Ron E said:
I just would like to note that this thread was started eons ago and recently revived by anti-tweak people. As a result I think this board needs a "propellerhead/double blind/clothes hangers are good speaker wire" forum where tweako-baiting threads like this one can go and where smug objectivists can tear people down without it getting in the way of talk about loudspeakers.
Sean
I think it's an excellent suggestion, and have been thinking along the same lines.seanzozo said:
Cables, power, speaker, or interconnect are all reasonable (and popular) DIY topics. Elsewhere. I believe they belong here too, of all places. It would be nice to trade "recipes" without 3 or 4 posts in between snarking up the place.
So I would agree with splitting. Cables might fit as a subforum under components; or have their own. And I'd like to see it DBT-free; perhaps a propellor-head section, with subsections: "All amps sound the same", all cables sound the same" "All caps sound the same" and "Nyah, Nyah, JC doesn't use Ty-Raps".
Another well known forum has areas for tweaks and cables, but they also prohibit rational criticism and discussion of DBT methods. IMO, it's intellectually dishonest to limit the discussion in that manner and it attracts poorly supported opinions that contaminate the hobby and lead neophytes astray. GIGO.
Cables, capacitors, tubes, transformers, resistors, transistors, screws, boxes, all do sound different. That is one of the reasons why there is still a hobby! ABX as much as you like. If you cant listen to them in your living room too, good for you. You save time and money!
All those tweaks are not the best things to do, it is a taste area, small gains compared to getting circuits and acoustics right... First things first.
Best get good quality cables for pro equipment, hook up, leave them alone and proceed into changing real stuff. I do the same. There are smarter, comprehensive ways to change tone, and we learn too.
On the other hand, us who have clearly heard what a single cap can do in our DAC or pre, or how a hook up wire changed the tone, and all the people around us could clearly hear it too, we would have been very dishonest to pretend that it is our fiction just because some demand hard facts.
All those tweaks are not the best things to do, it is a taste area, small gains compared to getting circuits and acoustics right... First things first.
Best get good quality cables for pro equipment, hook up, leave them alone and proceed into changing real stuff. I do the same. There are smarter, comprehensive ways to change tone, and we learn too.
On the other hand, us who have clearly heard what a single cap can do in our DAC or pre, or how a hook up wire changed the tone, and all the people around us could clearly hear it too, we would have been very dishonest to pretend that it is our fiction just because some demand hard facts.
I can't hear cable differences. Tried small cable, big cable, cat 5 cable they all sound the same. Haven't tried coathanger but that's just ugly and there is no isolator.
Someone suggested huge car battery cable, now that's new and quite cheap too ... do you think it will make any difference? Less resistance? Distance is about 4m.
Someone suggested huge car battery cable, now that's new and quite cheap too ... do you think it will make any difference? Less resistance? Distance is about 4m.
seanzozo said:
Are you seriously suggesting that errors and misunderstandings should not be put right? That the forum should put forth all sorts of misinformation by people who don't understand the science of perception and therefore think "it's true because I heard it"? And that these statements must be treated as sacrosanct, never put right, to propagate myths and mislead newcomers?
People are saying "it's true because I heard it", and I am correcting that to "I believe it because my mind perceived it".
Perhaps you are suggesting that there is no such thing as an error, it's all a matter of taste etc. There are two completely different things going on here. It's one thing for you to like a certain sound and me to prefer another. That's taste, that's personal preference. But it is a completely different thing to the question of whether an audible change in the sound waves in the room actually occurred. And an understanding of the role of the mind in creating a "different sound" even if there was no change in the sound waves in the room, but the listening context had changed.
salas said:
I was once at a friend's house with a group of hardened diy audiophiles. The host played "Easy Money". He then placed two small aluminium cones on top of each Naim IBL speaker and played the song again. We all heard the same differences. I heard it. I heard it clearly. Everyone there thought it was a proven good tweak, except me. I thought it was a great demo of the futility of sighted listening. They were assuming that the cones had changed the sound waves in the air. But if they had made any attempt to quantify the difference they would have realised the futility of arguing that the difference was audible. Almost every tweako demonstration that people think proves something about the tweak, actually proves the futility of uncontrolled testing.
There is plenty of room in our diy audio hobby for useful tweaking. For example modifying loudspeaker cabinets. Speaker placement, height and firing direction. Bass traps. Controlling reflections. Turntable resonances and motor issues. Upgrading undersized cables (not cable-swapping). Crossover tweaking.
It is no disservice or spoiling tactic to raise awareness that cable-swapping and capacitor-swapping (without changing values) is an exercise that invariably draws the tweaker away from changing the sound waves in his room and into a world of self-delusion that is hypnotic in its persuasiveness.
tnargs said:
There is a difference between putting forth your own belief of where you lie along the audio tweak spectrum from clearly kooky to clearly provable AND asserting infallible correctness--putting it "right."
Consistently on this board, and more strongly on others, I see people parrot objectivist mantras, from a subjectivist POV--"I didn't hear it no one can." I see people assault with "cable doesn't matter" when the discussion is about using 30 gauge speaker wire to push up the q of a low q driver--making a measurable difference.
My problem is not with objectivist analysis--that is saying that there is no evidence, or established physical mode, that suggests a tweak should work. It is when those people treat it like a crusade and become hypocritical that I get irritated. Also when like in this thread they attempt to bait people with whom they know they will have a disagreement so that those people be "put right" for their own amusement -- creating an eyesore of a thread and absorbing people who could be making useful comments on other threads. I'm done with this.
Sean
seanzozo said:
Without taking sides, I just see a need for an open forum where people are free to talk about tweaks that may or may not have anything to do with loudspeakers. People who want to talk about wire, oil capacitors, foil inductors, Talon audio Beaks, Shun Mook pucks, bright pebbles or whatever.... A place for these things to be hashed out would be great, IMO.
Curmudgeon said:
I think this (DBT Free) goes against the reason for having a tweak forum. A tweak forum where everyone agrees to be a subjectivist is boring.
R-Carpenter said:
This comment just underlines the need for an outlet for both tweak and anti-tweak folks.
Conrad Hoffman said:
I agree. Let it all be hashed out in an open forum.
nunayafb said:
OK, just don't blame me for trying to advertise cables
Ecosse, The Maestro MA2
Ecosse, The Master Reference
Ecosse, The Myth/Pro
Ecosse, The Legend
http://www.ecossecables.co.uk/Tables/table_frameset1_2.html
tnargs said:
Sorry tnargs, but our friendly neighborhood hearing superheroes will not fall for such Jedi mind tricks. So strong are they in The Farce. That demo only showed that you are human and as such, susceptible to psychological influence (or possibly even deafness).
Remember, they have trained themselves to "just listen" very carefully and have lots of experience doing so on their ultra "revealing" systems. They have self analyzed this training, self tested and based on the results, accredited themselves to be hearing superheroes, capable of leaping tall loudspeakers and small capacitors alike. Be not jealous, for jealousy lead to hate....and we know what hate leads to.
Ron E said:
Please don't forget Intelligent Chips, dips and maybe teleportation, my personal favorite (no, I haven't "experience it for myself"). I believe "Isolation Ward" is already taken, so perhaps "Tin Foil Hats"? Since most of these effects are unmeasurable (with todays technology), bypass the sound wave entirely and are beamed directly into the cranium?
nunayafb said:
1) own back yard
2) self constructed 100m track
3) self constructed or no timers
4) Friends or no witnesses
etc, etc
Cheers,
AJ
- Status
- Not open for further replies.