bad *** bass driver...
McCauley 6174 should get you some bass if you have the place and the money.
http://www.mccauleysound.com/component_overview.cfm?ID=126 regards Moray James.
McCauley 6174 should get you some bass if you have the place and the money.
http://www.mccauleysound.com/component_overview.cfm?ID=126 regards Moray James.
moray james said:
Speaking of getting the most subwoofer for the money, here is a link to the IB Subwoofer site-
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/
There is a further link to the page where subwoofers are compared for displacement per dollar-
http://www3.sympatico.ca/bonaz/IB-Sub/IBdrv-01.htm
It references many available drivers, size, price and $/Liter displacement!
Was someone in here looking for a big woofer?Electrovoice 30 on Ebay
I'm not associated with the seller, just thought someone might be interested.
I'm not associated with the seller, just thought someone might be interested.
take a look...
here is an 18 inch subwoofer that is selling for what must be a loss at $59.00 Cnd. with a cast basket and lots of magnet. Not an ultra light cone or high efficiency unit but very respectable with lots of xmax travel. For the money you are not going to find an equal. Two of these in a Linkwitz style "W" dipole will get you to below 20 Hz with lots of output. Four such cabinets spaced around your room will controll room modes very well and have enough bass to probably hurt you. Driver cost would be under $500.00 Cnd for the lot. Cabinet size is as small as is possible. If you really wanted to have overkill you could double your driver count up to 16 units and still be under $1000.00 in drivers. Cant see how you can touch that with anything else. Regards Moray James.
http://www.mach5audio.com/product_info.php?products_id=38&osCsid=c7f713c07850906dc94eeb788dd9d5b3
here is an 18 inch subwoofer that is selling for what must be a loss at $59.00 Cnd. with a cast basket and lots of magnet. Not an ultra light cone or high efficiency unit but very respectable with lots of xmax travel. For the money you are not going to find an equal. Two of these in a Linkwitz style "W" dipole will get you to below 20 Hz with lots of output. Four such cabinets spaced around your room will controll room modes very well and have enough bass to probably hurt you. Driver cost would be under $500.00 Cnd for the lot. Cabinet size is as small as is possible. If you really wanted to have overkill you could double your driver count up to 16 units and still be under $1000.00 in drivers. Cant see how you can touch that with anything else. Regards Moray James.
http://www.mach5audio.com/product_info.php?products_id=38&osCsid=c7f713c07850906dc94eeb788dd9d5b3
You are correct on the 18" unit...
yes the 18 inch unit is a stamped basket. Sorry my error as I have been looking at the 10 and 12 inch versions which are cast baskets.
There are many claims that a "W" dipole will drop driver Fs between 7 - 10 Hz on average and sometimes more. The ultra small size is very attractive and the low price of these drivers would permit multiple units to be built and distributed throughout a theater room with minimal impact on space used. Subwoofer plate amps with crossovers can be found for about twice the cost of the driver. All in all a package that is tough to beat even with used drivers. A recone for a decent driver would cost more than one of these. Has to be the best bargain in the subwoofer world today. Can't imagine why there are not a host of threads for possible designs using these things. If size is an issue (with multiple subs) they have a 12 inch cast version at about $45.00 Cnd. each with a Qts of about 0.38 and dual 4 ohm coils. Running just one coil would make this a great choice for OB dipole use or with IB installs.
I have no interest in the business, I am just impressed with the great value offered. Everybody wants a deal well... Regards Moray James.
yes the 18 inch unit is a stamped basket. Sorry my error as I have been looking at the 10 and 12 inch versions which are cast baskets.
There are many claims that a "W" dipole will drop driver Fs between 7 - 10 Hz on average and sometimes more. The ultra small size is very attractive and the low price of these drivers would permit multiple units to be built and distributed throughout a theater room with minimal impact on space used. Subwoofer plate amps with crossovers can be found for about twice the cost of the driver. All in all a package that is tough to beat even with used drivers. A recone for a decent driver would cost more than one of these. Has to be the best bargain in the subwoofer world today. Can't imagine why there are not a host of threads for possible designs using these things. If size is an issue (with multiple subs) they have a 12 inch cast version at about $45.00 Cnd. each with a Qts of about 0.38 and dual 4 ohm coils. Running just one coil would make this a great choice for OB dipole use or with IB installs.
I have no interest in the business, I am just impressed with the great value offered. Everybody wants a deal well... Regards Moray James.
Correct me if i am wrong but to achive such low frequency you need a woofer with a high excursion. I think your best bet it to get a 15" car sub. I would recomend a Cerwin-Vega Stroker or a Kicker Solo-X. Now you need a REALY big amp and 8hz will be easy.
edit: excursions of 3"+ are easy with a car system designed for rap music. (well this may be the only benifit of rap's existance, to make insainly large woofers with insain excursions)
edit: excursions of 3"+ are easy with a car system designed for rap music. (well this may be the only benifit of rap's existance, to make insainly large woofers with insain excursions)
perhaps you read it wrong?
"W" dipole cabinets will lower your driver Fs by 7-10 hertz. So we were not talking about the driver frequency response.
Driver frequency response has nothing to do with excursion. Excursion has to do with level or output so more equals more.
High excursion drivers while well suited for car audio very often sound very poor when reproducing music in a stereo application. Usual reason is that of driver noise which is very often generated by large displacement which make for turbulence on the magnet side of the driver as well as spider noises and or tinsel lead slap. The very long voice coils used to obtain such excursion also cause nonlinearities in the drive system as well. If this were not the case we would all have 6.5 inch woofers with 3 inch xmax in little bass boxes. Then there is the issue of the more often than not extreemly low efficiency of such drivers. Car drivers are designed for very different purposes than are home drivers. Not to say there are not some great car drivers there are but they are very much application specific. There is no music at 8 Hz. and if you had a turntable in your system 8 Hz would case you no end of feedback problems. So there are reasons for the bandwidth chosen for audio applications. Home theater and car audio run into the effects side of acoustic reproduction. A good shaker on the under side of a couch is a more cost effective and neighbour friendly means of providing a moving experience. Regards Moray James.
"W" dipole cabinets will lower your driver Fs by 7-10 hertz. So we were not talking about the driver frequency response.
Driver frequency response has nothing to do with excursion. Excursion has to do with level or output so more equals more.
High excursion drivers while well suited for car audio very often sound very poor when reproducing music in a stereo application. Usual reason is that of driver noise which is very often generated by large displacement which make for turbulence on the magnet side of the driver as well as spider noises and or tinsel lead slap. The very long voice coils used to obtain such excursion also cause nonlinearities in the drive system as well. If this were not the case we would all have 6.5 inch woofers with 3 inch xmax in little bass boxes. Then there is the issue of the more often than not extreemly low efficiency of such drivers. Car drivers are designed for very different purposes than are home drivers. Not to say there are not some great car drivers there are but they are very much application specific. There is no music at 8 Hz. and if you had a turntable in your system 8 Hz would case you no end of feedback problems. So there are reasons for the bandwidth chosen for audio applications. Home theater and car audio run into the effects side of acoustic reproduction. A good shaker on the under side of a couch is a more cost effective and neighbour friendly means of providing a moving experience. Regards Moray James.
dB SPL vs Frequency vs Displaced Volume
I would like to reference an excellent article written by Siegfried Linkwitz in Speaker Builder magazine, in the 4/84 issue. Yes, it is an old reference, but the laws of physics have not changed since then. The article title is "Excursion-Limited SPL Nomographs", and it has a complete derivation and set of charts for determining what SPL a particular driver has given it's effective cone diameter and Xmax. The explanation is also given why locating a subwoofer in a corner of the room, (and away from openings like doors, etc.) will give you "free" increase in SPL. I use this method to get the 126dB SPL at 16Hz with less than 10% THD in my installation. I highly recommend anyone who is serious about subwoofer performance get a copy of this to read it.
http://www.audioxpress.com/magsdirx/backissues/BISSBM.htm
is the link to the page and “Speaker Builder 1984 Back Issues” is the item to get. The cost is $18.00US with $8.29 Shipping and handling.
I would like to reference an excellent article written by Siegfried Linkwitz in Speaker Builder magazine, in the 4/84 issue. Yes, it is an old reference, but the laws of physics have not changed since then. The article title is "Excursion-Limited SPL Nomographs", and it has a complete derivation and set of charts for determining what SPL a particular driver has given it's effective cone diameter and Xmax. The explanation is also given why locating a subwoofer in a corner of the room, (and away from openings like doors, etc.) will give you "free" increase in SPL. I use this method to get the 126dB SPL at 16Hz with less than 10% THD in my installation. I highly recommend anyone who is serious about subwoofer performance get a copy of this to read it.
http://www.audioxpress.com/magsdirx/backissues/BISSBM.htm
is the link to the page and “Speaker Builder 1984 Back Issues” is the item to get. The cost is $18.00US with $8.29 Shipping and handling.
Re: perhaps you read it wrong?
There are three pipe organs that have 64 foot stops in their ranks. CD's exist with these pipes recorded. There is also a tremendous amount of movie "LFE" in this region that add to the home theater experience.
Don't be so down on the lowest two or three octaves of responce that most people don't even know exists.
moray james said:
There are three pipe organs that have 64 foot stops in their ranks. CD's exist with these pipes recorded. There is also a tremendous amount of movie "LFE" in this region that add to the home theater experience.
Don't be so down on the lowest two or three octaves of responce that most people don't even know exists.
Try this for size.
//www.visaton.de/en/bauvorschlaege/archiv/583/construction.html
Back when "Earthquake" was released, there was much excitement over how the sounds of the earthquake were generated in the theatre. At the same time, "The Who" were touring with "Tommy"
"The Who" were loud, later to be outdone by "Pink Floyd"
The engineers behind these bands just went for outright power and stacks of bins.
On the other hand, the engineers behind the earthquake scene had a range of different problems.
The net result was an array of Cerwin Vega 18" drivers in W bins across the stage, below the screen. The theatre where I saw the movie had 10 bins, or 20 drivers. The sound was generated with control tones from 1 audio track on the celulose.
Great care had to be taken not to bring the house down. Buildings tend to resonate at 7 Hz. You have been warned.
The sensation was breathtaking, or breath-holding. When the rumble first started, you heard it, then felt it, causing the sense of balance to wander.
I doubt there is much data in that range on DVDs. If there were, it would have to start at the mics, mixers, recording media etc.
Then as you say, if you cant reproduce it, how would you know?
The reference to organ pipes is interesting. From memory, the 16 ft pipes are the bottom octave of the lower console. The 32 and 64 ft pipes are fed from the bass pedals. The 64ft would resonate at about 17Hz. We cant hear 17 Hz, but can 34. What we do hear is 34Hz modulated with 17Hz. IE the amplitude of the 34Hz component is varying at the rate of 17 Hz.
Have fun, it's an interesting but expensive excersize.
Geoff
//www.visaton.de/en/bauvorschlaege/archiv/583/construction.html
Back when "Earthquake" was released, there was much excitement over how the sounds of the earthquake were generated in the theatre. At the same time, "The Who" were touring with "Tommy"
"The Who" were loud, later to be outdone by "Pink Floyd"
The engineers behind these bands just went for outright power and stacks of bins.
On the other hand, the engineers behind the earthquake scene had a range of different problems.
The net result was an array of Cerwin Vega 18" drivers in W bins across the stage, below the screen. The theatre where I saw the movie had 10 bins, or 20 drivers. The sound was generated with control tones from 1 audio track on the celulose.
Great care had to be taken not to bring the house down. Buildings tend to resonate at 7 Hz. You have been warned.
The sensation was breathtaking, or breath-holding. When the rumble first started, you heard it, then felt it, causing the sense of balance to wander.
I doubt there is much data in that range on DVDs. If there were, it would have to start at the mics, mixers, recording media etc.
Then as you say, if you cant reproduce it, how would you know?
The reference to organ pipes is interesting. From memory, the 16 ft pipes are the bottom octave of the lower console. The 32 and 64 ft pipes are fed from the bass pedals. The 64ft would resonate at about 17Hz. We cant hear 17 Hz, but can 34. What we do hear is 34Hz modulated with 17Hz. IE the amplitude of the 34Hz component is varying at the rate of 17 Hz.
Have fun, it's an interesting but expensive excersize.
Geoff
In response to Geoff H, "The reference to organ pipes is interesting. From memory, the 16 ft pipes are the bottom octave of the lower console. The 32 and 64 ft pipes are fed from the bass pedals. The 64ft would resonate at about 17Hz. We cant hear 17 Hz, but can 34. What we do hear is 34Hz modulated with 17Hz. IE the amplitude of the 34Hz component is varying at the rate of 17 Hz." needs clarification. I am reasonably experienced in church and theater pipe organs. A 16 foot open pipe produces 32Hz, a 32 foot pipe produces 16Hz. This my formula for remembering what length produces what frequency. A 64 foot open pipe produces 8Hz. Please see
http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html
Re: Re: perhaps you read it wrong?
I stand corrected on the score of music. While you are correct it still remains that there is little but effects in this range. That said I would enjoy listening (feeling) those effects. Thank you for your most interessting musical instrument link. There are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration if one wants to reproduce this range. I would be most interested in hearing your short list of "make sure's" regarding getting ready to make bass a kind of do's and don't's as it were. Reards Moray James.
REK said:
I stand corrected on the score of music. While you are correct it still remains that there is little but effects in this range. That said I would enjoy listening (feeling) those effects. Thank you for your most interessting musical instrument link. There are a lot of things that need to be taken into consideration if one wants to reproduce this range. I would be most interested in hearing your short list of "make sure's" regarding getting ready to make bass a kind of do's and don't's as it were. Reards Moray James.
Interesting link REK. As I said, from memory. It's been a long time since being near a 32" pipe. Thanks for the correction. I often refer to the keyboard scale when checking frequency.
The ear won't hear the fundamental at 8 or 16 Hz, however the harmonics are what makes the timbre. It's possible the ear re-creates the fundamental from the the structure of the harmonics. That said, if the speaker can not reproduce the fundamental, phase relationships may be lost.
On a similar theme, the Lesley speakers used on electronic organs rotated at about 7 revs per second didn't they?
At the end of the day, sound reproduction is all about compromise. I say "let's sacrifice floor space"
The ear won't hear the fundamental at 8 or 16 Hz, however the harmonics are what makes the timbre. It's possible the ear re-creates the fundamental from the the structure of the harmonics. That said, if the speaker can not reproduce the fundamental, phase relationships may be lost.
On a similar theme, the Lesley speakers used on electronic organs rotated at about 7 revs per second didn't they?
At the end of the day, sound reproduction is all about compromise. I say "let's sacrifice floor space"
There is some real low frequency stuff on some movie soundtracks. Check out the spectrograms at the subwoofer shootout at http://ultimateavmag.com/features/604way/
http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#moviedemos is more current and also has spectrograms.
http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#moviedemos is more current and also has spectrograms.
Giant Subwoofers
I have found the bitmap scans of the Audio magazine January 1999 article by Tom Nousaine. The original magazine was in color, but the colors obliterated the detail in the graphs and figures. The original graphs from Tom Nousaine are attached. There are the charts that compare the various subwoofers to the Velodyne 18, a well-respected commercially available subwoofer. The 9 files, however, are from 350Kb to 450Kb each in size and cannot be attached to this reply. Please email me and I can attach them to my email reply.
The bottom line, however, is as follows:
Maximum SPL output for 10% total harmonic distortion-
RK 4-18” TH 4-15” RP 2-18” TP 8-12” Velodyne 18
10 to 80Hz 121dB 118dB 107dB 119dB N/A
16 to 80Hz 125dB 117dB 107dB 123dB 109dB
25 to 62Hz 126dB 116dB 107dB 123dB 112dB
I have found the bitmap scans of the Audio magazine January 1999 article by Tom Nousaine. The original magazine was in color, but the colors obliterated the detail in the graphs and figures. The original graphs from Tom Nousaine are attached. There are the charts that compare the various subwoofers to the Velodyne 18, a well-respected commercially available subwoofer. The 9 files, however, are from 350Kb to 450Kb each in size and cannot be attached to this reply. Please email me and I can attach them to my email reply.
The bottom line, however, is as follows:
Maximum SPL output for 10% total harmonic distortion-
RK 4-18” TH 4-15” RP 2-18” TP 8-12” Velodyne 18
10 to 80Hz 121dB 118dB 107dB 119dB N/A
16 to 80Hz 125dB 117dB 107dB 123dB 109dB
25 to 62Hz 126dB 116dB 107dB 123dB 112dB
Skramstad said:
Horns are not the best enclosure for deep bass. I love 'em, but horns just get too big at low frequencies.
The most efficient enclosure for ultra-low bass is the acoustic lever. The next best for ULTRA deep bass is bandpass and vented.
Horn subs are all about efficiency. Even Danley's vaunted lab sub is down 10-20db at 20hz.
:: PB ::
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