Thanks much JJ, I would like to try that, and yes that would be great for Yamaha, for sure. I really don't understand why the miniDSP would need to be calibrated again, it is a calibrated mic, as long as you do that step, as you know, and I do. Can you provide more info please?
I don't mind buying a new one that will work with the miniDSP, if you have any info about that. It's not that I am loaded or anything, but I setup a special business account for this product, so when anything is required to help the old FHAG, I spend, and I always buy new.
I remember awhile ago, I was just starting REW, and I sent some data to Art. He said that looks way to good, very flat FR. I though, uh-oh what did I screw up. I think it was a sweep, and it was certainly flat, because somehow I managed to limit the REW dB measurement at I think about 50 Hz. The sweep was I think 45-49 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, or something like that. I fixed it and sure enough the hill came back.
After using REW for a while, I came to understand how you could get pretty tricky with it, if that is the kind of person you are, I wonder how much "marketing" is done with products that are sold.
Leo Durocher said statistics are like loose women, you can do whatever you want with them, I think this is in the same general category.
That said, I am very honest with my data (and I think most people are). I need to see mistakes and own up to them, whether it is data, designs, builds...
and I was "exploring" some new areas in REW very recently, and I am pretty good at smacking the wrong screen icon, sooo, it is either that, or my mic is on the fritz, again. Hard to believe, I just bought and calibrated it, worked well last weekend. Plus I have about 50 other measurements that are consistent, this last measurement is suspect, I will find the problem.
This afternoon I setup my guitar in my dining room. It is 22 feet long, by 12 feet wide, with 11 foot tall ceilings (old house). Pretty good size room, bigger than my office I usually record and play in. Man the FHAG on volume 7 was bouncing off the walls beautiful, I think the best I ever heard this guitar, what a joy. All tone controls on the amp where on zero, no chorus, no reverb. Both pickups were on max. There is no way in hell that was only 5 dB louder than the guitar without the horns, more like 30 dB louder, as I have measured many times before.
I am going on vacation, so I will solve the problem when I get back, tonight I rock, again! CUBS WIN!!
I don't mind buying a new one that will work with the miniDSP, if you have any info about that. It's not that I am loaded or anything, but I setup a special business account for this product, so when anything is required to help the old FHAG, I spend, and I always buy new.
I remember awhile ago, I was just starting REW, and I sent some data to Art. He said that looks way to good, very flat FR. I though, uh-oh what did I screw up. I think it was a sweep, and it was certainly flat, because somehow I managed to limit the REW dB measurement at I think about 50 Hz. The sweep was I think 45-49 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, or something like that. I fixed it and sure enough the hill came back.
After using REW for a while, I came to understand how you could get pretty tricky with it, if that is the kind of person you are, I wonder how much "marketing" is done with products that are sold.
Leo Durocher said statistics are like loose women, you can do whatever you want with them, I think this is in the same general category.
That said, I am very honest with my data (and I think most people are). I need to see mistakes and own up to them, whether it is data, designs, builds...
and I was "exploring" some new areas in REW very recently, and I am pretty good at smacking the wrong screen icon, sooo, it is either that, or my mic is on the fritz, again. Hard to believe, I just bought and calibrated it, worked well last weekend. Plus I have about 50 other measurements that are consistent, this last measurement is suspect, I will find the problem.
This afternoon I setup my guitar in my dining room. It is 22 feet long, by 12 feet wide, with 11 foot tall ceilings (old house). Pretty good size room, bigger than my office I usually record and play in. Man the FHAG on volume 7 was bouncing off the walls beautiful, I think the best I ever heard this guitar, what a joy. All tone controls on the amp where on zero, no chorus, no reverb. Both pickups were on max. There is no way in hell that was only 5 dB louder than the guitar without the horns, more like 30 dB louder, as I have measured many times before.
I am going on vacation, so I will solve the problem when I get back, tonight I rock, again! CUBS WIN!!
Also, so JJ you are saying maybe my noise floor is wrong if the mic is on the fritz, yep could be, will measure that again also, but I measured last weekend after I turned off the pool pump, so I don't think it is a problem, but will verify...sorry, almost missed that comment, sentence run on, need to clean up my writing skills! ✏️
There was a young lady from Romania that came to work in my group at Intel. She was having difficulty making measurements, DC measurements, using an oscilloscope or whatever. I grabbed a coin cell off a MB, soldered a couple wires to it, taped it up and gave it to her; "This should always measure about 3V"...
Sometimes, using equipment can get you quite lost and it's always nice to have a reference hanging around. In that case it was volts; with the scope set to 1V/div the trace should hop up ~3 divisions when you connect the battery. Does that? Ok, now we can move on to measure something about 1.5V.
Same with a mic calibrator. Gives a fixed DB SPL level when you stick the mic into it and turn it on. Does REW show 120 DB SPL for input level? Ok, now we can move on to measure something about we think maybe about 90 db, a meter away.
Hello all from the beautiful shores of Lake Michigan, in Western Michigan. Yamaha Music has been granted (49) U.S. patents so far in 2023, as far as I can tell, you have to love that! Just Google Yamaha patents, the best site for me is JUSTIA, shows all their patents, but the he real deal is Google Patents, which gives you all patents from the USPTO (but takes more searching). You can find the patent number on JUSTIA, then type that into Google Patents, much easier. Then hit the PDF link, and it gives you actual patents as printed (shown above, but with many more pages), and granted to the patent Assignee (owner).
Yamaha is putting grooves into stringed instruments with this patent #11,482,197 (granted two days ago). Note the Primary Examiner from the USPTO office is Kimberly R. Lockett, she was the Primary Examiner for my Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar U.S. Patent # 10,777,172.
Man she was great, I called her, and she helped me, but did not cut me any slack, they can't (was my first patent). She has been an examiner for (20) years, and really knows her way around. I figured it out, but man I was sure sweating that first patent!
It is interesting to see it took Yamaha (21) months from file to granted date, definitely a post COVID slowdown for the USPTO, not getting better. So my (16) month wait for patent #3 is not unreasonable.
I just finished patent #4 (bigger instrument), so I need to file that before patent #3 comes knocking at my door for corrections, and oh will there be corrections needed, always.
There are many different patent strategies. For this patent, Yamaha is going long, (21) legal claims! Cover it all, and nobody can best you. BUT same say cover too much, and others can just remove some and make it different. I have heard both sides of the story, but it really comes down to what a judge says, IF you end up in court, and nobody wants that, but it sure does happen, be prepared!
Back from vacation, started rocking on my guitar, sounds great! REW still 85 dB acoustic (OK) and only 90 dB FHAG (no way) WTF? Turned the damn pool pump on again to be safe, that is not it, then I checked dB on my iPhone (which I do not trust much), 105 dB, something is wrong!
Maybe it is my laptop soundcard, or laptop USB? I bought both MiniDSP UMIK-1 mics on Amazon, maybe "inventory items"?
Anyway I just bought a MiniDSP UMIK-2, I see online they have better reviews, not cheap, I am running out of money!
Man the guitar was rocking, no way this is below 110 dB, and the great tone, have measured this MANY times before. Any suggestions? Stay tuned!
Maybe it is my laptop soundcard, or laptop USB? I bought both MiniDSP UMIK-1 mics on Amazon, maybe "inventory items"?
Anyway I just bought a MiniDSP UMIK-2, I see online they have better reviews, not cheap, I am running out of money!
Man the guitar was rocking, no way this is below 110 dB, and the great tone, have measured this MANY times before. Any suggestions? Stay tuned!
Joe,
You did not specify the weighting you used for reading SPL.
If you used "A" weighting, the low E range of the guitar (81Hz) would register about 22dB lower than "C" or "Z" (unweighted, Zero weighting), and since your horns don't produce much output above 1kHz, not much level difference up top where the acoustic output is similar.
The meter's response speed time weighting (slow, fast, impulse, peak) also has quite an effect on response.
Depending on the duration and frequency of the sound source, differences of 40dB (or more) in measured response between different weightings are possible, without even considering the accuracy of the measurement device.
You did not specify the weighting you used for reading SPL.
If you used "A" weighting, the low E range of the guitar (81Hz) would register about 22dB lower than "C" or "Z" (unweighted, Zero weighting), and since your horns don't produce much output above 1kHz, not much level difference up top where the acoustic output is similar.
The meter's response speed time weighting (slow, fast, impulse, peak) also has quite an effect on response.
Depending on the duration and frequency of the sound source, differences of 40dB (or more) in measured response between different weightings are possible, without even considering the accuracy of the measurement device.
Thanks for the assist Art, I will wait for my MiniDSP UMIK-2 and see how that goes, then check out the weighting in REW preferences. I have never changed anything in that menu, so not sure why it would be any different, I will find it.
I go from "no horns" can't hear the guitar outside my house, to "with horns" can hear the guitar outside my house, and my neighbor can hear it inside his house, huge difference, so not too worried about the data right now.
Plus I love the tone, would be pretty much a waste if I hit 110 dB or more, and the tone was ruined. My go to settings still are both channel volumes on 7, both pickup preamps maxed out, all amp tone settings zero (bass, middle, treble, chorus, reverb).
I get into a crazy position and put my ear on the soundboard as I strum a chord (with and without horns). Man you can sure hear the difference, so I know the horns are sending sound into the upper chamber, and vibrating the soundboard even more than usual, unique situation, but man I like it.
I also know this is true because if I turn everything up to 9, it starts to feedback, so penetrating the 1/2" thick birch quite a bit there. Still doing it on 7, but not enough to feedback, the magic setting for me. Sounds very acoustic, but very powerful, major sustain. I will play again tonight, really can't put the damn thing down! October is my month to contact Yamaha again, with more info that hopefully will keep me in their thoughts, fingers crossed!
I go from "no horns" can't hear the guitar outside my house, to "with horns" can hear the guitar outside my house, and my neighbor can hear it inside his house, huge difference, so not too worried about the data right now.
Plus I love the tone, would be pretty much a waste if I hit 110 dB or more, and the tone was ruined. My go to settings still are both channel volumes on 7, both pickup preamps maxed out, all amp tone settings zero (bass, middle, treble, chorus, reverb).
I get into a crazy position and put my ear on the soundboard as I strum a chord (with and without horns). Man you can sure hear the difference, so I know the horns are sending sound into the upper chamber, and vibrating the soundboard even more than usual, unique situation, but man I like it.
I also know this is true because if I turn everything up to 9, it starts to feedback, so penetrating the 1/2" thick birch quite a bit there. Still doing it on 7, but not enough to feedback, the magic setting for me. Sounds very acoustic, but very powerful, major sustain. I will play again tonight, really can't put the damn thing down! October is my month to contact Yamaha again, with more info that hopefully will keep me in their thoughts, fingers crossed!
You won't find the weighting selection in REW "preferences", they are selected on the "SPL Meter" available in "Tools". The weighting selection appears in the upper left portion of the screen, here dB(A)S
"A" weighting, Slow is selected:
The SPL meter also has an 8Hz HP filter available for reducing wind or mechanical noise.
"A" weighting, Slow is selected:
The SPL meter also has an 8Hz HP filter available for reducing wind or mechanical noise.
You know what, I really love to jam, and I really love the guitar. I think music at a party is great, but to me, some of the best listening is when somebody is in need.
You know, need some real music to make us think, feel, go deep. Some of my favorites:
Eva Cassidy - Autumn Leaves
The Rolling Stones - Waiting on a Friend
Be Yourself - Graham Nash
Thorn in My Heart - Kim Richey
Black and White - Three Dog Night
Please Be With Me - Cowboy (Duane Allman)
Father and Son - Cat Stevens
House of Living - Heartsfield
Nature's Way - Spirit
Put the headphones on, and let the rest of the world get out of your mind!
You know, need some real music to make us think, feel, go deep. Some of my favorites:
Eva Cassidy - Autumn Leaves
The Rolling Stones - Waiting on a Friend
Be Yourself - Graham Nash
Thorn in My Heart - Kim Richey
Black and White - Three Dog Night
Please Be With Me - Cowboy (Duane Allman)
Father and Son - Cat Stevens
House of Living - Heartsfield
Nature's Way - Spirit
Put the headphones on, and let the rest of the world get out of your mind!
I don't know what you are asking about the miniDSP.
For REW, you would only activate "Input device is a C Weighted SPL Meter" if you are using a C weighted SPL meter as the input to REW, measurements will then be corrected to remove the low and high frequency roll-offs of the C weighting characteristic you see in the chart in post #748.
Most USB microphones are mono devices and provide the same data on both left and right channels, a single cal file for the device is appropriate for those. If "Separate cal file for each input" is selected individual cal files can be specified for the separate inputs of the device-if you have separate inputs.
You should choose the calibration file for the USB mic you are using, presumably the Umik-1 microphone, until you get a new mic and calibration file and use them.
"The applicant of the present disclosure has found by experiments that the vibration generated in the body 11 in accordance with the vibration of the strings influences the performance sounds of the musical instrument"
Well, Duh! I wonder if the applicant has ever played a vintage Gibson SG? I had one once in my life - too expensive to possibly own these days - and the thing would ring like a bell when tuned to concert pitch. The aspect of guitar body contributing in a positive way to the sound is as basic as crust contributing to the taste of apple pie.
All I can say is nice work if you can get it. Fool around all day with oscillators, exciters, drilling holes and cutting grooves here and there to see the effect on the body resonance spectrum. While some craftsman at Gibson did it that well in the days before integrated circuits were invented. Just look at the roster of players who use that instrument; Trucks, Zappa, Young, Iommi, Townsend...
What's bizarre to me is this patents mention of putting the amplifier into the guitar body - as sort of a side note - connected to an external speaker via cord. What!?! Who as a guitarist would want something like that? What advantage is there - you still have to carry around two things in order to make sound...
Patents are such a word-dance - just throw something in at random that has nothing to do with the idea being patented, just in case I suppose? Couldnt that backfire? Has a pick guard made of resin or metal, preventing the body from getting scratched; really needed to say that? What if someone steals their whole idea but uses a pickguard made of wood because, well, you didnt say wood - or even "any other suitable material". Whoops.
I wonder if a good examiner has a chuckle for themselves from time to time at how WFO some disclosure leaves the applicant.
Yeah JJ, I hear ALL that...kind of crazy really, but when you consider that the Supreme Court splits on cases often, who knows what a judge will do?
I can understand corporations with plenty of bucks having different patent strategies than the average Joe.
I have heard so many different ways a patent should be written, I think nobody knows for sure. Go long? Easy to change something as you mention.
If you have the money to tie anybody up in court, advantage big bucks, going long might work well.
Patent trolls, as I have mentioned before, have a special place on my list of scumbags. I consider them to be the exact opposite of an inventor.
I can see how judges might get interested in a product that is a truly novel invention. You know something interesting, something promising, something that many people might actually enjoy using. I imagine a judge might look at the legal claims in a different light, as opposed to a patent that barely changes an existing product, and has 20 claims, and they are all very long.
Patents are about inventions, and I really think judges may want to see that. Could be a game changer, that all the legal writing in the world can not compete with, that is my strategy. Judges are not practicing lawyers any more, they are judges, than can see right through that ****.
I also see many patents that have downright shitty drawings. Whatever happen to a picture is worth a thousand words. Software patents are the worst in this category, how do you draw a software picture, use a boring flow chart. Some people even say the first coder got the patent, and all the others are just copy cats. I would not go that far, but an interesting point!
I can understand corporations with plenty of bucks having different patent strategies than the average Joe.
I have heard so many different ways a patent should be written, I think nobody knows for sure. Go long? Easy to change something as you mention.
If you have the money to tie anybody up in court, advantage big bucks, going long might work well.
Patent trolls, as I have mentioned before, have a special place on my list of scumbags. I consider them to be the exact opposite of an inventor.
I can see how judges might get interested in a product that is a truly novel invention. You know something interesting, something promising, something that many people might actually enjoy using. I imagine a judge might look at the legal claims in a different light, as opposed to a patent that barely changes an existing product, and has 20 claims, and they are all very long.
Patents are about inventions, and I really think judges may want to see that. Could be a game changer, that all the legal writing in the world can not compete with, that is my strategy. Judges are not practicing lawyers any more, they are judges, than can see right through that ****.
I also see many patents that have downright shitty drawings. Whatever happen to a picture is worth a thousand words. Software patents are the worst in this category, how do you draw a software picture, use a boring flow chart. Some people even say the first coder got the patent, and all the others are just copy cats. I would not go that far, but an interesting point!
Well, there should be some mechanism for scraping off the trolls, who are like a virus on the spirit of the US patent system. Then there's the type of corporate troll who has the cash bags to buy a patent to simply shelve it; ensure that the better idea doesnt compete with the pre-existing worse idea.
Thanks for posting the Yamaha patent - it was an interesting read to see what's goin' on. Still wonder who'd want an amplifier inside their guitar, only to plug to an external speaker anyway.
Thanks for posting the Yamaha patent - it was an interesting read to see what's goin' on. Still wonder who'd want an amplifier inside their guitar, only to plug to an external speaker anyway.
Yeah JJ, whatever happened to unique, useful and nonobvious ideas? I don't consider theft that works around existing laws any of these. Of course people have been stealing from each other for many thousands of years, such a low bar.
Amp in, speaker out, why?
This weekend I test my new MiniDSP UMIK-2, calibrated, weighted, we shall see, and of course jam!
I have (7) big documents ready to submit to the USPTO (Invention Disclosure and Patent Drawings).
I have (10) other docs ready also, but they need some quick editing, all USPTO forms required, maybe this weekend.
After USPTO acknowledges receipt (and they do that in a few days), then I have First Inventor To File Status, and I am safe - in theory.
I can't release any docs, but I can sneak a few interesting pictures here, stay tuned!
Amp in, speaker out, why?
This weekend I test my new MiniDSP UMIK-2, calibrated, weighted, we shall see, and of course jam!
I have (7) big documents ready to submit to the USPTO (Invention Disclosure and Patent Drawings).
I have (10) other docs ready also, but they need some quick editing, all USPTO forms required, maybe this weekend.
After USPTO acknowledges receipt (and they do that in a few days), then I have First Inventor To File Status, and I am safe - in theory.
I can't release any docs, but I can sneak a few interesting pictures here, stay tuned!
Might as well have a reat-time measurement spectrum up on REW during your jam, just so you can glance at it every so often to see how that display reflects what's happening on the room, soundwise. Its display will definitely "follow along" with the scales you're playing; chords too. No harm in getting used to what the tool shows / what shows up on it when playing your guitars outside of a test situation.
Well the miniDSP-2 seems to be doing the job, calibrated, all the lows are back. But I do see the highs are dropping off faster. I think operator error is happening. I mean I still step on a wire once in a while. The 3" drivers are great - see page #2. That is a real iron horseshoe, and tools hanging off the driver magnet. I bet they weight 2-3 lbs. total! That said, the driver connections are a little loose, and my splicing also comes lose after a while. What do you think JJ?
The crazy thing is it sounds great, but the data knows, not perfect connections, and it shows a little. I disconnect one driver, and it still sounds great, wow!
I am going to replace the drivers and all the wiring, to much abuse. Pool pump off, you can sure see that.
I have problems that I have time to fix, but I wonder: what is it like in a live show? I know for a fact every business in the world, and every live show sometimes runs into problems. Nobody wants the outside world to see how the sausage is made in any organization.
Art, do tell us some stories, good and bad, would be very interesting!
The crazy thing is it sounds great, but the data knows, not perfect connections, and it shows a little. I disconnect one driver, and it still sounds great, wow!
I am going to replace the drivers and all the wiring, to much abuse. Pool pump off, you can sure see that.
I have problems that I have time to fix, but I wonder: what is it like in a live show? I know for a fact every business in the world, and every live show sometimes runs into problems. Nobody wants the outside world to see how the sausage is made in any organization.
Art, do tell us some stories, good and bad, would be very interesting!