I made this audio file to see what I could hear. I chose a fairly full bandwidth, dynamic, mono impact (door hit) at 48khz (my highest sample rate) and put it in a stereo track. Then I delayed one side of the sound and played the original then the delayed one, one after another a few times. I did this 4 times with delays of 1, 2, 4, and 10 samples, about 20, 40, 80 and 200 us. I can hear a difference at 20us (maybe) with HPs but thru the speakers not until 80us. A long way from 1.5us. Your mileage may vary and I hope the conversion to mp4 didnt mess things up It didnt sound like it. Ooops messed up the end, it has the 200us delay twice
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Thanks for that. Yes, through headphones it's pretty easy to hear the shift. I think you are doing well to hear it at 80us through speakers. I'm unable to listen through my speakers at the moment, I use chromecast for files but can't cast those files for some reason.
I've managed with the mp4 file. I don't think I can hear 80us but hear a definite shift at 200us
I've managed with the mp4 file. I don't think I can hear 80us but hear a definite shift at 200us
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Over speakers Its vary subtle at the lower delays, moving your head while listening can change things. It might even be handy for testing speaker imaging, but probably needs a few more delays in between the ones I made. And there might be better sounds, some say tones, but I find tones harder to localize. Some studies say 5us is audible over speakers but they must have the right setup and sounds, my 80us is a long way from that.
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Over stereo speakers? I'd like to see that, I've only read that relating to a single source. What I find interesting is taken to an unrealistic extreme of 10ms here Stereo Perception, Sound Localization & Auditory Cues the sound shifts completely to one side as if there's no sound coming from the other speaker, I presume this demonstrates the precedence effect?
With speakers 3m away and a head width of 20cm a 1 degree shift gives a length difference of 6.4mm or 2.1 us. But thats only a image shift of 5cm from 3m away. Get some one to snap there fingers that far away and move back and forth that 5cm. I would have trouble hearing any difference. And this goes out the window with 2 sources. I don't notice anything till about 80us. These tests where done with headphones.
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Theres a lot more happening at those longer delays. They start sounding like reflections, so we think there not part of the original location. This delays have been used in music production ever since tape delay was first used. Don't know anyone who uses the us delays in music, although some of the digital effects plugins might, like the Doppler effect. The only place small delays are used is in spaced stereo pairs of mics. They will pick up these us delays the same as your ears. But they aren't used much.
Quote from: Understanding Distortion: A Look At Electronics, Part 2 | Wall of Sound | Audio and Music Reviews
“Not all of the various types of distortion exhibited by electronics can be demonstrated by sinusoidal test tones, nor under steady operating conditions, alone. It has been devised that during years of audio component engineering and research design, this has been one of many great lessons. An interesting portion of this casual article may be that of the dynamic classifications of distortion, as they demonstrate that static measurements do not always reflect the complete behavior of the dynamic modulus like we encounter in music reproduction.
In other words, the tests we see online and in brochures are those of steady-state sinusoidal tones, and they focus more upon the behaviors that are only seen as a signal continues onward. However, musical signals initiate, cease, or otherwise change. No two arrangements behave in an identical manner under all conditions.
All audio waveforms are comprised of carrier waves and additive and subtractive components, and therein the alteration of shape, proportion and frequency forms the final dynamic audio product. Those measurements serve to better reflect the way electronic products reiterate audio waveforms. In light of this, it is interesting that even in this day in age, some still assume that two to three static tests are descriptive of the device in its entirety. ”
“Not all of the various types of distortion exhibited by electronics can be demonstrated by sinusoidal test tones, nor under steady operating conditions, alone. It has been devised that during years of audio component engineering and research design, this has been one of many great lessons. An interesting portion of this casual article may be that of the dynamic classifications of distortion, as they demonstrate that static measurements do not always reflect the complete behavior of the dynamic modulus like we encounter in music reproduction.
In other words, the tests we see online and in brochures are those of steady-state sinusoidal tones, and they focus more upon the behaviors that are only seen as a signal continues onward. However, musical signals initiate, cease, or otherwise change. No two arrangements behave in an identical manner under all conditions.
All audio waveforms are comprised of carrier waves and additive and subtractive components, and therein the alteration of shape, proportion and frequency forms the final dynamic audio product. Those measurements serve to better reflect the way electronic products reiterate audio waveforms. In light of this, it is interesting that even in this day in age, some still assume that two to three static tests are descriptive of the device in its entirety. ”
Great marketing piece! Lots of impressive words and sentences, no content.
Impressive how people who do not understand the subject can still write stuff that on first sight looks OK.
Of course it is just words, no reasoning, no facts, just unsubstantiated wrong ideas, but hey, it's entertainment!
Give the author a cigar.
Jan
Impressive how people who do not understand the subject can still write stuff that on first sight looks OK.
Of course it is just words, no reasoning, no facts, just unsubstantiated wrong ideas, but hey, it's entertainment!
Give the author a cigar.
Jan
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"comprised of carrier waves and additive and subtractive components, and therein the alteration of shape, proportion and frequency forms the final dynamic audio product."
... still, these are just sinus, limited by the systems dv/dt.
But sure, there is a dynamic aspect that is different compared to a single steady sinus where the power system feeding and the signal carrying circuit may com into a harmonious relation. This harmonious state may be interrupted by a transient causing a temporary imbalance between the consumer and the power feeder du to reactive components involved in the power feeding system of consumer and provider. This might be a reason to look for a more resistive power feeding concept i.e. one without/less L or C involved - like a battery?
//
... still, these are just sinus, limited by the systems dv/dt.
But sure, there is a dynamic aspect that is different compared to a single steady sinus where the power system feeding and the signal carrying circuit may com into a harmonious relation. This harmonious state may be interrupted by a transient causing a temporary imbalance between the consumer and the power feeder du to reactive components involved in the power feeding system of consumer and provider. This might be a reason to look for a more resistive power feeding concept i.e. one without/less L or C involved - like a battery?
//
One feels that the author understands the subject. Jan, can you finally familiarize yourself with the content of your work done with the right ideas and having a declared total power bandwidth of 10 MHz
You wrote that it was difficult, but you did it
regards
Petr
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What he writes fits what you want to hear. His Bio is the wooliest I have seen in a long time Joel | Wall of Sound | Audio and Music Reviews
I have a very strong feeling that the author does not understand the subject. The reason is that he uses all kinds of strong words but doesn't make any factual case, never clearly explains what he means. He never gets further than general statements that can mean anything you want. That is a clear sign of knowing the words but not understanding the issue.
For instance, he wrestles with audio being (or not) a bunch of sine waves. Clear indication he does not understand spectrum analysis and FFT process. If he did, he would realize that ALL audio (all signals whatever, actually) can be separated in, and constructed from, sine waves.
Jan
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http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~msallen/Allen-Mayes-NLDetectTruncFFT-2010-PrePubVer.pdf
I guess physics does not matter - when being condesending and insinuating that everyone who deos not agree with you is an uneducated hack - is so much more fun.
Obviously we who do not believe the old (and long abandoned) dogma that music is all sinewaves because the hillarious circular logic that FFT shows that everything is sinewaves while not being capable to do anything else. FFT is a great tool to analyze steady state signals, and in order to use FFT on music you have to average out the signal - effectivly removing the exact nonlinear behaviour that FFT is incapable to correctly analyze.
People who very fast resort to condesending and demeaning insinuations instead of contributing to a meaningfull and informative discussion on a forum just show their own fear of challinging their own dogmas.
I guess physics does not matter - when being condesending and insinuating that everyone who deos not agree with you is an uneducated hack - is so much more fun.
Obviously we who do not believe the old (and long abandoned) dogma that music is all sinewaves because the hillarious circular logic that FFT shows that everything is sinewaves while not being capable to do anything else. FFT is a great tool to analyze steady state signals, and in order to use FFT on music you have to average out the signal - effectivly removing the exact nonlinear behaviour that FFT is incapable to correctly analyze.
People who very fast resort to condesending and demeaning insinuations instead of contributing to a meaningfull and informative discussion on a forum just show their own fear of challinging their own dogmas.