P.Audio should be cheap in Asia. I like their 604 clone (a no longer produced 15"), which I use with helper woofers, two extra 15" each side. They seem to be copying Beyma these days, and I don't know how good the new drivers are: they are often good value, but consistency is not great.
My coaxial system is very good in my biased opinion, but, on some complex music, doesn't have the clarity that I hear from some good hifi speakers (or good headphones). Not sure if that's specific to my system, or inevitable when a 15" driver is doing midrange.
I'd quite like to try a more petite version of the same thing, e.g. a pair of BEYMA 5CX200ND (or the cheaper P Audio clones: SN6-150CX, both pictured) with 'subs' below ~150Hz.
There are jillions of good pro options, but most are well over the $50 of the original suggestion.
If the OP were willing to scale up (driver size and budget), Faital have big woofers that seem unusually well suited to a 2kHz crossover.
e.g. the 12FH500 plus something like this for HF
beyond econowave : Faital Pro HF144 compression driver with LTH142 Tractrix horn | MiniRIG
Note - I got a bargain pair of 12FH520 that seem good to me, and measure as well (smooth) as the spec sheet shows. The 12FH500 looks very similar but is $50 cheaper and the off-axis 1-2kHz seems a bit nicer.
Attachments
I didn't see this info before. I don't have a lot of love for these types of dual cone speaker. The response rises, and is spiky, and (as the plots for the FA22 show), if you equalise the on-axis response to be flat, you'll have a 10-15dB hole in the off-axis response from 3-10kHz.
Thus I'd be tempted (as Linesource was saying) to convert one pair into regular woofers for use to 2kHz - remove the whizzer from the ps220, then add several grams of cone treatments* to smooth the response and deaden the HF a little.
As the article says of the PM220 (and see figure 11):
Even though this is a “wideband” device, it still has the directivity of any other 8” piston, so crossover frequencies above 2 kHz will degrade a system’s power response.
Test Bench: Dayton Audio PM220-8 Wideband Neodymium 8? Woofer
*many methods are possible - attaching strips of weather sealing foam to the rear of the cone, etc.
http://www.dagogo.com/bache-audio-001-loudspeaker-review
This review of the bacheaudio 001 is quite interesting bedsit discusses quite a bit on the design of using HE speakers. The tangband is an interesting speaker because of the massive neo magnets it can use a very small and light coil giving it an mms of only 10 grams. However it costs 200 bucks... Frequency response doesn't have much rise at high frequencies at only 5 db or so. Removing the cone will make it into a simple widebander without a rising frequency response.
I am hoping to cross at about 5kHz by using a Pro speaker. Emulating some of the better properties but without paying the costs...
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This review of the bacheaudio 001 is quite interesting bedsit discusses quite a bit on the design of using HE speakers. The tangband is an interesting speaker because of the massive neo magnets it can use a very small and light coil giving it an mms of only 10 grams. However it costs 200 bucks... Frequency response doesn't have much rise at high frequencies at only 5 db or so. Removing the cone will make it into a simple widebander without a rising frequency response.
I am hoping to cross at about 5kHz by using a Pro speaker. Emulating some of the better properties but without paying the costs...
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Should be nice. I'm using a pair of 10FH520 a side in my PA system. They sound great even when you're really putting some power in there.
Ah, but a lighter cone is more easily bent. The outer edge may not follow the waveform at all.
Chris
The audiophile logic may sound very sound to one, lighter cone
better tracking, blah blah... the law says different. The lighter
the cone, the greater the efficiency, the lesser the bass.
Taken all into account, one needs multiple drive units to get the
optimal results (the least of a compromise).
no=9,78*10^(-10)*Vas*Fs^(3)/Qes
better tracking, blah blah... the law says different. The lighter
the cone, the greater the efficiency, the lesser the bass.
Taken all into account, one needs multiple drive units to get the
optimal results (the least of a compromise).
no=9,78*10^(-10)*Vas*Fs^(3)/Qes
I also noticed that in speakers in general. The high efficiency causes a high emf for the motor resulting in crazy impedances at Fs. It's quite common to reach a impedance at Fs of about 100 ohms... Can't imagine trying to push any current through that. That is why I am planning on using a current source amplifier with a resistor in parallel with the speaker to limit the voltage gain. That would push the speaker down to at least Fs. The second impedance peak at bass reflex port tuning will also give it a boost at the bass given it a lower frequency extension.
I am looking more of the best option for audiophile home use rather than pro use, so I don't really need some of the specification they were designed for. Example 200W power handling etc. Could you imagine 100 W at home on a 95 db/ watt speaker driver....
I think 50W power handling is already more than enough... The amplifier I have in mind can't even give out 10 W rms.
That's why I am looking at speakers with low mms, high BL and low Fs and a fairly flat frequency response from 100 Hz to 5kHz. At this point, you all must be thinking with all these demands, I must be a woman. [emoji14] That is why I am looking for it across all categories of drivers. My take is, speakers of this type is quite rare in the hifi category, almost all full range has a rising frequency response at 1kHz, pro speakers are the closest I have seen so far to what I am looking for. However I noticed that mechanical compliance are rather high tends to be quite high... Wish it was a tad lower.
Oon
I was just looking at some of the frequency response graph and I realised that the driver will roll off at a tune of -20 db/ octave. What are your thoughts on running the midwoofer without Crossover and the tweeters just add on to it. A bit like the SEAS a26.
https://www.loudspeakerbuilding.com...2013/April-2013/_Seas-A26_8563,en,900995,5693
The main purpose of the Crossover is to avoid the cone break up. Do pro- speaker have a better cone break up management? Or is it still cone material dependent? I know paper generally have a more gentle breakup.
https://www.loudspeakerbuilding.com...2013/April-2013/_Seas-A26_8563,en,900995,5693
The main purpose of the Crossover is to avoid the cone break up. Do pro- speaker have a better cone break up management? Or is it still cone material dependent? I know paper generally have a more gentle breakup.
Well, back many decades ago when it was the preferred way to build a speaker system, especially a high SQ one, so GPA's built to spec from original tooling by ex-Altec employees is an obvious choice: Great Plains Audio's Homepage
GM
Hey looks really interesting. Wish they have 8" drivers though. The hole in my box is 8"...
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OK, in scanning, size didn't seem a limitation and unfortunately the tooling is no longer available for Altec's smaller wide range [mid-bass] woofers, consequently vintage ones are quite pricey these days.
GM
GM
Any thoughts about running the Faitalpro 8Fe200 without Crossover?
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Any thoughts on whether you can forsake the low pass Crossover for the faitalpro 8fe200. Thanks
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At 2KHz 8fe200 is about 5-6dB down which is about maximum that you can use it if you want to combine it with some waveguide loaded tweeter.
It is -20dB at 5KHz and shows nasty breakup - i'd never use it that high nor would i recommend it to you.
DSP and say Umik-1 is a valid option if you want to have fun and not spending bunch of money on drivers that will not sound good.
I don't know of any driver that can work with no crossover ... except maybe Dynaudio 22W75 - that is about last Dyn that sounds natural to me, but they stopped making woofers with paper cones decades ago.
It is -20dB at 5KHz and shows nasty breakup - i'd never use it that high nor would i recommend it to you.
DSP and say Umik-1 is a valid option if you want to have fun and not spending bunch of money on drivers that will not sound good.
I don't know of any driver that can work with no crossover ... except maybe Dynaudio 22W75 - that is about last Dyn that sounds natural to me, but they stopped making woofers with paper cones decades ago.
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probably not
I have not read every single post in this thread, but I don't think the sound quality will remain in tact if it's used well into the break-up mode.
(those nasties sound harsh)
probably want to get out of there 900-ish
I have not read every single post in this thread, but I don't think the sound quality will remain in tact if it's used well into the break-up mode.
(those nasties sound harsh)
probably want to get out of there 900-ish
http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401030100
Not sure which driver you looked at but I think you must have looked at the wrong driver. Frequency response is actually flat to 5kHz. There is a small sucks out off axis at about 3kHz. But that doesn't bother me too much.
Anyway I have a minidsp so I could play with that. But I just want to hear opinion from others who have played with pro woofers....
BTW there is also the SEAS A26. Not really true that most speakers have lousy break up. There are many speakers with well controlled break up.... But generally you find them in the full range forum.... After all that is how they work...
Oon
Oon
Oon
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With a smoothed graph, you have to read between the lines a bit.
See this example, where the off axis bump on the factory graph is the best hint of the sharp spike that is revealed on the "real" graph - Troels fixes this bad boy with a crossover that weighs and costs more than the driver 🙂
Fostex FE126E +
For the Faital 8FE200:
a) That combo of notch followed by a peak is usually a bad sign
b) The on and off axis curves are ideally smooth & near to parallel, but here the off-axis response shows a big lump @ 4kHz
Again, compare this with the Faital 12FH500, which looks like it has smoother roll off. I think it would be a better choice with no crossover - and use it a bit off axis, since it has pretty good dispersion to 2kHz and not much above 2kHz.
Or just use your DSP!
Full range drivers are used right through their (sometimes lousy) break up range. Generally the less efficient ones have better controlled break up, and the smaller drivers have break up at a higher frequency, where our hearing is less sensitive.
The 8FE200 is neither of these.
Hmm, look at the vertical scale, it's in 10 dB increments, so it's anything but nominally flat [+/- 3 dB] out to 5 kHz except maybe around 20 deg off axis.
Anyway, like most 'FR' drivers it ideally needs to be tweaked and listened to off axis to use it beyond ~Fs*8*pi = ~2010 Hz or whatever it is with its actual Fs.
GM
I've been playing with pro woofers for quite some time. Recently i've been playing with low-eff speakers because i can't accommodate large cabinets now and won't be able to for at least a couple of years. Pro woofers needs xover (passive or active) or they either must be heavy modified or have very specific cabinets or both to work properly without xover of some sort.
Seas A26RE4 does not have breakup because it has Le = 3.8mH - They practically incorporated 6dB/o filter in it. But in some manner you are right so i'll rephrase - i don't know of any driver that can work well with no crossover.
If you already made up your mind about what you want to buy and just asking for confirmation i can't help you.
I'd look at the Eminence B102 if i were you. Cutting the whizzer cone and damping the dustcap with felt might just be enough to remove some energy (and probably resonance) above 2KHz. You could make an absorbent phase plug (can be seen on some tweeters - a circle of a certain size but in this case made of absorbent material in front of the woofer membrane). Make it damp the high frequencies on-axis and slightly off-axis and then as you go further off-axis the frequency response drops naturally because of membrane radius. The circle should not be very large in diameter but that must be measured so you could get a good blend of transition from on-axis to off-axis. Distance from membrane influences too. Than you can expand experimenting with it and do not make absorbent circle but absorbent slight inward cone or absorbent hemisphere so reflections of non absorbed sound would not go back to membrane etc. With a little imagination sky is the limit and measuring equipment is your best friend.
Cheers
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