I have visited the guy from Audio_cube.nl this week. He is the dutch distributor of the 47Labs equipment.
After reading so much here on the chip amp forum I got realy interested in their performance. I have borowed a gainclone from someone who lives here nearby and will do some more experiments with it this week. First impression was a bit dissapointing.
About the 47Labs GainCard, the one you are all trying to clone but no one seem to beat it. We compared it with a modfied Welborne Labs DRD 300B SET amp on a set of Von Sweikert speakers (not my cup of tea) and a set of JM Lab Offrande (better than the Von Sweikerts, but still not my cup of tea) To be very honest I find the Welborne quite a bit better than the GainCard, it just plays the music with more ease, more dynamics, more detail etc. The GainCard sounded a bit dry and veiled in comparison, not that it's a bad amp, oh no, but the Welborne simply performed better.
The bigger surprise of this afternoon was the 47Labs DAC. We have compared it with a Apogee miniDAC. It was for the first time in many years that I have heard such a huge difference in performance between two kinds of equipment. Switching to the 47Labs was a huge difference from the very first note that was played like there was a whole new stereo set playing.
I have heard a couple of non oversampling non filtering DAC's with the same chipset before but this is from a whole different leage. I really don't know how this man did it but he did something very right.
After reading so much here on the chip amp forum I got realy interested in their performance. I have borowed a gainclone from someone who lives here nearby and will do some more experiments with it this week. First impression was a bit dissapointing.
About the 47Labs GainCard, the one you are all trying to clone but no one seem to beat it. We compared it with a modfied Welborne Labs DRD 300B SET amp on a set of Von Sweikert speakers (not my cup of tea) and a set of JM Lab Offrande (better than the Von Sweikerts, but still not my cup of tea) To be very honest I find the Welborne quite a bit better than the GainCard, it just plays the music with more ease, more dynamics, more detail etc. The GainCard sounded a bit dry and veiled in comparison, not that it's a bad amp, oh no, but the Welborne simply performed better.
The bigger surprise of this afternoon was the 47Labs DAC. We have compared it with a Apogee miniDAC. It was for the first time in many years that I have heard such a huge difference in performance between two kinds of equipment. Switching to the 47Labs was a huge difference from the very first note that was played like there was a whole new stereo set playing.
I have heard a couple of non oversampling non filtering DAC's with the same chipset before but this is from a whole different leage. I really don't know how this man did it but he did something very right.
Hi Sjef,
For me the interest in the GainCard is it's simplicity in "design" with it's huge price tag. So far I have not heard any fellow DIYers say they have compared their LM3875,3876,3886, etc. with the GainCard. Therefore without electrical mearsurements and listening comparisons, who knows maybe one of the designs in this Forum excels over the GainCard. For me it is an enjoyable relatively inexpensive project. For many new DIYers it is an easy way to start building, learning and enjoying something they made without buying premade, highly advertised off the shelf products. Go ahead, have some fun and make a pseudo GainCard "clone'.😉
For me the interest in the GainCard is it's simplicity in "design" with it's huge price tag. So far I have not heard any fellow DIYers say they have compared their LM3875,3876,3886, etc. with the GainCard. Therefore without electrical mearsurements and listening comparisons, who knows maybe one of the designs in this Forum excels over the GainCard. For me it is an enjoyable relatively inexpensive project. For many new DIYers it is an easy way to start building, learning and enjoying something they made without buying premade, highly advertised off the shelf products. Go ahead, have some fun and make a pseudo GainCard "clone'.😉
Sjef said:
Look around, we are not cloning anymore.
We are improving it.😀
Sjef said:
No big surprize.
That thing is very picky with cables and speakers.
It will work well with their cables, AND very sensitive speakers.
It will shine then.
I suppose that a distributor SHOULD know this, how to demo a thing like this.
I've seen the Gaincard on a distributor here, using their "special" cables and a big (full-range) horn speaker.
Sound was very good.
But that system is not for everyone, not for me.
The GainCard was playing with the 47Labs cabling throughout the whole system, same cabling was used with the Welborne Labs. There was nothing wrong with the setup.
I can understand why this thing is cloned so much, specially price wise, but I was only interested in the absolute sound quality, not in the low price or simplicity or whatever. I really don't care if an amp is equipt with tubes, chips or transistors as long as it sounds good it's good to me.
When you make a statement that you have actually improved the GainCard I assume you have a GainCard at home to compare it with ?
I can understand why this thing is cloned so much, specially price wise, but I was only interested in the absolute sound quality, not in the low price or simplicity or whatever. I really don't care if an amp is equipt with tubes, chips or transistors as long as it sounds good it's good to me.
When you make a statement that you have actually improved the GainCard I assume you have a GainCard at home to compare it with ?
Sjef said:
I didn't say I improved.
I said we are improving it.
Different, no?
It's a continuous process.😉
The Gaincard can't drive difficult speakers (normal these days) properly, and that's why the distributor here had some big horn speakers to demo them.
At least my GC is not so picky with cables and speakers.
If it's better than the Gaincard or not, I really don't care, it's sure better with my speakers and probably with most speakers around today.
I don't have conditions to have big and very sensitive speakers in my room, so the Gaincard is not for me, thanks.
I wouldn't pay that outrageous price anyway.
You don't really think that it's very difficult to copy the Gaincard, do you?
What's so special and so different about it that we haven't already made here?
The box?😀
The suggestion that a regulated supply can cure the GC problems with difficult speakers seems really exaggerated. It probably brings substantial improvements in perceived bass quality but has little to do with better drive of difficult impedances. The only way to substantially improve on this is with paralleling or employing a separate current dumping stage.
analog_sa said:
It doesn't even bring this. I had to remove the caps from my regular GC amp, so I put Carlos' amp in my workshop system (AudioTechnology 5" driver in a small room) and was listening extensively yesterday, while building normal amps. While it seemed that the bass was a bit more, it was mostly boomy, without much control and definition. It's surely not my cup of tea.
You can read Audio Cube dealer comments here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=271272&highlight=#post271272
analog_sa said:
No, that's not the case, I didn't say exactly that.
These chips work better with low capacitance (1000~1500uf) caps on the PSU and you have voltage dips that get worse and worse as the speakers (and the music) demand current.
The reg. PSU solves that, bass is not more, it's just tighter.
And BTW with the reg. PSU you can have 10,000uf caps before the regulators without mucking up the sound.
Peter, I'm still puzzled about your completely opposite oppinion to mine, and everyone that tried this.😕 😱
Sjef said:
I think those speakers are not the right ones for the gaincard/clone. It is very "very" picky, much more so than your average amps. It took a great amount of playing with the cables and speakers to make it sound as good as SETs for me. Up to you to decide if this is worth the trouble.
It could be that the simplified circuit is optimized for a single driver (full range). As soon as you have a crossover with more drivers it falls outside of its comfort zone. I made an experiment with a stereo gainclone driving two-way speakers and a quad gainclone each driving the separate drivers and the difference was huge. A veil was lifted and the soundstage expanded.
BTW, I have compared the sound of the my gainclones and the gaincard, and to be honest prefer mine. Better components and silver connectors do make a difference. Where the gaincard was better was in the noise and hum factor. In the gainclones I've built, I have noticed that going to a smaller TF and caps, you lower the hum and noise.
And finally, IMO, you absolutely need some kind of power conditioner for the gaincards/clones.
I would like to believe that the GainCard is very picky with partnering speakers, but isn't that exactly the prejustice of SET amps ?
I'm not saying that any SET amp sounds better than a GainCard, the modified Welborne Labs just sounded better in this setup. No offence, it's just what I have heard. Doesn't anyone tell you to trust your own ears ?
In my experience with my own SET amps is that with these amps the difference in speakercable is much smaller than with transitor amps. I realy don't like to hassle around with different cables to much because that's a never ending story.
I also never said that the GainCard is impossible to clone or to improve. What I said was that you need the possibility to compare them directly.
If I can ever hear a gainclone at my place that outperforms my SET amp I wouldn't have any trouble with replacing the SET. Would be very nice to have a six channel gainclone in one box for my active speaker system, saves a lot of space (and tubes) in compare with my current setup with tube monoblocks.
I'm not saying that any SET amp sounds better than a GainCard, the modified Welborne Labs just sounded better in this setup. No offence, it's just what I have heard. Doesn't anyone tell you to trust your own ears ?
In my experience with my own SET amps is that with these amps the difference in speakercable is much smaller than with transitor amps. I realy don't like to hassle around with different cables to much because that's a never ending story.
I also never said that the GainCard is impossible to clone or to improve. What I said was that you need the possibility to compare them directly.
If I can ever hear a gainclone at my place that outperforms my SET amp I wouldn't have any trouble with replacing the SET. Would be very nice to have a six channel gainclone in one box for my active speaker system, saves a lot of space (and tubes) in compare with my current setup with tube monoblocks.
jeff mai said:
Yes, the only one...
When Peter says "Carlos" amp it's not true, it's just the amp he "adapted" with my schematic.
I know what's the problems with his amp.😉
But forget it, I'm not even willing to discuss this anymore.
For me, case closed.
hint
No, it's a completely different story.
The Gaincard has:
1. Low PSU capacitance (but it's how this chips sound better, with unreg. PSU).
2. No zobel or resistor or anything to make the amp stable with high capacitive loads.
Conclusion:
It's a lottery. Even with their cables some very good speakers can sound awful.
Complex crossovers and/or difficult speakers don't sound good with the Gaincard.
And forget manufacturer's specs, they don't tell half of the story.
Even 90~91db sensitivity modern speakers can sound bad with this.
The distributor here had the right type of speakers to demo the Gaincard, and it sounded very good.
Believe me, you didn't listen to how the Gaincard can sound.
But there are distributors and distributors, some of them should close the door and sell lingerie or something else.😀
Sjef said:
No, it's a completely different story.
The Gaincard has:
1. Low PSU capacitance (but it's how this chips sound better, with unreg. PSU).
2. No zobel or resistor or anything to make the amp stable with high capacitive loads.
Conclusion:
It's a lottery. Even with their cables some very good speakers can sound awful.
Complex crossovers and/or difficult speakers don't sound good with the Gaincard.
And forget manufacturer's specs, they don't tell half of the story.
Even 90~91db sensitivity modern speakers can sound bad with this.
The distributor here had the right type of speakers to demo the Gaincard, and it sounded very good.
Believe me, you didn't listen to how the Gaincard can sound.
But there are distributors and distributors, some of them should close the door and sell lingerie or something else.😀
"PHOTOGRAPHY" of the real Gain Card
I'll wonder when someone puts here an complete X-Ray of a Gain Card...
Inside, up and down, left and right, detailed full size pics...
No matter the size...
When???
Regards,
Pedro Martins
P.S. Carlos, não tens por aí nenhuma fotografia??
I'll wonder when someone puts here an complete X-Ray of a Gain Card...
Inside, up and down, left and right, detailed full size pics...
No matter the size...
When???
Regards,
Pedro Martins
P.S. Carlos, não tens por aí nenhuma fotografia??
Sjef said:
Is the point of this thread to say that you personally preferred the Wellborne amp to the gaincard and by association that you would prefer it to the gainclone?Or is it that the gaincard is a bad sounding amp?
If it is the first your stating a subjective preference has some small added value but I would'nt really start a thread over it.We have enough as it is.We have gainclone lovers but gainclone haters as well.In general I would say the vast majority would say it is a pretty good sounding amp but there many fish in the sea.We even have threads arguing heatedly about preferring one version of a gainclone to another .
I think it's matter of fact that many people may hear differently and may prefer one amp over another - no use arguing about it.
Pedro, seach this forum.
Several people have already posted that.
I must warn you: the insides are not nice.😀
Tanto dinheiro que pedem por esta bosta, o circuito parece que foi feito na cozinha, as soldaduras por um amador...
😎
Several people have already posted that.
I must warn you: the insides are not nice.😀
Tanto dinheiro que pedem por esta bosta, o circuito parece que foi feito na cozinha, as soldaduras por um amador...
😎
Sjef said:
I agree with you that a 300b SET can sound wonderful. My Cary 2A3s have served me well for 6 years now. But I have a psychological problem with wasting my tubes. They are expensive after all, and I'm always wondering if they are getting weak, even if the softness might be due to the recording, or wondering if one side is lower than the other because of a single tube, they go at different rates after all.
For the price of the tubes, you can build yourself a 6 channel clone. If for nothing but backup. The sound can be very good, good enough that in the long run, you forget about them (instead of fussing with the tubes). You can leave it on all the time, they don't consume that much electricity and like a constant flow.
As for the sound, it is a different sound for sure. The SETs have a wonderful creamy midrange, the gainxxx are more uniform accross the spectrum. I would say their highs are better, simply because there's no possibility of the corruption of "SSS"s by leaking gazes in tubes or tube ringing. Their bottom end can also be tighter depending on components.
Sjef said:
If you build an amp following closely Carlos schematic, and his bypassing suggestions, chances are this amp will outperform SET😉
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