Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar Patent # 10,777,172

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Thank you JJ! I think it sounds OK also, but I still say live is so much better playing this guitar. I don't know how else to translate feeling a guitar like this into a recording/video, but much better with the new iPhone, I hope. I am really into recording now, and yes I will do more, especially outside, and in a big room like a church, and with video. I think the final chord sustaining long is the best part, you can't hide behind that. But I do have bigger fish to fry.

You have an ear for room acoustics that I do not have, any info you can provide regarding this would be much appreciated. Yes I can Google it, but I would rather hear from the horses mouth.

Talk about wind, Purdue University is 30 minutes up the road, and another 30 minutes beyond that in farm country are absolutely huge wind turbines, probably about 200 of them, boy would I be pissed if they were close to my home.

Anyway I have been jamming with joy, but once again my damn top channel on my amp has gone to ****. It happened before, comes and goes. I was so pissed, I bought the same Roland amp, which worked great, and now the same thing is happening again. WTF? Any ideas anybody?

I love this amp because it has two 4 ohm drivers and just the right wattage, all other amps are either one driver, or 8 ohms, or too much or not enough watts...blah, blah, this one is perfect, need to find the problem!

Also the miniDSP shows its strength in accuracy, the other mics just give 10 dB or more in REW, not to be trusted, I can hear it, done with that.

I had a guy come into my house today from a utility company, unknown to me he was a guitar player of many years. He took one look at my guitars and the guts of the unbuilt guitars with drivers in them, and said what the hell is that! A ten minute convo went on, with much joy from both sides!
 

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I found the answer online, the Rowland AC33 has a limiter circuit that kicks in when a channel clips, that explains it.

Similar to a small circuit breaker I guess, but it does not actually break the circuit, it just powers it down to maybe 20% capacity, from what I can hear, not shut down, just diminished in a major way.

Just one channel, the other channel works just fine. What I don't understand is what turns it off? I completely shut down the amp and it still happens, then days later it is OK again, WTF? I could use some good advice from electrical engineers out there.

The good news is the problem has been found, the bad news is how the hell do I solve it! :ROFLMAO: :unsure: Trying to rock again!

JJ make sure to look at the previous post please, some questions for you my friend.
 
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Ok I have had enough, anybody that thinks a piezo pickup sounds good through any amp, with an acoustic guitar, needs to have their ears checked, what horseshit, the sound is terrible. I tried it AGAIN, with a Taylor and a Guild through a Fender acoustic amp. Great equipment, that is not the problem, it is just the setup that does NOT sound good. I mean if you are looking for the sound of an actual acoustic guitar, but more powerful, not some **** sound that nobody will notice if you are playing with other instruments, or the people that are listening are clueless, I mean come on.

A magnetic pickup sounds much better, but STILL a very thin sound, no rich deep full sound.

I dare anybody to tell me different, and if you do, give me evidence. I will listen to your point of view!

My Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar is down, in the shop for mag and piezo pickup mounting to the body, looks good. I may have some technical glitches here and there (new product), but when it rocks, the sound is incredible, the horns and drivers through the Maple body work!

Anyway, really trying to make the acoustic guitar sound great amped up, and it does, The acoustic guitar just by itself of course is MOST EXCELLENT!
 
Well, that the room effects sound is just as much a bug in the HiFi world as it is recording something. Most casual recordings I see on YT are oblivious to the fact. There's maybe a couple things to try.

1. A ribbon mic, or someone's approximation of one. These mics pickup sound from both the front and the back of the unit. Any sound coming into the rear of the mic is out of phase with that coming into the front. So for sound arriving at both the front and back of the mic, that cancels. Some say these type of mics can reduce the "room" sound.

2. A PZM microphone. Popular at conference room tables, where you want to hear the speaker clearly. These works on a different principle than an ordinary mic. May help, put on the floor in front of you playing while seated on a stool. I bet you could even use one inside your guitar, on that dividing board.

There sure are a myriad of pickups available these days. I too am on a search for a piezo replacement (mostly because of the router operation on the saddle necessary to install an under bridge. Those little round disc jobs, with a blob of bondo on top, just dont do it for me sound wise. There's more styles and approaches than I have money to spend, so it's DIY for me. In fact, I'm headed to the garage right now to try a different instance of a flappy piezo film job with a little weight on the end.

I broke my exciter pickup playing last night. I was trying out striking the guitar top with my fingers as I played. I may have wrenched its little guts out (discovered the "spider" had torn off the voice coil) that way, but I also notice the arms on my standard issue lab bench chair were at the same height as the pickup, so I might have hooked it on that. The guitar has no back you see...anyway, I wrecked it.

I hooked up with my son on Jamulus last night. He commented the guitar sounded good. Unsure if Jamulus would work all the way to Chicago, but its a way for musicians to hook up and jam - over the internet. I hear whatever you're doing over my PC / mixer / monitors and vice versa. There's a server you need to log into and they're sprinkled about the world, I guess.
It's completely free - just download, install, connect and play. There are delays, so it's not perfect, maybe even unusable depending on how far away participants are.
 
Anyway I have been jamming with joy, but once again my damn top channel on my amp has gone to ****. It happened before, comes and goes. I was so pissed, I bought the same Roland amp, which worked great, and now the same thing is happening again. WTF? Any ideas anybody?
Sounds like you may have an intermittent short on the top amp side, check your speaker wiring from the amp to the speaker.
A screw into a speaker wire or a single strand of wire brushing across terminals could lead to most of the power going through the short.

A limiter is not like a circuit breaker, if the amp had a limiter circuit, it would not behave like you describe, it would instantly recover after the input level was reduced.
Also the miniDSP shows its strength in accuracy, the other mics just give 10 dB or more in REW, not to be trusted, I can hear it, done with that.
Screen Shot 2023-11-13 at 1.26.57 PM.png

SPL levels drop at 6 dB per doubling of distance from the mic, the level at the laptop mic would be more than 18dB lower than the other mics. The cardioid pattern dynamic SM 57 has a proximity effect which boosts bass at near distance compared to far.
Your voice recordings don't measure the microphone's frequency response or sensitivity.

Dynamic, ribbon, PZM and condenser microphones are all available in different polar patterns, JJ's points 1&2 in post #784 describe specific patterns.

As far as the setup of your piezo pickup that does NOT sound good, since one can find literally thousands of of other examples that do or do not sound good, look to the pickup mounting location, way it is mounted, impedance termination and the pickup and guitar itself as a few potential explanations to what you are hearing.

Good luck with sorting out the problems- if you have not made access easy to all the electronics, you may want to make that a priority or tracing will be a nightmare.

Cheers,
Art
 
I looked at https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1842220/Roland-Ac-33.html?page=20#manual until my eyes glazed over. It actually has schematics. Seems you have a microprocessor controlled amplifier. There's "mute" and "shutdown" signals going to the class D amp. How the level where the thing shuts off is determined is obscure.

I assume it's in software, as the microprocessor knows things like when it's on battery and when it's on the AC line adapter; probably adapts that function to suit. This correlates somewhat to my reading that it doesnt shut off as frequently when using better batteries...

You would have to probe the "mute" and "shutdown" signals, to see if either change state when the amp does this thing. It may be possible to pull a tiny surface mount component and "jumper" the function to be permanently on; be the hero of the Roland AC33 community. But;

1. I suspect doing that would take rework skills I dont have. (You'd have to ask the lady at work with the microscope...)
2. It'd void your warranty on I assume a fairly expensive little amplifier.
3. The mute / shutdown may be invoked by the uP for other situations as well, like on power-on for example. The uP seems to know when everything happens; perhaps it even mutes the output when you insert the 1/4" guitar jack to avoid an unpleasant "pop".

One thing that might work is an external power supply connected to the battery box. Trick it into thinking it's on battery and they're always full charged. But, that's a maybe, I wouldnt count on it.

I fixed my electro-dynamic shaker soundboard pickup by replacing the torn unit; back in business. I bought the two I suggested above off e-bay, for further experimentation. I remember when I was a kid, first hearing the sound difference between a (popular at the time) crystal phono pickup (piezo) and a (Shure, Pickering, Empire?) magnetic cartridge. It's like that type of sound difference, only on my nylon string guitar.

The "MEAS" weighted flappy piezo film units were a bust, behaving exactly the opposite I'd anticipated; instead of a smooth linear response up from whatever the thing resonated at, I got this tinny, bandpassed completely unusable worse than piezo disc - waste of $25 for 4 of those - though they might be good, nope...
 
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Thank you Art and JJ, appreciate your input as always!

Regarding the limiter circuit, I have seen it noted online by many people, so I know it is there now. I had zero idea it was in this amp, so it surprised me.
Last weekend my guitar was disassembled in my shop, so when I found out about this, I was not able test anything.

Now that I understand, I am pretty sure I can solve the problem. Early on I played master and gain (both channels) pretty much on 7 and really liked it.

I still think that is the way to go, but lately I was pushing the limits just to see how high I could go. I also have a bad habit with this guitar. I almost always play acoustically with the amp off, then with all levels set were I want them, flip the power switch as I am playing. I really like to do this, because you get that before and after power sensation right in your face, really shows the difference, but now I am thinking, bad idea. I can bring it up slowly.

Plus I have switched from mag in guitar channel and piezo in mic/line channel, and opposite that, more experimenting. I am pretty sure one of these setups is much more susceptible to the limiter circuit kicking in.

Since I was unaware, I think I kept repeating the same mistake.

JJ I found the schematic also. I know what a switch/resistor/diode looks like on a schematic, that is about it, the rest is not my field of expertise by a long shot!

Mics, yeah I know, was just messing around to see REW results, sticking with the mini DSP for REW.

As far as a piezo PU, I just don't like the sound. I was using a nice Taylor with their piezo PU, just does not cut it. The Taylor acoustically sounded great! Now this is personal preference, I am sure many people do like them. My goal is to make the acoustic guitar sound as good as it does acoustically, but with far more power. If that is achieved, you can add whatever effects that strike your fancy, no problem, but if that is not achieved first, good luck getting it later. Now the piezo and mag combo, pretty damn good. Then add horns, now we are talking!

Plus I think the mag PU sounds really decent by itself, just a little too electric guitar like for my guitar. A good example of course is the Helpinstill mag PU in a grand piano that Art and I have heard, sounds really great! Plus the grand piano is so powerful to begin with, the PU is not over powering.

Art I did design easy access to electronics in my guitar, and yes I am finding out how critical that is, but it is not by design really. It is more by how this guitar needs to be manufactured, which gives the electronics easy access, so an unintentional win. I can take the entire guitar apart, including the neck off, top off, drivers out in about 1-2 hours, easy.

I have ten songs I can do in a demo (forgot so many over the not playing much years), but I need more. I downloaded Tab for Little Martha, on my list now!
 
If it was me, I'd design a back-plate over the rear speaker chamber, for easy access to those, as one will blow, according to Mr Murphy anyway. Design their attachment so someone can actually get a tool in there to take out the 4 screws...

Also I'd do the "first run" providing only the wiring to an external amplifier (guitar cord) and back into the guitar (speaker cord). That would solve the inside the guitar electronic repair. Probably a bunch of other issues players might have as well ;'). You could have a neck / bridge switch to select mag, piezo or both - plus volumes for each should do it. Tones if you want to drill more holes and have that nice resonant soundboard carry even more potentiometer weight.
 
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I thought that ripping an acoustic guitar completely apart in 1-2 hours was pretty good, maybe I should have checked other Folded Horn Acoustic Guitars to see what they did. :ROFLMAO:

Seriously, I can change the driver mounting, so when Murphy comes along and blows out my driver (or they are discontinued), they can be changed easily. I really do like the traditional method with four screws, they are solid, no vibration, but the bottom two screws are difficult to get at from the back.

I have used three screws only, still great. I would like to rotate the drivers 45 degrees, then three screws would be easy to get at, but then the driver would not fit, my physical space is limited! I am thinking about ideas with gibs or dovetails to drop these drivers in quickly from the back, and then cover to keep in place, but not really sure this would be as good as four screws, I have my doubts.

That said, on my list, legit concern, but not a show stopper.

My low end Martin has a loose 1/4" jack to the piezo. I can not get my arm inside the sound hole far enough to tighten it back up, and it is really loose, and using a tool to hold it is just as bad. The only way to get at it is to remove the glued on soundboard, good luck with that, it sucks, then glue it back on and clamp it. My soundboard screws right off, easy!

Anyway gents, I do appreciate the comments. This weekend I am laser focused on working with the limiter circuit, to get a setup that does not trip it, hopefully not a difficult task, stay tuned!
 
a loose 1/4" jack
Well, what type of jack is it? The "barrel" one that goes through the tail block? I thought those had a screw you could tighten from the outside, with a second threaded "cap" that hides the hex nut.

Its getting the stopping screw set just right so that when the outside hex is tight, the cap part has enough, but not too many threads to cover it up. Getting that barrel through the tail block hole can be a challenge.

If it's just a regular Switchcraft 1/4 jack, which I doubt, I've made a wire with a "T" feature on one end, that allows me to pull it into place, once the long wire end is brought through the hole. Then the challenge is to get that "T" unhooked from the back of the connector, without tearing off the wires...

You can get cases to hold your own batteries. One such case I saw on ebay from Japan actually revealed the voltage; 9.6 to 12V. I'm pretty sure you could take such a case and wire your own 12V power supply into it. 30W at 12V roughly prescribes 2.5A, so get a 5A, 12V power supply. The AC33s computer will think the batteries are topped and - perhaps - not cut out as quickly.

You could also put a compressor in line with the guitar, so that it's dynamics dont trigger the cutout...as often. Unsure if you're singing and playin, or just playin. One person I read told of it only does it when he sings and plays. Maybe if you're not using one channel for vocals, pipe the guitar though both? I see where your weekend of sorting this out is leading...

I went on Jamulus tonight, but the local jam never materialized. There were like 3 people in the whole world on, on a Wednesday night at 8:30 west coast time - all in the US. One was a sax player, who apparently forgot to shutdown his computer, because all you could hear was a fan-like noise in the background. The other two were a guy-girl duet.
 
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That is what I thought would happen, a guy online said he had the same problem in the same guitar channel only, never mic/line channel.

I know there are two boards in the amp, one for each channel, so maybe one limiter on each board??

I will be trying many options this weekend!
 
From the manual: "What is the anti-feedback function? This function suppresses the acoustic feedback that can occur between a guitar or microphone and the amp. It does this by attenuating the sound in the frequency range at which feedback is occurring. Feedback will be suppressed automatically when you use the anti-feedback function"

Anti-feedback function on or off when the issue happens? No one mentions it, just things like "it only does it on my go to guitar". Perhaps the input amplitude is enough to trick the circuit into thinking it's feedback and it attenuates.

"we recommend that you turn the anti-feedback function on before you begin performing" Perhaps everyone just blindly follows this advice and then wonders why the amp pulls back on occasion...
 
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I finally have my pickups in assembly (before this was good sound, bad mounting). See attached, pretty basic.

House guests this weekend and Thanksgiving next weekend (both a joy), so not much testing! Man I really need to blow by those limiters, driving me a little cray!

I did take my saddle down, big mistake. Much fret buzz, almost electric guitar like. The only reason I did this was I thought maybe it diminished the piezo, NOT. What I had before was action height like a big Gibson Electric Hollow Body, that was the ticket, going back to that!

I heard that many people are following this thread, makes sense, getting about 1,000 hits a month, thank you all for your interest!

Art and JJ (Joe) are my mentors, they have stayed with me from the start, and always give me great advice!

I think people check in for my project, but also to see what my mentors have to say!

I attached standard PPT for anybody new to the thread, check it out!
 

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Not liking your screw selection for the holding top on.

Now, one would think someone in this world would make a wood screw, but no one does outside of... kid toys or for something like an all wood crasftsman vise, apparently. You mean to tell me that of all the wood species in the world, nothing is suitable for a light duty removable fastener <1/4" in diameter with machine thread?

Then, I looked for "finish" end fastener - something / anything with a decent looking end on it. Only all the usual commons comes up; apparently no one wants (to sell) a screw with a good looking end on it, as you can just "bury" an ordinary screw end and put on a wood cap. I guess no one has the removable but be great looking situation you have.

The only thing I saw which might be "fair" in appearance is this https://www.vandykes.com/pk/4-antq-copper-pyramid-head-screw/p/204944/s/02007203/. Those against a darker honey colored top or mahogany may be passable for a "customer facing" side of something wood - like a guitar top. Unsure if they make them in machine thread, "of course". They have these flat, wide, black anodized head screws that take a hex drive. Not in brass though - forget it!

It amazes me how you can think of something pretty simple like a removable fastener with a pretty, deco end on it and it's "sorry, Charlie". Not even if someone could sell you their special tool to handle turning it.