nunayafb said:
Sorry, missed this part.
I've listened to the four different cables, playing my favourite test track, knowing which cable is used. Then I left the room and a friend and the cable importer would randomly insert a set of cables, then I go back in to listen and could name which cable is playing. This was repeated 12 times.
Yes they have covered everything so that I could not see what was used
Sorry dude, but I don't believe you....
All we have is your word that all of these electrically equivalent cables sound different, and that you didn't see them, or that this test occurred and you didn't just go to a website and pick 4 cables!
But I am willing to play along.
I feel confident in saying that if you heard a difference it should be measurable. If it is measurable then those are crappy cables. But being that they all use high quality conductors and shielding- I would bet these all perform the same.
Cables allow voltage to pass from A to B, they have a DCR and frequency dependent impedance and noise rejection. Quality cables have low DCR, flat impedance curve (in audio band) and shielded enough to keep noise out (if you routed them poorly).
Thats it, there is no magic! Speakers convert the voltage they receive to sound-there is no spiritual musical aura that is passed through the many useless layer of "high end" audio cables. It is just voltage.
All we have is your word that all of these electrically equivalent cables sound different, and that you didn't see them, or that this test occurred and you didn't just go to a website and pick 4 cables!
But I am willing to play along.
I feel confident in saying that if you heard a difference it should be measurable. If it is measurable then those are crappy cables. But being that they all use high quality conductors and shielding- I would bet these all perform the same.
Cables allow voltage to pass from A to B, they have a DCR and frequency dependent impedance and noise rejection. Quality cables have low DCR, flat impedance curve (in audio band) and shielded enough to keep noise out (if you routed them poorly).
Thats it, there is no magic! Speakers convert the voltage they receive to sound-there is no spiritual musical aura that is passed through the many useless layer of "high end" audio cables. It is just voltage.
nunayafb said:
You know, there is major psychology going on on the "objectivist" side of this debate. If you start with the preconception that scientifically all cables must sound the same, and simply refuse to even begin to consider claims otherwise then you have a psychologically entrenched position.
I retain a foot in each camp. I hear burn-in changes, but the nature of what I hear suggests a significant influence of psychology. It is clear from posts like the above that should I try to double-blind my cable listening I will simply be disbelieved if I can differentiate cables.
One of our "objectivist" posters claimed that he would only accept non-tweak things, and his list included speaker-height. Well can I challenge him - listen blinded to your speakers at normal height, then again 2 feet higher. Can you identify which is which 100% of the time. I'm willing to bet it would be pretty close to 50:50. Therefore - to apply the logic that started this thread - scientifically the auditory effects of speaker height MUST be entirely psychological. And anybody who ever says otherwise is deluded and to be pitied.
But then entrenched positions are so easy to hold, and feel so reassuringly strong - don't they?
Straw man.
The problem with "considering a claim" is that the claim has to actually have some evidence for it to be considered. Cable-sound evidence, to date, has been demonstrated and no-one disbelieves it. What has NOT been backed with any evidence whatever is that factors beyond the gross effects of LCR on frequency response and stability have any significance.
All it takes is... evidence. Not stories. Not unsubstantiated claims. Not anecdotes. Evidence.
Alan Hope said:One of our "objectivist" posters claimed that he would only accept non-tweak things, and his list included speaker-height. Well can I challenge him - listen blinded to your speakers at normal height, then again 2 feet higher. Can you identify which is which 100% of the time. I'm willing to bet it would be pretty close to 50:50. Therefore - to apply the logic that started this thread - scientifically the auditory effects of speaker height MUST be entirely psychological. And anybody who ever says otherwise is deluded and to be pitied.
But then entrenched positions are so easy to hold, and feel so reassuringly strong - don't they?
Changes in speaker height can be measured in the acoustic response. Your listening angle and distance changes as well as the relation to the rooms boundaries (modes, reflections, etc.)
Changes in similar cables cannot be measured. Similar being in length and LCR values.
There isn't a comparison with speaker height - that would affect the reflections from different surfaces within a room, causing different wavelengths to cancel and is therefore likely to alter the tone of the sound slightly. Obviously probably about as little as moving your head tjhe same distance instead, but still it's an entirely predictable and probable effect.
Cable is designed to have no electrical resistance. Every other component within an audio system is designed to have resistance and/or other electrical properties. It should be no surprise that two audio cables, that are both designed to have no resistance, should be pretty damn close at achieving just that.
Cable is designed to have no electrical resistance. Every other component within an audio system is designed to have resistance and/or other electrical properties. It should be no surprise that two audio cables, that are both designed to have no resistance, should be pretty damn close at achieving just that.
You know there is major psychology going on in the "subjectivist" side of the debate. If you start with the idea that there is the possibility that any and all items in the reproduction chain can have profound effects on the signal, they you will convince yourself that you can hear them, and simply refuse to consider that any claims that differ based upon good science and engineering, then you have a psychologically entrenched position.Alan Hope said:
Give a good reason beyond LCR and possibly shielding quality why they can sound different. Nothing airy-fairy, but that could possibly have real world effects, say 30dB below signal. This is not an ureasonable thing to ask, yet I have not seen anything presented that is remotely plausible yet.
nunayafb said:
I'm not trying to convince anybody, the starter of this thread asked for input and I stated my experience, my system sound the same to me even if nobody believe me.
Nobody claimed any magic, if you read through the quoted website you will note what effort go into that cables to make it better.
I agree the differences should be measurable, just keep in mind that the differences is mainly in low level detail, making it more difficult. Perhaps that is where the confusion is, if we (deluded one's) say there is a big difference between cables, we mean a big difference in low level detail. Maybe that change the way our brain perceive the sound. Somebody in this thread described how it is possible for small midrange distortion to influence bass perception.
I must also admit that I listen differently to music than perhaps most people, I'm always searching for extracting more detail from good recordings, like hearing somebody turn a page or touching a string, the decay of a note etc. and to make it sound as real as possible.
So please, I don't claim to be better, faster or anything, I'm also searching for answers and have no desire for a "war" then I will rather stop participating.
André
Cables can sound different under some conditions.
Cables have different measurable electrical properties.
Did anyone really seriously claim that all cables ever made sound the same under all conditions in all systems?
If the resulting signals at the speaker terminals are the same, the sound will be the same- you may still hear a difference.
If the signals are different, you may hear a difference- or you may not.
Why is this so complicated?
Cables have different measurable electrical properties.
Did anyone really seriously claim that all cables ever made sound the same under all conditions in all systems?
If the resulting signals at the speaker terminals are the same, the sound will be the same- you may still hear a difference.
If the signals are different, you may hear a difference- or you may not.
Why is this so complicated?
Brett, of course there is psychology on the "subjectivist" side (see my posts) my point was that the objectivists are not untainted!
If I can consistently detect the difference between cables (I'll happily do blind tests if you will trust me to report honestly) then why should I have to supply a scientific reason? I have only a hobbyist (hifi plus synthesisers) understanding of audio science.
Of course if I can't consistently detect the difference then for me the case is closed.
If I can consistently detect the difference between cables (I'll happily do blind tests if you will trust me to report honestly) then why should I have to supply a scientific reason? I have only a hobbyist (hifi plus synthesisers) understanding of audio science.
Of course if I can't consistently detect the difference then for me the case is closed.
Brett said:
This post was quite interesting and informative:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1506340#post1506340
High level signals may only get attenuated, the low level signals can get lost.
Brett said:
An experience:
I had for many years a Deltec Little bit D/A that I bought in 1991. It came with a Deltec free digital cable that had a directivity arrow on its sleeve. I hooked it up as Deltec wanted in their manual, and forgot about it for a year or so. I had to move my entire source and pre & power kit at a point. So I had to rewire again. Speakers and furniture remained the same and where they used to be.
Something sounded odd for 2 days. Could not reason why my sonics aquired that small but poking out flat and glassy edge. I had changed nothing in my amps, or elsewhere! I was swearing all the time at the fragility of my kit! I went there checking... I cleared my RCAs, nothing. I measured my mains, ok. I changed mutual positions of pre amp and amp suspecting some field, no change. I took everything off rack and put it on the hard floor! Bloody hell! The edge was there still!
As all it was on the floor, I spotted that wee little arrow on that digi coax. It was hooked up the ''wrong'' way around. I said to myself, what the hell, put back as it always was. Bye bye harshness! Finito! Zero! Caput!
I was NOT trying to find out about digital cable directivity, I had no idea how I rehooked that cable, bcs simply I never got worried about it! For a year!
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I am not a High-End guy. I hate paying for tweaks. I hate consuming time for tweaks even when given for a free try.
My system is DIY. My cables are Mogami coaxial leftovers from stage monitors. Every time that I have tried different cables, they lend a distinct color. I try for my system to be as immune as it can possibly be, so those cable colors cant really tip its sound over. You know, low output impedances, nice stable circuits, very carefully chosen speaker power response for my room etc. Neutral sonics is my goal, I compare basic tone with headphones every time I do something to my system too. If I get to try a friend's cable that adds something better, I am not saving for buying one. I stabilize a supply, or I redo my phase splitter. I find what the valve guru Sakuma said very concise and wise: ''Through the experience of building many amplifiers, you learn the tone of individual parts.
If you need more high frequency, the best way is by your changing ohms and microfarads.
Someone may change the parts another company made. Even if the new capacitor gives him fine frequency, that capacitor brings a new sound into his amplifier's tone. His method will take him into deep woods.''
Simple, open thinking, no trenches needed. Everything has some individual sonics, DON'T play with what is not easily controlled. Its NOT efficient to play with materials, there are better ways. Just that!
Why it has to be black or white? I understand the mechanism that forces the compulsive rich High-End consumer that has zero electronics and acoustics knowledge but feels the urge to buy something and refresh his sound. He is the perfect victim of the market.
We as DIYers - the exact opposite breed - have no fear of becoming victims if something about cable or parts sonics has a reality base. Because building a new better preamp is a much much better way than trying to 'enhance' the old one.
I don't believe. Its no faith matter. I have experienced it once with that digital coax from Wales. I must not question it or try to reason it. I never changed my cables around to check which and if may have some directionality issue. I left the case there for over 10 yrs now. I designed and DIYed several new speakers and amplifiers since then and got better measurement kit, piece by piece. I don't care for such trivia. Its not that hard to overcome directivity or cable color if its there somewhere in my system, by making other, hard and controlled changes. Circuitry and acoustics is what I like to change. I just know that cabling can be picked up, but I relegate cabling into a minor concern. I don't let my self lapse in to a labyrinth. If some bright scientific team ever comes up with the why and what of cabling and materials, I will be happy to make my own cables based on controlled, measurable data. Till then I just consider cables ''another roadside attraction''. The highway is what it can be clearly controlled.
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