I do not have a system drawing after I added a dedicated computer just playing and processing music and changed the speakers to include midbass. Player is now placed it in the amp room with fiber spdif or USB coming from sources. I "remote desktop" into the music computer, from other rooms. but this is not user friendly, BUT it removed approx 100 meters of signal wire.
Below is a overview of the first version,when the line drivers and crossovers was placed in Livingroom for adjustments and I did not have midbass. And yes due to active crossovers and the need for different eq curves and also then amps, for all 4 speaker location, there is a lot of wires. I marked some cables wrong, and then it was a nightmare to fault find. But not sure I would call it a hodge podge (had to google that one)
Below is a overview of the first version,when the line drivers and crossovers was placed in Livingroom for adjustments and I did not have midbass. And yes due to active crossovers and the need for different eq curves and also then amps, for all 4 speaker location, there is a lot of wires. I marked some cables wrong, and then it was a nightmare to fault find. But not sure I would call it a hodge podge (had to google that one)
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And one comment.. yes I made some miscalculations and had some holes in my driver knowledge, and it could have been done cheaper if planned much better from day 1. But the system, as it plays now, is truly impressive. I have made more sophisticated stereo systems that played better for one person sitting in the correct spot with sound treatments at 1 reflection and so on.. But to be able to play this loud, from a almost completely invisible or hidden system, in all rooms except hallway and sleeping rooms, makes even experienced hifi and sound enthusiasts walking around in the house trying to figure out where the speakers are and how I did it
So it has a high "wow" factor for sure. Just have a look at the subwoofer output linearity (design goal was 28-70 hz) and the signal shaping (flancks) in this video, its in Norwegian but the sweep (25-100 hz) is played from 0:45 seconds and at 0:47 til 1 min 5 sec, it gets the job done, but below and above design frequency its almost silence due to brickwall filter design.
The drivers are cheap Kickers at 100 Euro each for the 15" sub and less for the 12" midsbases mounted under the sofas. I made my own modules to the couch, which are hidden midbass. The ASUS soundcard played good, but had only 8 channels and only 4 dBV output, now I use a semi professional interface with balanced or regular output on all 10 (+2 headphone dacs) channels at 18dBV
Thanks again for all the support
So it has a high "wow" factor for sure. Just have a look at the subwoofer output linearity (design goal was 28-70 hz) and the signal shaping (flancks) in this video, its in Norwegian but the sweep (25-100 hz) is played from 0:45 seconds and at 0:47 til 1 min 5 sec, it gets the job done, but below and above design frequency its almost silence due to brickwall filter design. Thanks again for all the support
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Hello Billshurv & Nashbrd, Yes positive, as the americans say. A quick Google search will tell you, so no need for a long post from me. I left the audio industry about 15 years ago, but even back then the amount of speaker manufacturer who made all their own drivers was rapidly decreasing. I have not investigated this, but based on statistics, which tells that also during the last decade, there has been a significant rise of Asian companies doing all sorts of OEM manufacturing for others. If not already happened, it will not be long before in house manufacturing of drivers is lower in numbers , also for the big well known brands incl high end markets than the amount of own produced drivers.
What surprises me , after reading some posts here and other websites, is that there seems to be lot of people with opinions like OEM drivers are of lesser quality then a driver made by the "cabinet and crossover maker".. actually I would have thought of it opposite, that a true technology driven driver manufacturer would be better? When you evaluate a speaker, you are by default evaluating the totals, meaning the performance of the cabinet, crossover design and its components and drivers working together, and not one of the drivers.
But this is far outside the post, so I will end it by naming some examples. One of the famous one are when the super high quality brand Wilson Audio, was proudly presenting their new driver line up, and a journalist(?) took this picture: ( I added the magnified part of the trashbin full with Focal paper boxes on the right)
Luckily their reply was the only one which made sense and good enough for this to become a "no news" story, it was also the truth. They replied something like " Wilson Audio is proud of having (some of) our drivers manufactured by Focal, a highly regarded specialist company in the field of audio. Together we have almost 100 years of experience and product development.." or something very similar. Others from the top of my head, Seas are OEM manufacturer for Sonus Faber, Dali, ZTX, Tandberg and many more.. To my knowledge either Vifa/Peerless or Scanspeak have manufactured own speakers with commercial success, Klipch used to buy horns and drivers from Hepneer before they bought their supplier. You might even never heard of one of the largest in the world, Fink Audio, designing complete loudspeaker designs for Tannoy, Mission, Volkswagen/ Audi , Q Acoustics, Naim, and some Mordaunt Short models. Some claim that Totem Audio makes better speaker with Dynaudio drivers than Dynaudio.. Kef makes speaker for Apples Iphone and Polk makes the Google home speaker.. And often you will hear "made after our specifications" a term that is used on everything from different color but also a small change like foam vs rubber suspension. Focal stamps Wilson on the basket, that is a "made after our specs" in the marketing world. I will stop there. But this makes sense, and is good for the consumer, developing new products are expensive, so when B&W, JBL or Harmon Kardon spends millions on developing a speaker, you can be pretty certain they re use in as many applications as possible. Will not touch upon Sony and Clarion Car Audio, since they both are former employers, but you can probably imagine how proud we where at Clarion when they bought US based McIntosh. I use amplifiers with powerguard from both Clarion and McIntosh in my system still. The mac has been running since iy was given to me in 1998, never broken down. But the same is true for a couple of Rockford Fosgate, A/D/S and Cadence amps, still running flawlessly with more than 100000 hours in "ON" state. Amazing build quality.
thanks
brg Simon
PS! This was written on the train, mostly pulled from memory, and very likely it has a mistake or two + the list of manufacturers that makes their own driver is far from complete. Still it serves its purpose.
If you are positive then you will have no problem giving some examples of top of the line speakers from a company that use same drive units as bottom of the line.
BTW I've known Wilson Audio use Focal drivers since about 1987 as the Watt Series 1 used them. no 'news' there at all and never a secret (read any review of wilson speakers other than the WAMM).
Btw you said
BTW I've known Wilson Audio use Focal drivers since about 1987 as the Watt Series 1 used them. no 'news' there at all and never a secret (read any review of wilson speakers other than the WAMM).
Btw you said
then typed another 400 words, mainly ranting...
I find the OEM part is acceptable, the assembly of speakers may still be by hand rather than automatic.
Or otherwise labor intensive, so it is made by suppliers who may in turn have many clients.
Fink apparently has EIGHT (!) employees, and is a well known speaker designer, for Tannoy among others.
But to say the same size speakers, whether high or low output, are all the same, that is difficult to accept.
By the same thinking, a JBL with titanium / carbon polymer cone, Nomex coil former, special coil, expensive magnet, and so on is the same as a workshop on the street making speakers from the cheapest possible parts.
He has done something wonderful, take the wind out of the speaker fanatics, in a way the audio cables are all the same argument works.
I did say earlier that the man is super intelligent, or below average intelligence.
Or otherwise labor intensive, so it is made by suppliers who may in turn have many clients.
Fink apparently has EIGHT (!) employees, and is a well known speaker designer, for Tannoy among others.
But to say the same size speakers, whether high or low output, are all the same, that is difficult to accept.
By the same thinking, a JBL with titanium / carbon polymer cone, Nomex coil former, special coil, expensive magnet, and so on is the same as a workshop on the street making speakers from the cheapest possible parts.
He has done something wonderful, take the wind out of the speaker fanatics, in a way the audio cables are all the same argument works.
I did say earlier that the man is super intelligent, or below average intelligence.
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Yes, all these has happen. Changing source also, (Google Home or a phone with Spotify) or me forgetting the HP filter in the APO config file
, several of these has killed tweeters. Since there are no passive crossover parts, nor any power eating resistors, between the amplifier and the tweeters they fail very easily.According to your posted pictures, you're using 12 - 15 cm mid drivers with 25mm VCs (System was designed using the 2x G17REX or G17RE from 80Hz and up, in each speaker, it had super specs when I bought them (in 1995
ods of time until power compression takes over and the volume goes down. That will happen at about 105 dB (I measured spl of one pair to approx 100 dB given 15W each and close to 115-117 given 500W) sheet says 88.5 dB SPL 1W,1M) I use a limiter but not compressor, should I?) , drop within about 30 min or so from that level to about 100 dB. I would at least add a midbass to make this a 4 way system to distribute the power more away from the smaller mids. 200 Hz mid crossover point is reasonable for a small 3 way in an average home audio setting, but not for those volume levels with that small, of a driver, VC and that output level. The tweeter crossover of 2.5k is also too low for that small of a VC at those levels. /Yes 2 of them are made 4 ways so far, the other will come. And since at my 12 pc of G17R 6.5" are now dead, after nearly 27 years of use!! I changed to the B&W for mid)
The typical 25mm dome can only handle 15 to 20 watts over a longer period of time before burning up. Realistically speaking, it will do roughly 103 dB for a while until it gives up... maybe a little longer if it has ferrofluid, but not by much. You need ro raise the crossover point to about 3.5k and use a steeper HP slope along with a limiter and maybe a poly switch for safe measure. (Crossovers are what ever you like, but some limitations in the GUI for APO, but not in the program, and it accepts plug ins and convolution filters. Originally tweeter settings for the Seas was 3500 with 24 db/oct slopes, this was changed to 2500 with 196 dB slopes, because it made the crossover function much better no bumps, .there was some good suggestion for better suited tweeters earlier. )
Those kevlar B&Ws are tough mids. They use good materials in the VC and have very high temp capable windings. They won't defy the laws of physics though if you cross them too low and play them too loud for too long. They can handle about 100 watts each for a while above 400hz, maybe for an hour or two, but again here power compression becomes an issue. The rule here is simple. If you hear any distortion, you're abusing the driver and the rest is obvious. (and that was exactly what happened, I was missing 6-9 db midrange, and turned the gain up too much on the amp, accepting some distortion, feeding the speaker too much power.
The VC diameter has alot to do with thermal power handling. Thats why pro drivers have larger diameter coils with better venting. Midbass drivers have a very large concentration of power to deal with and very little VC movement (unlike a sub driver), so the coil relies mainly on convection and heat radiation into the motor and basket to shed heat. A subwoofer has alot of VC excursion at higher power levels which help direct alot of air around the VC and cool it effectively. (for tweeters I use 2x Fs as a rule of thumb, but added almost an octav to that here. . Seas promises short term power handling at 200W when using min 2500hz 12 dB/oct). I will try 400, but to me that sound very high, but used to cas audio. Thanks again for you help brg Simen
One things for sure - your dB SPL ideas, aspirations and estimations are .... wrong. And silly. And amateurish.
And by posting car UT videos... you troll status is confirmed.
//
- How far form the speakers have you measured the figures you are stating?
- The drivers you use cost maybe 5€ to produce. Realise that.
- You are not experienced - or you would not be in this situation to begin with.
And by posting car UT videos... you troll status is confirmed.
//
He says he has been doing this for 30 years.
Wonder how much damage he has caused.
Some people never learn....
I know somebody who is a Diploma Engineer, which means 3 years polytechnic, after 10 years in school, if you hear him talk, you are convinced he is very smart.
Unless he comes up against someone with a degree, which is 4 years college after 12 years in school.
There are standards for sound level and so on, and the equipment has to be calibrated.
So I must see a report which mentions the standard followed for testing, and the equipment used.
And the results must be repeatable at another lab or measurement area.
This guy is a foolish person talking off the top of his head.
Sadly, this is becoming the standard in some countries, as education is not seen as important as earlier.
Wonder how much damage he has caused.
Some people never learn....
I know somebody who is a Diploma Engineer, which means 3 years polytechnic, after 10 years in school, if you hear him talk, you are convinced he is very smart.
Unless he comes up against someone with a degree, which is 4 years college after 12 years in school.
There are standards for sound level and so on, and the equipment has to be calibrated.
So I must see a report which mentions the standard followed for testing, and the equipment used.
And the results must be repeatable at another lab or measurement area.
This guy is a foolish person talking off the top of his head.
Sadly, this is becoming the standard in some countries, as education is not seen as important as earlier.
You can even remove "halogen"...
to reduce the voltage and ampere (power) going to one or several tweeters I would reduce the level from on the dacs for those channels with 2-15 dB (example), or turn down the input sensitivity on the preamp feeding the channel(s). Usually turning down input gain on the amplifier would also do the trick, but mine are all set to minimum. (signal level is +16 to 20dBV (or approx 5-9 volt average with 16 volts peaks for those you prefers volts)I have posted that I probably can do SPL max measurements , if somebody please tells me how!!!, or where I can find it?. But I tried just using " common sense" and no weighting, mic set up and placement is very easy to see in the picture or videos. I am used to making room measurements, not nearfield speaker measurement But answer is 80 cm for mid/twee and 150 cm for sub??? I guessed on a really close distance so you would measure the speaker and not also the room. But should i measure max?, a sinus? a burst? a sweep? how long do I need to play the test? which distortion is okay? I do not know these, and can therefore not produce a correct measurements. Any help here is very appreciated, thanks
your second question: I consider myself a hifi enthusiast, and spends a lot of time on it, but still answer is no.
I have not calculated the amount of money the speaker manufacturer spends on the parts. And your 5E might be correct, for the parts needed to build a decent 5" ferrite/polypropylene/stamped steel basket design with a foam suspension. And again, without doing the real numbers, I guess that it is not enough to any R&D or testing, making the documentation and more. I use a pair of Phillips 6.5" midbase woofers but with paper cone, which I bought for 40Euro a pair (car audio on sale), still they sound and measure good in the range they play (80-250Hz).
I have not calculated the amount of money the speaker manufacturer spends on the parts. And your 5E might be correct, for the parts needed to build a decent 5" ferrite/polypropylene/stamped steel basket design with a foam suspension. And again, without doing the real numbers, I guess that it is not enough to any R&D or testing, making the documentation and more. I use a pair of Phillips 6.5" midbase woofers but with paper cone, which I bought for 40Euro a pair (car audio on sale), still they sound and measure good in the range they play (80-250Hz).
Thanks for your reply, it has been discussed and fuses was chosen temporarily . But i think this is a type of solution you can choose if you have other specs and problems. Typically having one large amp covering a larger area than what is possible with one driver (for your spl design level) , so you have to reduce the output to the tweeter compared to the woofer in the passive crossover, using 2 resistors preferable, but also even using a bulb. In real loud sections of the music , with a lot of power, the right sized bulb will increase its resistance , due to the rise in temp, but when "abuse" is over, cool down, and pass more of the signal through again. So it will most likely protect your tweeters against a clipped signal or way to much power in a short periode. But it is not the problem I had.
Okay now I understand that I can remove some of the txt in rewritten in reply, have not done that sorry.
As a friendly advise I think maybe you also should reread the term and rules section. But will spend 4 min quickly replying to what you write :
Wonder how much damage he has caused. - a lot
Some people never learn.... - and not even from own mistakes
I know somebody who is a Diploma Engineer, which means - I think this is irrelevant, but have a shortened resume posted on linkedin as most people. But please have in mind that it does not tell about hobbys nor describes me from a audio perspective. Here is a guest link, pls let me know if it does not work: https://no.linkedin.com/in/simen-ringstad-4a51672b/no?trk=people-guest_people_search-card and yes "There are standards for sound level >Great pls give them to me, see other post, I have been asking just ten min ago but also before, And "and the equipment has to be calibrated" It is enough that the measure microphone has a correction document that tells its linearity flaws. Mine has not been calibrated for maybe 5 years, is 25 years old, but it was the type used in early days of dB drag (limit is 130) it was crazy expensive like 2000 Euro in 1991, and still will never be accurate, but it is a DIY audio forum and I always double check with a cheap umic usb mic i use with REW, it claims to have a also calibration for spl max. but have not looked in file, but they do measure almost exactly the same, I trust the results to be fairly accurate. The problem is the guy using it.