not be found in the prices catalog, but I bought 3 of them two years ago + 2 AMT V (I bought three other 1 year before) with a price of about 300 € one piece: if you take two, perhaps you can negociate (myself, I beneficiated from 10% rebate).
adresshttp://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/
Ask Mr Bruno Gest, a very nice guy (I don't know if he speaks english).
The woofer is part, with the ESS AMTV and a passive filter, of a kit named Albedo which is selled 1 030 €.
I can give you thre plans of the filter (if you try in passive) but I was not convinced because he mades the music not so relaxed when I builded it so I turned in active.
I am actually buiding a new and more simple passive filter, just for fun.
If some one is interested, I can send the frequency response of the two drivers, measured in my roomsome and together with active filter (without correction).
I enclose a photo of my system (when it was in stereo only: not mutichannel)
Bonsoir
Attachments
Resurrect a very old thread? AMT in a new design....
I have been trying to voice a design with an AMT, and I feel adrift without a compass. Setting this up measured flat, or with a couple dB of BBC dip is pretty useless with the dipole AMT shoveling HF energy into the room with great efficiency. 6 dB down on the AMT? Sounds like excessive "reverse" baffle step, but its very hard to tell. I have an active crossover, and have tried everything from flat to -12 dB on the Heil, and all I really know is that flat is too bright and -12 dB is too dull. Anybody ever come up with a typical setup for the AMT that stood the test of time in terms of relative amplitude with the midbass? BTW, the crossover is 4th order LR, nominally crossed at 1200. The midbass pair should be giving me 101 dB half space efficiency according to the data sheets.
Dick
I have been trying to voice a design with an AMT, and I feel adrift without a compass. Setting this up measured flat, or with a couple dB of BBC dip is pretty useless with the dipole AMT shoveling HF energy into the room with great efficiency. 6 dB down on the AMT? Sounds like excessive "reverse" baffle step, but its very hard to tell. I have an active crossover, and have tried everything from flat to -12 dB on the Heil, and all I really know is that flat is too bright and -12 dB is too dull. Anybody ever come up with a typical setup for the AMT that stood the test of time in terms of relative amplitude with the midbass? BTW, the crossover is 4th order LR, nominally crossed at 1200. The midbass pair should be giving me 101 dB half space efficiency according to the data sheets.
Dick
Steve, did you ever finish the RF3II and AMT project?
I have one in process too. My crossover was calculated using a program off the web somewhere and then tweaked by ear. I had to add a pad to the AMT and reduce the output a few db.
AMT is in business again. Check the previous posts for info.
I have one in process too. My crossover was calculated using a program off the web somewhere and then tweaked by ear. I had to add a pad to the AMT and reduce the output a few db.
AMT is in business again. Check the previous posts for info.
Since this is the most thorough of the AMT1 threads, I thought I'd toss a teaser up here. I'm designing an auxiliary dipole horn for the amt1. More than anything else, the idea is to smooth the bottom end loading and try to reduce diffraction somewhat. Sorry for the rough sketchup model, you can see that the roundover must be cut with a compound mitersaw to allow you the bi-dimensional 45 degree angles. I'm still playing with it dimensionally a little bit, I'm thinking I need a 1/2" spacer to maximize the angle of incidence to the roundover, but you get the idea.
Hey badman - I'm interested - but I don't see a drawing on your post.
OK - I see it now - looks like you put it up while I was posting .
Michael (migeO) did some interesting work on a horn for his B&G Neo 3. I can't find the particular thread right now but his web site for some info on the subject is at http://www.kinotechnik.edis.at/pages/diyaudio/DDCD/DDCD_dipole_horn.html
OK - I see it now - looks like you put it up while I was posting .
Michael (migeO) did some interesting work on a horn for his B&G Neo 3. I can't find the particular thread right now but his web site for some info on the subject is at http://www.kinotechnik.edis.at/pages/diyaudio/DDCD/DDCD_dipole_horn.html
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At $350 USD each I won't be stacking - it would be one per side.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-600
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-600
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