Alright, I have your attention now.
I've never had great luck with record cleaning machines (vacuum or ultrasonic). And I'm not a fan of detergents on vinyl.
Recently I tried an experiment and it paid enormous dividends, so I figured I'd share it here.
It outperforms glue for me, and is faster and less expensive, as well. It leaves no detergent residue, and helps remove any detergent residue already present.
Materials: (1) Paint pad. I use one of the trim-sized ones. (2) 50/50 mix of 91% iso alcohol and distilled water. (3) An empty glass. (4) Gravity. (5) Carbon-fiber brush.
STEPS
(1) Apply a liberal amount of the fluid to ONE SIDE of a record. I use a little lazy Susan I use for record cleaning, but you could just lay a towel on a surface to protect the other side of the record. Use what you've got.
(2) Use the paint pad to "paint" the surface, and pad it around a little bit. You don't need to be aggressive, you just want to massage the fluid around. Make sure there is enough fluid, you don't want it running off the edges but you also don't want to be able to see the grooves.
(3) Flip album upside down on top of an empty glass, and let gravity do its work. Might want to put something under the glass in case drips occur. I don't normally get drips, but have on occasion had a few.
(4) Once all the fluid evaporates (about 20-30 minutes), place the album on your turntable, use the carbon fiber brush to clean it, then give it a listen. Play it from start to finish.
(5a) Once the record is done playing, consider shining a flashlight across the surface of the album (a raking light), and you'll see a debris field. This is everything that the method evacuated from the groove. Your stylus did the final step of dislodging it so the carbon fiber brush can now remove it for good.
(5b) Use your carbon fiber brush for a post-play cleaning to get all those specs gone.
(6) If the record side played like-new, move onto the second side and repeat. If not, if the album was a basket case, you can repeat this process. This has been necessary for a couple albums that seem to have been treated with something oily/waxy. Maybe Pledge? I know some people call vinyl "wax," but you aren't supposed to actually wax it! Examining some of the stuff that is removed from my trouble albums with a magnifier, it really looks like wax. I have other theories, I won't trouble you with them now.
OKAY I TRIED IT, WHY DOES THIS WORK SO WELL?
In a nutshell, the fluid is suspending crap in the groove, then gravity is pulling it out of the bottom of the groove and the process of evaporation is combining tiny particles of debris into larger and larger particles. These larger particles are in fact too large to re-enter the groove after you play the record, they're easily brushed-off by the carbon fiber brush.
These larger particles seem to cling onto the edge at the top of the groove until the record is played and brushed, at which point they're gone forever and your groove is left perfectly clean.
I've only done this with my MicroLine styli, I have not tried it on my other profiles. Please be my guest.
TO ADDRESS OBJECTIONS BEFORE THEY'RE EVEN MADE
(1) Yes, this method employs alcohol. And it sits on the vinyl for a while. Don't use this method if that scares you. There have been several recent threads about alcohol on vinyl, lots of people use it, but you have to be able to sleep at night.
(1a) Be careful with alcohol. Use ISO, not ETHYL, for reasons I won't bore you with now.
(2) Yes, the stylus is knocking the dust specks off the edge of the vinyl. They're just barely hanging on. You don't hear this during playback. If you hear any pops/ticks during playback, it is because the groove was THAT dirty that stuff is still in it and you'll need another round or two. See my comments about wax above.
(3) Even if you have some objection, consider trying the method on records you're not too concerned with, especially ones that have resisted coming clean using other methods. You may be surprised that the vinyl doesn't melt and the stylus doesn't fall off. 🙂
Anyways, that is it, I've officially shared Phil Thien's record cleaning method that, BTW, outperforms GLUE in terms of silencing records, and it is faster and cheaper. Way outperforms any record cleaning machine made, I promise you.
I yield the floor to the inevitable naysayers.
I've never had great luck with record cleaning machines (vacuum or ultrasonic). And I'm not a fan of detergents on vinyl.
Recently I tried an experiment and it paid enormous dividends, so I figured I'd share it here.
It outperforms glue for me, and is faster and less expensive, as well. It leaves no detergent residue, and helps remove any detergent residue already present.
Materials: (1) Paint pad. I use one of the trim-sized ones. (2) 50/50 mix of 91% iso alcohol and distilled water. (3) An empty glass. (4) Gravity. (5) Carbon-fiber brush.
STEPS
(1) Apply a liberal amount of the fluid to ONE SIDE of a record. I use a little lazy Susan I use for record cleaning, but you could just lay a towel on a surface to protect the other side of the record. Use what you've got.
(2) Use the paint pad to "paint" the surface, and pad it around a little bit. You don't need to be aggressive, you just want to massage the fluid around. Make sure there is enough fluid, you don't want it running off the edges but you also don't want to be able to see the grooves.
(3) Flip album upside down on top of an empty glass, and let gravity do its work. Might want to put something under the glass in case drips occur. I don't normally get drips, but have on occasion had a few.
(4) Once all the fluid evaporates (about 20-30 minutes), place the album on your turntable, use the carbon fiber brush to clean it, then give it a listen. Play it from start to finish.
(5a) Once the record is done playing, consider shining a flashlight across the surface of the album (a raking light), and you'll see a debris field. This is everything that the method evacuated from the groove. Your stylus did the final step of dislodging it so the carbon fiber brush can now remove it for good.
(5b) Use your carbon fiber brush for a post-play cleaning to get all those specs gone.
(6) If the record side played like-new, move onto the second side and repeat. If not, if the album was a basket case, you can repeat this process. This has been necessary for a couple albums that seem to have been treated with something oily/waxy. Maybe Pledge? I know some people call vinyl "wax," but you aren't supposed to actually wax it! Examining some of the stuff that is removed from my trouble albums with a magnifier, it really looks like wax. I have other theories, I won't trouble you with them now.
OKAY I TRIED IT, WHY DOES THIS WORK SO WELL?
In a nutshell, the fluid is suspending crap in the groove, then gravity is pulling it out of the bottom of the groove and the process of evaporation is combining tiny particles of debris into larger and larger particles. These larger particles are in fact too large to re-enter the groove after you play the record, they're easily brushed-off by the carbon fiber brush.
These larger particles seem to cling onto the edge at the top of the groove until the record is played and brushed, at which point they're gone forever and your groove is left perfectly clean.
I've only done this with my MicroLine styli, I have not tried it on my other profiles. Please be my guest.
TO ADDRESS OBJECTIONS BEFORE THEY'RE EVEN MADE
(1) Yes, this method employs alcohol. And it sits on the vinyl for a while. Don't use this method if that scares you. There have been several recent threads about alcohol on vinyl, lots of people use it, but you have to be able to sleep at night.
(1a) Be careful with alcohol. Use ISO, not ETHYL, for reasons I won't bore you with now.
(2) Yes, the stylus is knocking the dust specks off the edge of the vinyl. They're just barely hanging on. You don't hear this during playback. If you hear any pops/ticks during playback, it is because the groove was THAT dirty that stuff is still in it and you'll need another round or two. See my comments about wax above.
(3) Even if you have some objection, consider trying the method on records you're not too concerned with, especially ones that have resisted coming clean using other methods. You may be surprised that the vinyl doesn't melt and the stylus doesn't fall off. 🙂
Anyways, that is it, I've officially shared Phil Thien's record cleaning method that, BTW, outperforms GLUE in terms of silencing records, and it is faster and cheaper. Way outperforms any record cleaning machine made, I promise you.
I yield the floor to the inevitable naysayers.
Once it was called "Wet Playing" 60% destilled water with 40% Isopropyl alcohol,
evenly distrubuted by a second "tonearm" with a velvet sponge.
But the saying was: "Once wet, always wet"
As many did wet playing with new records,
there was never the experience made that the stylus would kick
the ineviteable residue out of the groove...
evenly distrubuted by a second "tonearm" with a velvet sponge.
But the saying was: "Once wet, always wet"
As many did wet playing with new records,
there was never the experience made that the stylus would kick
the ineviteable residue out of the groove...
This method does not involve any wet play.
None at all.
We don't play until all the fluids have gone, and have dragged the crud out to the very top of the groove.
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Audio magazine feature, 1982-85 time line.
WFMT Chicago got 95 dB S/N ratio on vinyl using a spray and vacuum system to clean records with 25% ethyl alcohol in de ionized water.
Nothing new...
WFMT Chicago got 95 dB S/N ratio on vinyl using a spray and vacuum system to clean records with 25% ethyl alcohol in de ionized water.
Nothing new...
Again, there is no vacuum employed using this technique, we're relying entirely on time and gravity.
Think of this method as a sort of cleaning technique for albums that may have been exposed to some sort of gunk that was rubbed into the grooves. The water+alcohol hangs around until it evaporates, but hopefully long enough to dissolve whatever contamination is in the groove. Gravity pulls this mixture of water+alcohol and whatever was dissolved/suspended down and out of the groove.
At least it did for me. I'm pretty sure at least a few of my albums had some sort of wax pushed into the grooves.
Think of this method as a sort of cleaning technique for albums that may have been exposed to some sort of gunk that was rubbed into the grooves. The water+alcohol hangs around until it evaporates, but hopefully long enough to dissolve whatever contamination is in the groove. Gravity pulls this mixture of water+alcohol and whatever was dissolved/suspended down and out of the groove.
At least it did for me. I'm pretty sure at least a few of my albums had some sort of wax pushed into the grooves.
🙄
I read the article.
They had a dual platter machine to clean the records.
Special vault for storage, lots of care taken.
Fresh paper sleeves before and after playing the record, and wash before playing...BS or not I can't say. 95 dB is impressive.
But anti static carbon brush pick up cartridges, yes, anti static treatment, earthing and so on yes to maybe.
Wrist straps too for those who handled the records?
This was just before CDs became mainstream.
See if you can find the article, satisfy your curiosity.
From Wikipedia...
In 1982, WFMT moved into the digital era, being chosen by Sony and Philips to be the first station in the world to broadcast music from the compact disc format, thanks to the station's reputation for high audio standards.[40][2] The station broadcast material from Digital Audio Tape for the first time in 1987,[41][42] and was once again chosen by Sony to broadcast from a MiniDisc in 1992,[42] to demonstrate the subtle differences between an MD and a CD. WFMT also broadcasts in HD.[43][44]
The station at least is reputed for high standards, and 'Audio' was well known then, no reason for them to publish fake news...
Shure had a cartridge with carbon brush to conduct away static electricity (V15 or Mark V?), so that part is plausible...
I read the article.
They had a dual platter machine to clean the records.
Special vault for storage, lots of care taken.
Fresh paper sleeves before and after playing the record, and wash before playing...BS or not I can't say. 95 dB is impressive.
But anti static carbon brush pick up cartridges, yes, anti static treatment, earthing and so on yes to maybe.
Wrist straps too for those who handled the records?
This was just before CDs became mainstream.
See if you can find the article, satisfy your curiosity.
From Wikipedia...
In 1982, WFMT moved into the digital era, being chosen by Sony and Philips to be the first station in the world to broadcast music from the compact disc format, thanks to the station's reputation for high audio standards.[40][2] The station broadcast material from Digital Audio Tape for the first time in 1987,[41][42] and was once again chosen by Sony to broadcast from a MiniDisc in 1992,[42] to demonstrate the subtle differences between an MD and a CD. WFMT also broadcasts in HD.[43][44]
The station at least is reputed for high standards, and 'Audio' was well known then, no reason for them to publish fake news...
Shure had a cartridge with carbon brush to conduct away static electricity (V15 or Mark V?), so that part is plausible...
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Cool. This seems very similar to the Spin-Clean manual cleaner. It has fine velour pads that clean the vinyl under water. The water then drips off when you take the disk out. They supply a cleaning fluid to mix with distilled water, I don't know what is in it, but it works a treat.
I can see your method being very similar, which your added step of using the carbon brush after the stylus has bumped the dirt out of the grove. I do the same.
I can see your method being very similar, which your added step of using the carbon brush after the stylus has bumped the dirt out of the grove. I do the same.
That's some result when there's no possible way to extract 95 dB from any record, even the very best TTs can't reach 90db.
Calculating the thermal noise of the input 47k termination resistor of the phono stage it yields 3.9 uV. That is -62.2 dB referred to 5 mV. The RIAA de-emphasis improves a few dBs upon it. If we consider the thermal noise of the cartridge, it will give better values, in the range of 70 or so dB. And we did not drop the needle in the groove yet.
See also:
Phono preamplifier acceptable S/N ratio
See also:
Phono preamplifier acceptable S/N ratio
From what you say it seems like the first part of your method does a good job of releasing debris from the grooves. However, I would prefer to rinse the debris from the groove from the record when the cleaning solution has done it's job, rather than have it collect on the stylus and the stylus push it back into the record surface or to drag the debris so it damages the surface like a worn styli.
The cleaning method may or may not be effective, but the explanation of why it works is fanciful.
The main forces that adhere particles to the vinyl are electrostatic and Van der Waals forces. These are orders of magnitude greater than gravity at the small distances involved. Dust particles can sit on vertical and undersurfaces in defiance of gravity for ever (gecko pads are an example of this). In a liquid suspension, particles may or may not clump. It depends on the electrolyte and the particle surface properties. Some suspensions are stable for long periods (colloidal silver) and some agglomerate rapidly (medicines that demand “shake well”). Typical cleaning fluids are in fact designed to keep particles in suspension, contrary to the assumption of clumping described in this method.
Nevertheless there may be some element of the cleaning method that is effective where others have been unsuccessful. I wish I knew what it could be.
Like many others, I have in my collection, LP’s that I love, but have resisted every cleaning method I have tried. For records like these, there is little to lose, I suppose.
On more occasions than I like to admit, I have found a dead quiet replacement that sounds worse. The odd crackle is preferable in comparison.
There was a cleaning solution for developed film, which was later substituted by a very small amount of liquid dish wash soap.
It made the droplets some off the film. leaving it clean. liquiflo or something it was called.
The point here is that the grooves transmit vibrations to the stylus, which is then processed to sound signals.
Dirt in any form makes the sound dirty.
So keeping the surface clean from the start is the best way to go.
It made the droplets some off the film. leaving it clean. liquiflo or something it was called.
The point here is that the grooves transmit vibrations to the stylus, which is then processed to sound signals.
Dirt in any form makes the sound dirty.
So keeping the surface clean from the start is the best way to go.
You are thinking of wetting agent used in film developing - Photoflo, Ilfoflo, etc. Not a cleaning solution, designed so the water runs off and doesn't leave drying marks on the film. Often a small amount is added to record cleaning solutions for the same reason, detergent is often used as a more commonly-available substitute.
Actually the camera repair groups I am part of say that the film companies have stopped making that solution, and film production is dwindling.
Some discussion was about the most suitable detergent to be used instead.
Caffenol, a coffee based developer, is being used by some photographers who do their own darkroom work...
Some discussion was about the most suitable detergent to be used instead.
Caffenol, a coffee based developer, is being used by some photographers who do their own darkroom work...
Most of the particles are long gone (these records had been through a number of hand and machine-based cleaning regimens), I think what I was dealing with was a waxy film layer. Certainly some particles were caught in this I imagine.
But the clumps I was getting were absolutely waxy.
Someone used Pledge or Brylcreem or something of the sort, on their album(s). I know this sort of thing is sometimes done to shine-up albums before selling them, but these didn't all come from the same source, it may have been an innocent experiment to quiet them, I don't know. They had dust on them when I acquired them, but they were otherwise minty looking, I don't think the treatment was recent. I trust the store owners in the cases of the ones acquired locally to not have had any idea, I'm sure they were visually graded and set out.
The point of the method is to approach something similar to paint stripping, where the goal is to keep the stripper on the paint long enough for it to work. Vacuuming alcohol that is part of RCM fluid doesn't really give it much of a chance, and the concentrations are often fairly low (if any alcohol is used at all).
What I on reflection realize I should have done, is have them cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner with vinegar in the mix. The ultrasonic cleaners to which I had access were not intended to be used with vinegar, I don't believe. They have pumps and filters and probably are not friendly to significant concentrations of acids.
Honestly I don't know whether the non-automated ultrasonic tanks are that friendly to vinegar. It could solve a lot of record cleaning issues, as any waxy or greasy stuff, as well as any scale from tap water (a fairly common problem I believe), should benefit from vinegar.
Understood.
In hindsight, as I've indicated in another response, I think these albums all suffered a similar sort of waxy stuff in the groove. I don't think the film was the same on all of them, but similar enough to have a very similar sound.
The only other albums in my collection that just won't come clean I'm sure have scale from the use of tap water. Think the inside of your coffee pot.
In a few cases I can hear a static/swoosh that increases at the same spot on the record on both sides, louder towards the lead-in, as if the record was washed at the sink using water higher in solids, and then left vertical to finish drying. So the water likely accumulated at the bottom on both sides. That is my working theory.
In a few cases I hear a constant static/swoosh throughout the entire album. These I imagine were cleaned by someone that ran out of Discwasher fluid and refilled their bottle fromm the tap. And since the fluid was now cheap, they used more.
I have successfully quieted both types in the past using vinegar, but I really find the odor off-putting. So I have been trying lower concentrations and I'll see where that takes me, but I may just give-up on these types of albums.
I had previously looked into submersion in vinegar, but the problem is the label protectors have rubber seals and my research seems to indicate a lot of rubbers will be attacked by vinegar.
So I'm thrilled about half the albums I had previously written-off now are very listenable and will probably improve with play, but I may give up on the rest for at least a while.